86White_T/A305

With the popularity of ls swaps on here..and turbo builds Im wondering if some of you more experienced swappers/builders would be willing to build and sell more of your turbo hotsides for people less fortunate to do it themselves...like me lol.

Ive contacted a few of you privately in messages in regards to my own personal build but maybe its time to start opening this up as a future gain for us all.So I pose the challenge out there for someone to build something thats "simple". Most of us are using stock k members,fbody accs with alternator in stock location,stock rad with dual fans. I think a log style manifold keeps things neat and not occupy space would be ideal,turbo size mostly used has been a t4 located around the passenger side by the coolant reservoir.Piping probably doesnt need to be anything over 2.5.

Thoughts?

shawnc16

A twin setup would be a lot easier to package if everything is staying in stock location. Stuff the turbos by the battery trays. It could be done but I doubt there's much of a market for it.

project89

iTrader: (1)

i can build log headers for twins easily
unfortuantly i dont have an ls series engine to build around

NemeSS-TyranT

iTrader: (1)

A few yrs ago. I built a pass side top mount header. To market for ls swaps in 3rd gens. But there weren't as many 3rd gen swaps as there is now. I built it in 07-08 when Ibuilt my first 3rd gen swap. I sold about 3 plus the original. So 4.
And all the 3 I sold locally. I also built the swaps for the cars. I re configured it for trucks.
I still got the jig for it. And ive built a few for trucks.
But im more involved in building a setup to use a gt500 sc on the 4.8/5.3 cathedral port motors. Pretty much got the prototype built. Just waiting on parts for my 4.8 to fortify it so i can max out the sc as much as possible. Im shooting for 500- 550rw without meth.
Anyone that knows. Hitting that on a n/a 4.8/5.3 w h/c/i is a tall order without spray.
Ive always been a big believer in the 4.8/5.3. And not everyone wants a turbo on one.
But to answer the original question. I didnt find a market for them at the price i had.
100% built out of tigged stainless with rotating t4 flange. All vbanded hotside. And both sides tubular headers. Not a big fan of logs. Although ive built em.
I like the aesthetics parts n workmanship. So maybe the price was higher than the market wanted. But no bigs. I still build plenty of hotsides.
Been doing mostly mustangs.

BDR

Sounds like a winner! If I wasnt doing my own, thats the kind of fabricator I'd want working on my stuff.

I use logs, they work. They're not as pleasing to the eye as something fabbed up, but definitely work. The "aesthetics parts n workmanship", yup..ditto! Anyone who's looked at 3rd gens and DIY stuff has seen some very ugly as hell welds, fab jobs etc. I'm by no means an expert and there will definitely be some stuff I can improve on, but the one thing is..if its ugly, I'm not going to post pics on the net until its done right, looks decent and is functional.


86White_T/A305 prob wants logs because the "only thing" that needs to be done is add a v-band, make sure it clears wp/ps etc. If I had an LS in a 3rd gen with all accessories (mine doesnt), I probably would give it a shot. After I finish mine, I'll look into it.

LS1BADZ28

I think a stainless hotside in the range of $800-1000 would sell very well. I know the market is much larger these days for a turbo LSx swapped thirdgen. Hell, the 4th gen turbo swaps just became crazy popular a couple years ago.

I'd like to buy one also.

RS/SS 4.8

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=project89;5858030]i can build log headers for twins easily
unfortuantly i dont have an ls series engine to build around

What would be the price range if you could. Pm me if u want. Thanks

shawnc16

I think your best bet for a $800-1000 system would be to use the EBay headers that are up and forward. Someone would need to build off of those. $800 is pretty low unless you're buying China stuff.

project89

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=RS/SS 4.8;5858720]im in the middle of doing mockups of up and forwards for gen 1 stuff , i can build these fairly cheap. ill post some pics in a lil bit of the mock ups
if there was enough demand im sure i could get my hand on lsx heads and build the same style for the ls guys , but would need a few measurements from somone with an ls in the car

