Duke901

Planning on swapping my trans am. I know the early 6.0 had the longer crank shaft so you are limited on transmissions you can run. And heard that some early 5.3 used a lot of oil, is that true? Is there any other 4.8 5.3 or 6.0 to stay away from.

Thanks

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (3)

Nothing wrong with the long crank engines. In some cases they're more desirable as they don't require any adapters or special converters for a TH350/400/700R4.

The only ones you want to avoid are the DOD/AFM engines unless you plan on replacing the cam, lifters, valley cover, oil pump, etc. Those lifters are nothing but problems.

Duke901

When did they start those. I would like to run a 4l60e or go t56 if money works out lol.

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

DOD, AFM, VVT are GEN IV aspects, any 06 and older engine will not have these

5.3's dont burn any more oil and any other engine in the family. Oil consumption is higher for the family, but nothing excessive

Ive got a complete LS1/T56 installed package in the FS forum if you want to skip the work

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

If you are boosting over 700-750 whp, get a later year motor with the strong rods. I think truck motors after 05-06? That i am not sure but they did change. You can/will bend rods at 750whp on early motors

Duke901

Pocket= I would love to get that combo, but I just spent $700 to get my floors fixed.
When its time to get a motor I just don't want to find a deal and it be a bad choice because of year or some problem with that motor.

orr= I don't think I will ever been in that horsepower range lol but good to know.

cam-

There are no "bad" ones, just ones with better factory parts than others. But most of this is moot during a swap anyways as 90% of the cost is not the engine itself but allllllllllllll the supporting parts nec to facilitate the swap itself and get the vehicle LS platform ready. Thats the challenge, the work, and most of the money.

Starting from scratch today with an LS swap its VERY hard to ignore Holley management. For roughly the same cost as a stock converted harness and a tune you can buy the Holley set up with harness and tuning suite PLUS it has pre canned tunes and excellent tuning support so getting up and running has never been easier.

As for what engine to use? Power goals? Got funds? Intended usage of the car?

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (3)

I couldn't disagree more. That's an AWFUL option for someone looking to do a junkyard style engine swap.

cam-

Whats AWFUL about it?

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

Hmmm... I never thought about going aftermarket computer on the swap, is there any disadvantages in doing so? Would simplify things with the wiring you would think and tuning might be easier.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

If you arent doin the tuning yourself most places will charge 400-550 for a tune. Hp tuners costs 650. Harness is 150 ish from ls1 car and you can easily do wiring integration yourself.... Overall not bad idea to stay stock ecm

cam-

As I see it for the uninitiated the Holley ECU and harness is the way to go. I never said it was cheapest, but easiest and BY FAR most feature packed. Theres no rival at the moment

https://www.holley.com/550-604N.asp


Tony the + side to the Holley is for performance enthusiasts its the cats ***. The tuning and software was developed by racers and winning racers at that. It comes with control fro dual inj per cyl and boost control and on and on. Loooooads of goodies plus Davis box compatible etc. The Holley has MUCH to offer over stock in terms of features. Plus the tuning support is solid, which is nice. Pre canned tunes etc.

The stock stuff still gets it done and is street proven and whatnot. It can do almost anything the Holley can but at 100X the difficulty as the tuning suites are not overly intuitive.

Anyways guys its your build and money do as you please. Im just saying if I hadnt done an LS swap before or knew my way around stock systems I wouldnt think too hard before buying the Holley and go. I wish it was an option when I first started into these engines.

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (3)

Junkyard engine swaps are popular because of the low cost. It makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever throwing a $2500 engine controller on a $500 engine. You can acheive the same results with a stock PCM and harness for 1/3 the cost.

cam-

fixed

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Depends on your tuner! Mine is well versed. Got my sbc fired up easily and quickly running on 24x ring ls1 411 sfi conversion with hp tuners. Eventually made 1000 whp, stock electronics. Good tuner makes it worth while. Got to find one in your area before making decision on what system to use

RavenGT

???????

My 2006 Impala SS FWD 5.3 is DOD.

