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History / OriginalityGot a question about 1982-1992 Camaro or Firebird history? Have a question about original parts, options, RPO codes, when something was available, or how to document your car? Those questions, answers, and much more!
So most of you are thinking, "1LE TA with T-Tops? Never happened, this 1meanZ guy is an idiot" Or you may be thinking, "this guy is a troll, or the car belongs to his uncles's neighbor's 3rd cousin and has no documentation".
Well first I'll post the paperwork we currently have proving the car is real. Unfortunately the SPID is missing. We have not went in search of the build sheet yet. This is a printout from the GM dealership when we ran the VIN.
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
The Compnine report I ran, also confirms this car as a 1LE with factory T-tops. Could be a 1 of 1. But I have seen another 1LE T/A with T-tops, just can't remember the year.
Jeremy and I and it's new owner have been chatting about this car for a couple of weeks now......
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
OK, so now that the pix are up, here is the story on the car.
A local friend of mine found it listed for sale as a parts car north of Detroit. When he called the owner the guy claimed that he thought it might be a 1LE, but was pretty sure it wasn't because it had the wrong spare tire. My buddy dropped what he was doing and went to pick up the car, he immediately spotted the front brake calipers and ended up bringing it home. He then contacted Charlie and I to help validate the car.
The car was apparently originally sold in Canada, that's about all we know about it's live previous to now. Unfortunately this is one of the rustiest thirdgen I've ever seen. There are holes fore and aft both front shock towers, no drivers floor between the seat studs and firewall, and I'm pretty sure I could break through the windshield pillars with my finger. The rear quarters are hashed, the lower front radiator support is gone, you guys get the idea.
The car is however 99% complete It's only missing it's original N10 dual cat setup. The car is otherwise complete, all the desirable parts are still on the car. It appears to have the original rear axle, suspension etc. The car hasn't run in I think 7 years, we have not yet attempted to get it running, but my buddy was told there were no major issues when it was parked.
We're posting the car here for a variety of reasons. #1 is because we wanted to share this possibly one of one car with the community on here, and participate in the discussion that I'm sure is about to ensue. #2 because my buddy is trying to decide what to do with it. The car is really rough, but at the same time it's gut wrenching to take a car like this apart. The car isn't really being advertised as being for sale at this point, but if someone seriously wants to discuss a purchase please PM me and I'll put you in touch with the car's current owner.
I personally want to hear what people think of the car, hear if anyone knows anything about this car's previous history, hear speculation on how many may have been made, and listen to input on what we should do with the car at this point...
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
I guess one reason why Jeremy posted this, beyond historical significance and interest is, what should the new owner do with this car? The car is a rust bucket and it was bought as a parts car. When we discovered it was an actual 1LE t-top car, we thought someone might be interested in restoring it.
Jeremy can chime in on it's rust issues - they are substantial.
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
Does it still have the RPO sticker in the glove box? That would be cool to see if you don't mind posting it.
I never realized you could get the other power options like power windows, locks, mirrors, rear defog, cruise, etc. Looks like it just missing the A/C ?
Last edited by F-body-fan; 12-23-2015 at 12:21 PM.
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
I'm no expert but I'd look into having it restored. If it does prove to be one of one then you have a truly rare car in your hands. If you part it out then a little bit of history is gone for good. That's my take on it.
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
Originally Posted by BarryV8
I'm no expert but I'd look into having it restored. If it does prove to be one of one then you have a truly rare car in your hands. If you part it out then a little bit of history is gone for good. That's my take on it.
Yup. I think all of us would rather see it restored, rather than parted. That's why it's still in one piece. But it's gonna take someone with motivation and cash to do it.
Maybe someone will see it posted here and step up?
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
I wouldn't part it out either. I would tuck it away for now just as it sits & see what happens in the near future. Just make sure its a clean dry parking spot to slow down mother earths grip on it.