LS1BADZ28

Vband manifolds can be done for under $200...a crossover shouldn't be more than $7-800

86White_T/A305

Well I suggested logs because of keeping costs down for the average guy looking to get into a turbo ls build.The rise in turbo ls has exploded there is no doubts there.The reason alot of people dont think there is a market for it with a 3rdgen is simply because of price. We all have our budgets. And i completely understand the comment on aesthetics with workmanship and a log defeats that purpose..to a degree. But logs can help with making things a simple bolton system..easier to ship out and not take up alot of room,Vbands would be the way to go imo for the hotside. With logs also take the worry of finding manifolds to modify as some guys have used 1 truck manifold and 1 fbody manifold for builds in the past.

Thats why Im asking you guys your thoughts and seems there are plenty of suggestions .For a entry level hotside kit I see more guys jumping into a turbo ls build on a budget this way and we can all support eachother with a more common setup. I have a stock fbody accy drive and a truck alternator, stock 3rdgen rad and dual tpi fans.Ill measure anything thats needed to the best i can. If someone has a jig already for a decent fitting log setup and a t4 turbo.. how much harder is it to replicate it? Might not be huge profit in it depending on the grade materials used but a $6-800 hot side kits is fair. I think it would sell and be worth someones time.Id be willing to spend that on one of you to build such a kit.

LS1BADZ28

I agree...I have funds waiting for a turbo lsx third gen hotside...

NemeSS-TyranT

iTrader: (1)

If u can get ur hands on 98 fbody manifolds. U could use it to make a cheap log type manifold. There's enuff room to plumb a crossover inlet and turbo outlet on the manifold itself. I've been working on one. But I think its hard to picture it without pics. But its alredy log shaped and big enuff to build out of. See if i can remember to snap some pics.
It would prolly be the cheapest and easiest to build and can even weld it with a good ole mig

shawnc16

These were not $200 manifolds.
I just went and priced out the materials to build these and it came out to about $450. Add in the labor and consumables. I'm at $600 just to build a set of manifolds and making no money. Its all 304 stainless pipe and 1/2" thick head flanges and V bands. That's why I say, build off of the ebay turbo headers. The price cant be beat.

LS1BADZ28

Vband manifolds....not log vband manifolds...

Under $200...not sure if fitment would be better

http://ls1tech.com/forums/parts-clas...uck-based.html

Jay_rich

iTrader: (4)

I would love to build another like mine for people. Only requires the K-member to be notched, which Im sure I coulda got around. But I also do run C5/C6 accessories.

Its built around a GT45 which is farily large comparied to the typical T70-T76 etc. I also built it for Twin scroll so twin wastegates. Which Again I could have built something with a single wastegate but wanted the challenge.

Jay

Z28FAST1

^^^ That looks great!!!



I've thought about modifying this kit($549.00):

http://www.cxracing.com/mm5/merchant...NG-AM-CRUZ-14T




CXRacing Stainless Steel Performance Turbo Manifold Header Kit For 98-02 Chevrolet Camaro with LS1 Motor

Application:
Chassis: 98-02 Camaro
Motor: LS1 Motor
Product Being Sold:

Stainless Steel Manifold/Header Kit with Cross Pipe + Downpipe +Vband Clamps
(Turbo, Wastegate, Intercooler Kit are NOT Included)
This is CXRacing's Newest Products for the Application Stated Above. All Parts Are Developed from Ground Up in Our R&D Center in USA, Designed and Built for Improved Performance Gains, with Excellent Fitment and Easy Installation.

Product Info and Spec:
New Design, Places Turbo in the Front Middle
Keeps Factory Bumper Support Bar
Keeps Factory Radiator (Also Fits Thicker Radiator that is at the Same Location)

Supports T4 Turbo, 50mm Wastegate
2.5" Cross Pipe and 3" Downpipe
Can't Keep AC
Needs to Relocate Alternator to Passenger Side

BDR

I can tell you, that set isnt going to fit a 3rd gen camaro. The drivers side will hit the k-member, along with the pass side.