.

cam-

I think you guys are missing the point. None of us are new to this LS stuff so it makes a lot of sense to use the stock systems and the tuner we know etc. Speaking of which anyone who builds one of these and gets the tune done IN ONE SHOT? I want to meet this person and witness this build. In my experience there are a lot of small gremlins that "pop up" over the first year of shake downs especially. Working through a lot of codes and some oddities that are sure to happen with every custom build.

That said since when is tuning a "One and done" procedure? Every hardcore guy I know has his head buried in his laptop between every single pass, let alone each day out.

The Holley systems control most of the fastest LSx stuff out there now and its no because its in anyway "inferior" its quite the contrary.

I run stock stuff as you all know but all Im saying is; If I was starting an LS build from SCRATCH with no LS experience today?

Holley management allllllllllllllllll the way

cam-

One of the oddest LS platforms out there. A true one off engine with the 60 deg V6 bell pattern

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (3)

No, YOU are missing the point. NOTHING self tunes, PERIOD. If you believe otherwise, we'll end the discussion right now. The same tuning effort is needed in getting a stock PCM dialed in as the several different aftermarket "self-tuning" units. And if you're going to spend that much time getting a near $2500 engine management setup right, why not just save the money on a completely capable OEM PCM? Sure there are guys going fast on the new Holley/MSD/etc kits, but they're not running on the automatic tune nor are they using a typical junkyard build. The features that these systems offer are only worth the price of admission in more extreme builds - and let me reiterate that they do NOT use the self-tuning, so that "benefit" cannot be used as an arguement to promote it's value.

cam-

Ahh I see now what has your feathers ruffled. Pre canned tunes are base files to work from. Not at all SELF TUNING there is no such thing that i agree with completely.

There is a lot of advantages to the Holley over stock though. Think platform. LS swap using stock management is hard, harder than most can muster. Then ten years on you want to step up to say the NEW LT1 or 2JZ or whatever the flavor engine of the day is and then what? Your LS swap with stock mgmt is still an LS swap with stock mgmt. Or how about going from a 24x to a 58x ( gen 3 to gen 4 ) which I have done and is just as hard as it would have been starting from scratch where the Holley? Plugs in and fires up. No need for a new ECM and DBW and allllllllll the other crap I had to deal with let alone a STILL non functioning VSS thanks to CanBus issues and SDM crap and where do i stop? You think this is superior to what Holley offers?

With Holley system? Unplug, install new engine, and using a BASE TUNE FILE you can be up and running that day without needing a complete system re-wiring and reconfigure and THEN tune the sucker.

Holley mgmt > stock mgmt

Many many reasons why.

The only area I see Holley lagging in is transmission control but that wont be long and its moot for us stick shift guys or manual VB guys etc.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

For the guys doin a base swap, stock 5.3 or 6.0 or ls1, with stock parts, stick to stock ecm and budget tune from a local shop. Complete major build then consider options.

And an experienced tuner can get most cammed stock bottom end type motors up and running to near 95% full potential in a day of base driving and dyno pulls. Some can do street pulls on wideband. Seen it done that way for many ppl over the years and the setup runs good enough for 90% of the ppl out there

sorrys70

I have an early 5.7 from a ws6 trans am in my car and it has the dreaded #7 piston slap. Avoid that era of engine unless you dont mind the horrendous knocking noise untill it warms up every morning

cam-

I agree with that, for the most part. I think the issue that underlies every build is cost. Tossing money at things usually makes it go easier. I never said Holley system was the lowest buck way to fly, just the easiest and at the moment as I see it, the best. If i was starting new, Id buy it

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (3)

^ This guy gets it. Hell I have a cammed and boosted 5.3 and I still have no interest in the aftermarket systems.

cam-, there are merits to the Holley system as it's a very capable unit. However, that isn't the discussion. Your recommendation is like someone needing to pull an OBD-II DTC and asking for a simple code reader, and you suggest a $4000 Snap-On Solus.

