live4formula

I have seen several threads about the production numbers and I have heard people say there were thousands built. I have heard claims that there were only 42 built in 1989. Car and Driver Magazine claims there were less than 50. It appears there are 166 thousand members on this site. Does anyone else own a 1989 Firebird Formula with the LB9-MM5 (5.0L TPI - 5 speed manual) drivetrain?

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

There were 16,670 Formulas built in 1989 - are you alleging that 16,620 or 16,628 of them were automatics?

live4formula

No. They also made 5.0L throttle body with 5 speed manual. I am making no claims as there is no documentation. I am trying to find out how many were built. If 500 people on here have owned one, I will accept there were more than 42 built. I have only seen three in 25 years, which leads me to believe 42 is possible.

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

1989, if you didn't know this already, was the highest year of Formula production.

Lets try this another way, how about you provide the source for your speculation and we go from there?

live4formula

http://www.firebird4sale.com/product-history.html This article refers to the Car and Driver article claiming there were less than 50. I also have a copy of that March 1990 issue of Car and Driver


http://www.camarozone.com/forum/f8/d...1989-a-176009/ This is the guy who claims to have worked for GM and claims there were 42 built.


Both are very skinny pieces of evidence. That is why I am asking if anyone here owns a version of this car. Surely if there were thousands of that combination made, there will be several owners here.


Again, I am making no claims and I am not trying to argue the point. I would simply like to see how many are out there.


Thanks for you input and by all means, if you have any documentation, please share

ray jr

iTrader: (2)

theres a few in here https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/hist...0-g92-5-a.html

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

Just to give you an example from a year we do have data from there were 480 MK6 305 LB9 Formulas built in 1990, a short year of production with only 4,832 total Formulas being produced - so roughly 10%.

I can appreciate you wanting to have a rare 1 of XX car but there were far more than 42 or 50 built.

kymmee

There is documentation that 42 L98 Formula verts were built in 1989. Maybe thats where the number 42 comes into play. Of course those are all automatics.

MJS422

I use to own one of these cars. Just sold it last fall.
Here is the article that has contributed to the speculation and rumors.


With that being said, from my own market research I would say that they are fairly rare, but not less than 50 rare. May be 500 ish if I had to venture a guess.

okfoz

If it was 1990... I might buy it, as it was only a partial year, and there was not that many made... but not 1989... Remember, back in 1989, there was more than 500,000 employees who worked for GM... Just because you worked there does not mean you know everything.

The link to the Camaro page has about 10 problems and I have not read all of the thread. First some appear to know nothing, Second, there is an old old saying "When itching ears want to hear" Which means that you can get any information you want to make your point, but it does not make it true. So many people (myself included) want to hear what they want to hear. 42 or 50 is not a realistic number. And without definitive proof, it is all bunk.

I know for a fact that there were at least 43 Formula 350 Convertibles. I know for a fact that there was 1550 + 5 TTA's. I know for a fact that there was at least 142 GTA or Trans Am Convertibles with the 350. But there never has been any hard number other than a single article that states how many Formula LB9/M5 cars were made. That same article stated that there was less than 50 for any given year... and I own 2 87's... so the article is entertainment, it is not scripture.

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

Thank you John.

BTW, 480 LB9/MK6 in 1990, unknown how many of those with T-tops.

live4formula

I realize it is hard to determine the tone of someone voice when in writing, but you all seem to be offended or pissed off at the idea there could be 42 of 50 of the cars made. I have said several times and I will say it again, I am not claiming that number to be true. I am ASKING if anyone has any information or documentation. Since there doesn't seem to be documentation available, I asked the question How many of the 166,000 members on this forum own these cars. I was merely trying to see if that would indicate a real number. I do not care what the value of the car is. It would be nice to claim the car is one of 42, however that is not why I love the car. I love the care because I had one in 1989 and regretted selling it. I found another one and love it too. I also have a 1969 Buick Skylark that is one of 36,000. It is nothing special in the eyes of many, but it has 16,000 original miles. The first car I owned when I was 16 was a 69 Skylark and this car reminds me of when I was 16. I love the Skylark even though it is not rare. Thanks to all that have responded and presented no more valid information to disprove the number than I have shown to prove the number. Is there another forum or website that I should have asked this question? I was hoping to get valid information from people who are knowledgeable and love these cars as much as I do. I do not understand the sarcasm and responses I am getting.