But yea, it can be done rather inexpensively. That dude's set, he put it together pretty quick, just chopped off both ends and welded v-band flanges to it. It'll work, just not for our cars.

BDR

Yea I agree..both Jay and Shawn have skillz.


I did too, but I didnt know how much modification it would need and at the time, I hadnt even had my crash course on MIG welding.

If you get that kit, post up progress on fitment/modifications etc.

NemeSS-TyranT

iTrader: (1)

^^
Beware on that kit.
I've done repairs on one if the ebay ls pro turbo kit copy.
The bolt holes were all off and had to be enlongated significantly.
Didnt really fit correct. O2 sensor bung was on the cross over and sensor crashed into transmission. All of the vband clamps were of poor quality. Some were under sized.
I laid another bead around the header tubes. Cut on the crossover to rotate the o2 sensor bung. the dp didnt have a bung for the wb02 sensor. The ball and flange section always had a hissing leak. Had to cut it off and weld on vbands. Just what i can remember off the top of my head.

Jay_rich

iTrader: (4)

Similar kits like the Huron ones have been modified to fit but it takes lots of modifications. Pretty well better off starting from scratch. 4th gens have a bit of a wider "frame" rail so when flipping manifolds or using headers like that they clear no problem. I had to cut up truck manifolds to work.

3rdgencamaros

I too would be ready to purchase a hot side ls setup for our cars. Yes we all have budgets but this is where the money can be spent for a long term set up that we can 'grow into' as the engines get bigger with more cubes. Stainless is the way to go.

Jay_rich

iTrader: (4)

If I had a tig welder and more space I would seriously look into cutting from the firewall forward out of a third gen for mocking up kits. A guy on Camaro Z28 did that for LT1 forth gens and sold many kits. I know the guy who has my old 370LS wants me to build him a turbo setup too. Money to be made for sure.

Jay

project89

iTrader: (1)

keep in mind this was a long tube header i had cut up to build a different set of turbo headers out of, then i cut it up again to moch up an up and forward design, so its not perfect since i didnt have fresh tubes or the right bends on some of them, not bad for a long tube header thats been repurposed 2x

but this will give u an idea of the kind of style i could do for the ls swap guys.

i have new flanges and tubing comming this week so once i knock out the good set i can post pictures of those. these are also fairly cheap to build and give good flexibility twards any install wether single or twin turbo



the flange is not bent/bowed my camera has 135* lens so it gives pics that fishbowl effect

project89

iTrader: (1)

most ppl here cant afford stainless, the stainless turbo headers on my v6 car are well over 1,200$ in materials alone for the proper stuff

86White_T/A305

Yes thats true stainless is always the better choice but doesnt have to be stainless and keep material price down.

There are some very nice looking setups on this forum and high level of skills being shown.I think once someone is happy with a prototype jig and some spare time.There is a market to tap into for just a hotside.

Jay_rich

iTrader: (4)

I see there is a demand here but how high would it be? A simple log with a rear crossover using a T70-T76 style turbo would be very basic to make and would be easy to keep costs down as "most" third gen owners are not looking to spend big money on a their cars.

Would the kit be based around AC delete cars? As a DIY item? (like only hotside and a downpipe)

How many would want a Log style using a stock LS1 driver manifold? Basically you would be buying a driver side LOG for a T4 turbo (lets just say a Turbonetics/on3 78mm etc. Not a giant GT45 or Borg T4.) and a crossover pipe that routes behind the oil pan with a flex pipe. Then a 3" downpipe.

Either in stainless or mild maybe 14awg minimum, possibly sch10 for the LOG.

What would someone pay for a log style with a 3" downpipe and you are to supply the driver manifold? Mild or stainless. Lets be realistic also.

The norm to me seems to be in the $750-1000 range for a log and crossover.

Jay

LS1BADZ28

Here's what I think based on my experiences with turbo f-bodies....