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
Maybe do it in chunks over time. 2 fenders, hood and bumper into primer. 2 doors, windshield pillars and roof panel into primer and then finish by doing the quarters, rear roof panel and rear bumper into primer. Take as much time as you need. Once the car is all primed it can sit while you sort out a paintshop.
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
Being a 1le you have one of the very few thirdgens actually worth doing a full blown restoration on financially. The car restored would easily bring into the 5 figure range. Being 1 of 1 makes it even more unique. If your buddy has the skill set and a place to put it, restore the car in stages over time.
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
I won't speak for the owner, but these are my impressions....
Considering the rarity of this car, the owner doesn't want to part it. But ultimately, someone will have to belly up and purchase it with the idea that they'd want to restore it. It's all there, it's documented, but as Jeremy mentioned, it is thoroughly rusted and will need a TON of work.
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
The downside is it has nearly 300K on the clock. I think with todays market you could very quickly be upside down in restoring the car. Unless you do it has a fun hobby & don't need much for the labor involved.
What would this this car be worth in nice restored condition?
Maybe do the math & see if it make sense, if not just let it sit.
Also, Im curious how much is a car like this worth in parts?
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
Originally Posted by F-body-fan
The downside is it has nearly 300K on the clock. I think with todays market you could very quickly be upside down in restoring the car. Unless you do it has a fun hobby & don't need much for the labor involved. What would this this car be worth in nice restored condition? Maybe do the math & see if it make sense, if not just let it sit. Just curious, how much is a car like this worth in parts?
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
Since I've seen the car, I'll give a realistic spin on what it will take to fix this car. Fenders, doors, hood, and hatch are the least of this car's worries. This isn't about being able to get parts. This is about reconstructing the entire body shell. It needs quarters, rear wheel houses, floors, rockers, possibly a whole roof (at least a complete windshield frame), and an entire front clip from the door hinges forward. I have yet to see the condition of the rear of the body tub so who knows what else would be needed there.
The challenge and expense is to do all that work in such a way that even the purist can't tell. If once the car's done you can look under the carpet, or look at the bottom side of the car on a hoist and see where repairs have been made, the value will be dramatically reduced. Same goes for all the little nit pick stuff like brake lines, fuel lines, exhaust etc. There are already immaculate versions of 1LE cars out there, it would be monumental to get this car back to that condition. If the car was simply repaired to be structurally sound and nitpick items like brake and fuel lines were custom made and aftermarket exhaust installed, is it still valuable? Or is it another modded thirdgen that purists won't pay for? The question is, is the car so far gone that any originality it ever had is already lost?
I'm not leaning one way or the other right now. Ideally I'd like to see someone fix it, but from what I've currently seen, it will take major skilled labor to get this car back in the condition of other 1LE cars.
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
Compnine shows 19 1LE and CC1 1991 TAs with 15 of them being Z49 (Canadian).
Originally Posted by chazman
The Compnine report I ran, also confirms this car as a 1LE with factory T-tops. Could be a 1 of 1. But I have seen another 1LE T/A with T-tops, just can't remember the year.
Jeremy and I and it's new owner have been chatting about this car for a couple of weeks now......
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
Now that's interesting. If there's 18 other t top 1les out there, it kind of swings the decision to part IMO and it sounds like none of the original car would be left minus the drivetrain. Got any pictures of the real ugly spots?
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
Originally Posted by Eric-86sc
Now that's interesting. If there's 18 other t top 1les out there, it kind of swings the decision to part IMO and it sounds like none of the original car would be left minus the drivetrain. Got any pictures of the real ugly spots?
no close ups of the real ugly stuff yet. I can have my buddy provide some or I can get some next time I am there. I was there last night but it was getting dark and it's hard to get decent pix of a black car at dusk.
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
Being a Canadian, I've been through the process of restoring a car that started as rust flakes. Due to that experience I always advise that no matter what, start with a solid structure.
A 1LE T-top TA might be an exception. This one may very well be a candidate for a body transplant. I'm not going to do it, but a nice solid southern 1991 3.1 V6 Firebird donor would be fairly easy to find.