cam-

Every LS I have ever had has piston slap, its part of life with an LS. Bought many now, brand new even. Lots of em. Alllllll slap, just be sure to warm them up before beating on them is key. My old 4.8 truck slapped so hard people would stare from the sidewalks, never had a blip of trouble with it though.

sorrys70

Well for 60k it was slap free. And now that its there it burns my soul everytime i drive it : (

cam-

I feel that. I bought an 11 Sierra bn and its now starting to slap. The gen 4 dont slap as bad as the genIII do in my experience.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Never noticed any slap in my 128k mile ls1 so far and my 60k 6.2 gen iv. Knock on wood

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

Good points all around, I understand both arguments a bit more now. Since I've been messing with gm computers over the last 12+ years off and on with my car, I got to admit I'm getting kind of sick of the complexity of it all and something little more user friendly would be nice change for awhile. I've had a look through some of the Holley stuff on my computer and seemed simple enough though I haven't had a chance to study the LS tuning software yet. From what Cam is saying, it's sounding like more of the same complexity though. Unfortunately for me getting a tuner is not a option so everything I'll have to do myself.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

So, I got interested in the Holley HP LS1 "plug and play" kit because I'm pretty much sick of fooling with my stock harness (long story). Called Holley to clear up some questions I had.

My thoughts..... Plug and Play my a**!

I was pretty disappointed. No ability to control a transmission. No ability to operate T56 reverse lockout solenoid. No diagnostics whatsoever. No malfunction indicator lamp driver. No ability to use MAF. 4 accessory outputs but you'll use up 3 of them driving a/c clutch and dual radiator fans (and the 4th if you can ever get reverse lockout to work). And only one O2 sensor, not able to use two. And no drive-by-wire if you want that.

Upside is the self tuning is the real deal. They had a professional tuner set up a car and run a dyno pull. Then they ruined the fuel maps on purpose and let it self tune. Within three dyno pulls the car was running just as well as with the professional tuner. But honestly, in my opinion a system without diagnostics is a system able to destroy your engine. This isn't for me.

Kyle86

iTrader: (1)

Interesting, so you are running a 24x ls1 trigger wheel on an SBC with stock ls1 electronics? That's badass if I didn't read that wrong. Pics?

Kyle86

iTrader: (1)

Dude if you want all that stuff still then obviously the stock ECM is the best choice. It's plug and play and also does all of the things you mentioned. The holley is more a hotrod and race-car computer. BTW most ECMS on the market have self-tuning in the software even my megasquirt has self tuning. I don't think the diagnostics is a big deal, I would be more critical of it's data logging capability. Also figuring out a way to control all the other stuff you're talking about isn't that hard I wouldn't think except the DBW.

Kyle86

iTrader: (1)

Lots of great knowledge in this thread from some smart guys, thanks for the great read. BTW for what it's worth,

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

LOL! I didn't know we could do that. Learn something every day!

cam-

Interesting thread and really it goes to show theres no one and done solution to please all of us. Its good to have options and we have many now and I agree that Holley system is a more serious piece of kit, more race oriented I get that. I just feel it would have been a lot easier for me than figuring out the stock stuff when there was little to no support, it was very tough to do back then. As for the self tuning thing? I know its sold as such, but I dont really recommend relying on that aspect.


Auto guys transmission control is something to think about. My builds have been manual so i was only after an engine controller.

Also worth mentioning that my next build is still running stock stuff with HpTuners. Thats what I learned and it does work, but im still learning and have lots more to learn as well. Lots and lots of things to work through with so many tuning parameters in the stock ecms. But it dure does work

Kyle86

iTrader: (1)

I totally agree that the Holley setup would be easiest to learn over a stock ecu and it would be easier and cheaper in the longrun on a "ground up" type build. If you were to get all the parts together (engine, trans, ecu, harness, etc) I would consider the stock ecu and efilive or hptuners for price and practicality. However even if the only the engine can be controlled with the holley or fast fuel injection systems there are still ways of keeping the automatic shifting. One solution is to shift using a separate controller. I know that Optishift is one that is commonly used to control 4l60e and 4l80e transmissions and is now sold under the name US Shift.