-a/c delete should be developed first because that is what the majority of people would want...an a/c kit could be developed later on off the first kit

-if going t4, it should allow room for a BWs400 series turbo, again because that is a very popular turbo a lot of people go with

-stainless is a must nobody wants rusty pipes under the hood LOL

-A downpipe should be left out of the kit because some people want a fender exit and others would want it routed to the back of the car

-if somebody could develop logs or manifolds that cross over in front of the engine may be near the battery tray...I believe that would be ideal for space and downpipe routing...i'm not sure if the radiator would need to be stood up in these cars but that usually isn't a big problem

Manifolds with a crossover usually run $600-1000...way cheaper then a custom fabricator could do locally...also check out Huron speed for their manifolds that run about $400-$500

Jay_rich

iTrader: (4)

Ya huron is killing the 4th gen market for sure. The placement of my turbo will allow a Borg T4 series. But I build that setup for notching the K-member. If I were to build something I would prefer it to be 100% bolt in. I'm sure if I moved the turbo more to the battery tray area it would be do-able. Just harder for a drain (ive had a T6 there before) and there the crossover pipes would be close to the rad depending on the way the turbo is clocked. then it makes the Downpipe a pita. I think to make a 100% bolt in no BS kit would probably need to based around a smaller turbo. With On3 and Turbonetics offering 75mm turbine wheels it allows guys with LS1's to get away with a bit more. Me personally I wouldnt want anything less that that size turbine even on a 5.3L

My current kit is 14awg aluminized mild steel. I was going to use stainless but without owning a tig and being able to back purge I didnt wanna take the chance of it cracking.

Im gonna do some digging to see what it would cost material and tooling wise etc to produce a simple hotside kit. I could do a basic one out of mild with a mig welder but I think to mass produce something even if it was only 5-10 kits Id rather have some done pretty with a tig to have my name behind it. I do however have a buddy that has a tig that is eager into getting into doing some side fab work. If i could rip off a simple kit before my car is complete then make a jig I'm sure he could make a few.

Jay

LS1BADZ28

I made a poll with options for more organized responses.

86White_T/A305

I agree with having a front crossover pipe and to to not include a down pipe since that will depend on fender exhaust or route back to rear exit.

A non ac car using a stock k member is probably going to be the most common setup.As far the radiator and fans might be difficult to account for but I think many of us have a stock 3rdgen rad and lsx swap hoses and stock fbody alternator location.

3rdgencamaros

I agree!

The truck manifolds from Huron look like the ticket to start with V bands. Stock radiator, no AC and stock K member and f body alt with a T4 in front is where I would say is where most 3rd gens would start at or can get to for a kit approach. Stainless please for me! I don't want to pop the hood to rusty pipes

86White_T/A305

Would be hard to tell with me..the pipes will be heat wrapped before install lol.

Jay_rich

iTrader: (4)

Forward facing would have to be fabbed, no way the huron ones would fit. they would run into the steering box and probably kit the passenger side frame rail.

Stainless is a personally preference. Yes I would rather have stainless but either way I would wrap it to keep temps down.

Jay

Z28FAST1

CX racing is about 15-20 minutes from me although I don't know how much R&D goes on there. Also thought about buying a welder and going DIY.

I'm in between a make-over. Need a rollbar to run at the track. Might as well make more HP at he same time (and possibly go auto).

PS, BDR great job on your build.

mdwallace

iTrader: (2)

I'd be interested in a kit that was full bolt in with limited cutting. If somebody builds them soon, if not i'm going to a forged bottom end and going to keep spraying them.

86White_T/A305

If someone was willing to sell their setup right now id lay cash down lol. Ive also been curious as to the 4thgen kits how bad would it be to modify for a 3rdgen car.Cutting pipe here and there..or adding pipe might not be so bad when the kit comes with everything you need.Nobody wants to be the guinea pig though.

BDR

Thanks!

As far as the DIY thing.. Its nice to build one on your own and welding as a skillset is a nice thing to have. You wont have to rely on anyone for fab work, just take your time and practice welding that way its functional and looks good also.

Oh..speaking of CX Racing, I just ordered their 31x12x4 intercooler. So that install is coming up.