live4formula

Ray,


Thanks for the link. I scrolled through the thread and found 7 1989 Formula LB9-MM5 cars. I have no idea what that means to the total number, but it is a small number.

JT

iTrader: (1)

I'm not sure. Over the years there's been a lot of people who believed they had a rare car and then got upset when they found otherwise. Some were buyers and some were sellers. You did note that you'd like to claim 1 of 42, so you have an interest in the claim being valid.

The 1989 GTA had about half the production figures as the 1989 Formula. The 1989 GTA shows approximately 366 305TPI/5Speeds. For that reason, I have doubt about the 42 figure on the Formula side.

That there's atleast 7 found on this site, to me, further makes the 42 figure doubtful. Even though we're the largest ThirdGen online community, for over 16+ years, not every owner has visited this site and/or read or replied to such topics to account for their ThirdGen. And that would be nearly impossible to do given the amount of cars built and amount of cars no longer active (junkyard, etc.).

It will be difficult to get any concrete number. GM/Pontiac did not have the best records nor did they keep track of options on top of options. I have some examples of production figures from Pontiac that don't even match each other. The records for 1989 is not publicly available.

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

Another point to mention is that if there are 166,000 members, there are probably only a few hundred active ones.

JT

iTrader: (1)

Actually, way more than that.

live4formula

Thanks for the input JT.

timfitz63

I own one of the '89 LB9/N10/MM5/G80/GM3 Formulas. My own experience tells me these Formulas are uncommon, perhaps bordering on rare. How rare, I guess, is the current topic of debate... Personally, I've not encountered another one -- aside from mine -- in person; and I only infrequently see one advertised for sale. Most other '89 Formulas I've encountered are either the Formula 350 (mandatory automatic transmission) or some combination of the 5.0L engines with automatic transmission. It seems that relatively few 5.0L-equippped Formulas were built during this era with manual transmissions...

I'm speculating here, but perhaps the N10 (dual catalytic converter) option is the key to understanding the fifty-or-less production number claim as it applies to the '89 model year...? Or perhaps the Car & Driver article (which I've cited on occasion, given it seems to be the only published reference source available on on this topic) is not referring to cars built prior to the 1991 model year (the subject of the article)...? Frankly, I don't know...

In the case of the former: based on what I've read on this and other F-Body forums, the N10 option only became available at the end of the '89 production run, despite being advertised in Pontiac literature as going hand-in-hand with the LB9/MM5 or L98/M30 combinations for the entire model year. So it's conceivable that fewer than fifty LB9/N10/MM5 Formulas were produced due to the late introduction of that option.

live4formula

Thanks for the response Timfitz63. You may be onto something with reference to the Car and Driver article. The N10 exhaust did add horsepower and the article refers to the HP with the N10 exhaust. With that being a late year add, it could be that the 42 number is for LB9. MM5, N10 combination. The bottom line is "it's on the internet. It must be true"! Whether it is 1 of 42 or 1 of 4200, everybody that sees the car says they have never seen one before. The bonus is that it is a blast to drive!

timfitz63

No worries. It's a shame the Car & Driver article wasn't written more clearly; I've been reading that passage for 25 odd years now and it's still difficult to interpret the author's meaning.