http://www.usshift.com/index.shtml

Also there is a firmware for megasquirt computers called MEGSHIFT that is programmed to control 4l60e and 4l80e transmissions too. That is DEFINATELY NOT a plug and play option, but it's worth mentioning that it is there.

http://www.msgpio.com/manuals/mshift/index.html
http://www.msgpio.com/

cuisinartvette

Some of the early 5.3 had a head porosity issue they slowly use coolant. I cant remember which casting # it is just read about it a few times
04 up pretty sure they used better rods

Have an 02 truck with the 5.3 I bought new
It has the noisy lifter syndrome piston slap and uses a little oil
Almost 160k and still runs great think at some point it may be time to dig into it though 1 lifter isnt sounding all that hot. I drove that thing like a rented mule I mean HARD first 60k of its life....these things really hold together

Never had the valve covers off it

shawnc16

I paid $1450 complete for my Holley HP EFI setup.. I was close to that with stock ECU and added features I needed to run my setup. The Holley system is a no brainer if you ask me. My car is just a pile of junk 10 sec strace car, nothing special

NemeSS-TyranT

iTrader: (1)

9/10 swap guys are good w the factory PCM and harness(modded or aftermarket)
A turbo swap I just finished for a guy is making 660rw thru a th400 and buiOK 8.8. W a 4.8
He was worried about all these non features and imaginary problems w the stock pcm.
Somebody else he was dealing with at first made it seem like the holley was the only way to go. Drives the car anywhere on sd tune. He's out of injector. Or else would try for 700.Hes in it for bout 1300$. For harness/PCM/dyno tune/wb02 and gage.
Motor is a 06 4.8 w 799 heads. C5 ls1 intake.fbody tb.reworked ls1 injectors that are 55lb. Iirc.psi harness.stock pcm.btr springs and pushrods.
Works ok.

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Its the 706 heads you're thinking of. They were cast in two different foundries and one had thin spots near the pry tab which tended to crack into the waterjacket without warning. 5.3 heads are so cheap/common its a non issue. Just replace it if it gives you trouble

Id wager alot more than that are fine with OEM stuff

cam-

Theres also the megasquirt stuff if you want to go REAL low buck, from what ive read it works well.

Of course theres F.A.S.T. Xfi and BigStuff3 as well

Steve Mack

iTrader: (5)

Latest Jegs catalog has plug and play computer set up for any Ls motor.The set up is straight from GM.cant beat it for around $1000.Comes with Maf and drive by wire gas pedal.The early Ls motors had piston slap for two reasons.The first series did not have offset wrist pins,they were straight up so the pistons would rock in the cylinder bore.The second series motors GM used low tension rings to get better mileage.This created a problem with high oil usage.These problems are well documented in the early LS motors.The low tension oil rings caused ring flutter on deceleration causing the ring to lose contact with the cylinder bore.Some C5 Corvettes were using a quart of oil every 500 miles.

Kyle86

iTrader: (1)

You're right about the 706 heads leaking coolant. Happened to a buddy of mine's 5.3 Tahoe. They supposedly hold up fine power wise but prone to crack under the valve cover near the pushrod holes if I remember correctly.

That 02 5.3 is just getting broken in. Better put some boost on it while it's in the sweet spot

BTW 5.3s had oil consumption issues but it's from the pcv valve. It sucks up too much oil and sucks it down then intake manifold. Every one I've seen has oily carbon buildup in the head's intake ports. GM at some point changed to a PCV restrictor which is just a small hole instead of an actual spring valve. I've got some regular cheap plastic fuel filters inline with my pcv valve to keep an eye on things LOL

cam-

PCV/oil vapor is a common known problem to LS engines. A lot of times its gunked up rings causing excessive blow by which increases oil vapor in the crank case and the vicious cycle starts....




Personally I have yet to have one single oil vapor issue with any of my builds/vehicles with LS power. I think its because I run them pretty aggressively which most would worry about causing damage meanwhile it seems to be the ticket for lack of oil vapor and longevity. Frequent oil changes here as well. Could also just be fortunate with good engines