NemeSS-TyranT

iTrader: (1)

Good fmic.
Just later down 650 rw w it in a 5th gen w ls3 motor I built a kit for.
Seems to be keeping the iat in check pretty good so far.

NemeSS-TyranT

iTrader: (1)

I'm considering making a forward facing turbo kit for the 3rd gens from nodded existing stainless headers.
All stainless.
Stainless becuz mild steel will rust and ceramic coatings will burn off eventually and are expensive. and the rust will come. It will rust and corrode under the wrap.
The good correct for turbos wrap is expensive.
Stainless has a better resale value. Etc. Etc.
I deal w this on a daily. Not going of opinion or personal preference. Its fact.
Build it right the first time. Pay once cry once. That's my advice.

Rubbercity_Iroc

I'm interested in doing a 5.3 or 6.0 turbo build in my 88 Iroc but I want to keep my a/c. I've seen several build where they used the truck manifolds swapped and forward facing. I'm trying for something similar to this build. Can one of you guys pull this off?

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/ght...staying-alive/

Jay_rich

iTrader: (4)

Thats basically how my setup is now except I didnt have an AC compressor to check for fitment. Im sure it would be tough with truck manifolds, with a log setup it wouldnt be an issue at all. I am hoping to be building some stainless log setups next winter. Looking to get a tig welder after I finish my car up, then possibly next winter taking my setup off and building a new log setup for others. Basically it would be the same as the BBS design setup for SBC 3rd gens.


For those intereste in my current build...
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...ct-d-j-vu.html

Jay

406TPI

iTrader: (1)

I sure wish there was an option for this. I'm trying to figure out how to use the truck manifolds forward and down and still keep A/C and the factory k-member. There is just not alot of room to work in there.

Jay...I like your build! Your going to have a sweet set-up when done. I just looked at your manifold set-up and can tell you that yours would not clear the compressor. It looks like you would need a pretty radical bend coming off the manifold to get around the A/C by my measurements.

Jay_rich

iTrader: (4)

Thanks! Thats what I figured, I think the 4th gens have a bit of a wider rail so when they use forward mani's it clears the compresser bc it shoots out to the rail a bit more. Im really hoping next winter I can make a solution for everyone! Decided to hold onto my AC box incase lol. Maybe Ill try to pick up a Fbody bracket and compressor for testing.

Jay

406TPI

iTrader: (1)

The other solution may be to use an up and forward config, I just don't like the idea of having the heat source up so high in the engine compartment...maybe it's a non-issue?

Jay_rich

iTrader: (4)

With wrapping the pipes its not a huge issue. Sometime a pain if you need to work on the front of the motor though.

What my idea in my head is to use a factory LS1 manifold on the drivers side, build a crossover pipe that would come around the back of the bellhousing like factory, then come up into the back of the driver side (for a log) OR if there is room possible bring the drivers side around the back and up underneath the passenger side manifold and Y in at the turbo.

I really wish I didnt delete the pictures of the second setup. There was a guy selling a C5 vette near me that had it built this way. Pretty slick. Basically looks similer look/routing to a log setup but both banks are independant.

Jay

Rubbercity_Iroc

I'm not stuck on truck manifolds if I can buy headers or what ever type of pipes to keep the a/c I'm all for it.

406TPI

iTrader: (1)

I hear ya. I was considering something like the Trick truck system log for a bit. It merges the drivers side into the passenger side via a crossover in the back under the trans...Seems a little restrictive, but there are guys making decent power with that set-up. The problem with it is trying to get a 3" down pipe and the cross over pipe through the same small opening at the back of the engine compartment.

BDR

Got pics? I'd like to see how much/little room there is in that engine compartment. My setup doesnt have PS or AC so I cant relate.

406TPI

iTrader: (1)

I can't figure out why some company doesn't make a shorty hybrid manifold/log set-up that clears all the f-body accessories without relocating anything. Seems like it would sell like gang busters in the 4th gen/GTO group.