I encounter the same sort of thing: wherever I go, F-Body aficionados seem to eye my Formula with interest; most tell me they've rarely (if ever) seen one with a 5-speed.

live4formula

One situation with my original car still resonates with me. I took the car to a large Chevy dealer for a sensor issue when the car was about 5 years old. The Pontiac dealer I bought the car from had gone out of business. When I picked the car up that afternoon, the service manager came to me and asked if I special ordered the car with that combination. He said he had never seen a Formula that way. I should have held on to the original car! My ex wife insisted I sell it because I had too many cars. That's why she is an EX wife!

okfoz

I am not pissed off or anything, I just like to have information to back up any speculations. I might get frustrated with the conversation, but I am not angry, I reserved anger for my Golf game, so I gave up golf.

If you have not read it, take a look at: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/hist...re-asking.html has what I have found to be reasonably accurate, it is not perfect, but these are at least minimums. They are from multiple sources but they give you a general direction. If anyone could come up with an actual real number, I would be more than happy to add it to the list...

I realize that people think that ALL CAPS is a means to yell, I did not mean to yell, rather I used it for emphasis, because I was too lazy to use Bold or Underline, so I changed it. ?

live4formula

Thanks for the reply. I have read that thread and I even asked about this combination on the thread. I was trying to gather my own data by asking this thread. Unfortunately it turned into everyone disputing the number rather than posting they have one. As a result Rayjr did send me a link to a previous thread that basically answered my poll and there were 7 responses. I have a very OCD personality and it drives me nuts that I cant find the actual number. Maybe someday before I die, we will know the truth (like....did OJ do it?)

89firebird

The 89 LB9/N10/MM5/G80/GM3 Formula combination is indeed difficult to find. I spent about five years searching for one that was in decent shape. I had it shipped over two thousand miles once I found one.

Currently working on restoring it back to original. Not many of our cars left that haven't been butchered.

ray jr

iTrader: (2)

theres a real nice one local to me and the poor guy cant give it away ... real nice car for like 7500.00

MJS422

Is that one Red with gray interior, located in Avon Ohio?

thtanner

iTrader: (1)

I'll take it in a few months

ray jr

iTrader: (2)

been for sale for a little while

http://cleveland.craigslist.org/cto/5699336237.html

ray jr

iTrader: (2)

heres another one but not that nice

http://rockford.craigslist.org/cto/5689592338.html

MJS422

That was my old ride. Sold it last fall. To bad the new owner does not dig it. 😒

thtanner

iTrader: (1)

That must be sad to see.

I'll save it if it's still there after I sell one of my bikes. I'll treat her right.

okfoz

Nice looking car, some things I noticed,

1) the rear wheels appear to be sticking out way too far, I assume it has a 4th gen rear axle. That would drive me crazy, I would have to find a 3rd gen axle and fix it.

2) the nose bird looks too far forward.

okfoz

Again, a nice looking car, but the Formula hood looks so nice, I don't know why people take it off. The cracked lens on the Speedo tells me that someone took the instrument cluster out for one reason or another. I will give the benefit of the doubt that it was to change a bulb. BUT they are not that hard to get in and out without breaking the lens... Someone was careless IMHO. Not like someone is going to lie about 190,000 miles...

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

I wondered what the seller meant by oversized rear axle. That would be it.

B4C5.7

iTrader: (2)

I'm with John, that rear axle would drive me crazy with the wheels sticking out.

kymmee

New owner destroyed the stock look with that axle. When MJS422 owned it, it was stock appearing and very nice.

Hunter21

I have a 89 formula ttops 5 speed 3:42 dual cats deleted LB9 motor is it rare

okfoz

According to Pontiac Records, there was 1126 Formulas with the LB9/MM5/3.45 Gear in 1989
Other years Formula LB9/MM5/3.45
1987 - Data currently NA
1988 - 1047
1989 - 1126
1990 - 353
1991 - Still compiling
1992 - Still compiling

(The 3.42 was introduced in 1990 for the Formula, but the 3.42 was used with the V6 LB8 MM5 cars)

psroberts087