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
As far as the rebuilding of this car, as said above, sadly, it sounds like it will need a precision firewall/cowl panel swap into a solid body.
Worth saving, yes but from a monetary standpoint, not right now.
I know this a major issue with some people and "true" original cars.
I almost ordered a JY 92 formula 305 5spd 1LE ttop cd player car.
(Even still have the dealer worksheet for tha car order)
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
Originally Posted by TTOP350
As far as the rebuilding of this car, as said above, sadly, it sounds like it will need a precision firewall swap into a solid body.
Worth saving, yes but from a monetary standpoint, not right now.
I know this a major issue with some people and "true" original cars.
I almost ordered a JY 92 formula 305 5spd 1LE ttop cd player car.
I factory ordered a 92 Formula TPI 5 speed with a CD player. I was ' that close to ordering it JY, but was using car for business at the time and thought that would be a little too far over the top, so I ordered dark metallic green (forget the color name).
Wanted T-top but salesman said it was not available (he obviously couldn't read). No internet in those days so research was much more difficult.
I did not know about 1LE at the time, but I was really considering omitting A/C because I was young back then and thought I could live without it. But I ordered A/C anyway. Too bad, I could have ended up with a 1LE by "accident".
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
I'm not sure why people think restoring this car will make it worth a ton. It's nice that one was found, yes it is a rare option, but rare does not equate value what-so-ever.
The real value is gone. It's rusty and in bad shape. Even with a restoration I can't understand any huge increase in value vs any other old, rusty TA getting restored. It would not carry much value outside of the core third-gen community here.
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
As of today, yes. It's at least worth keeping, the market will likely change to make this restoration equitable in 15-20 years. It's better than parting and crushing it.
I always thought of late 70's TA's as worthless junk heaps, but they sure have rounded the bend on the "J" curve.
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
Originally Posted by TTOP350
As far as the rebuilding of this car, as said above, sadly, it sounds like it will need a precision firewall swap into a solid body.
Worth saving, yes but from a monetary standpoint, not right now.
I know this a major issue with some people and "true" original cars.
I almost ordered a JY 92 formula 305 5spd 1LE ttop cd player car.
I am curious, why the firewall swap ?
I think a clean V6 t top body would be the way to go in this case. It is the closest thing to a factory replacement piece. Cutting good metal out of a good car/s to repair that much rot is a waste in my opinion. It will never be original again.
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
Originally Posted by eseibel67
As of today, yes. It's at least worth keeping, the market will likely change to make this restoration equitable in 15-20 years. It's better than parting and crushing it.
I always thought of late 70's TA's as worthless junk heaps, but they sure have rounded the bend on the "J" curve.
Exactly right! If this were a 1979 W72 T/A 6.6 Trans Am, no one would even question if it were worth restoring - but not a few years ago.
If this car gets parted and crushed it's gone. But if this car can survive until such a time when it's rarity makes it a restoration candidate, regardless of cost, it has a chance.
Anyone ever watch Graveyard Cars on Velocity? Yes, I know they restore Mopars from the 1968-1973 time period, and some of these cars are worth some coin, but they've taken on just as bad or worse cars and made them new again.
The thing with this car right now is, that it may cost 30 or 40,000 dollars to make this an $18,000 car.
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
Originally Posted by thtanner
I'm not sure why people think restoring this car will make it worth a ton. It's nice that one was found, yes it is a rare option, but rare does not equate value what-so-ever.
The real value is gone. It's rusty and in bad shape. Even with a restoration I can't understand any huge increase in value vs any other old, rusty TA getting restored. It would not carry much value outside of the core third-gen community here.
I'm going to disagree with you here and give you an example that is admittedly not linear.
1969 RA IV/Auto Trans Am in similar condition 1 of 9 built. Owner buys car and sends it to a small unknown restoration shop to get "restored" in hopeful anonymity. Car gets completed, minor disagreement on cost of work and level of completion so shop is left with a balance it decides to satisfy by selling the leftover parts - on e-Bay! Photos below are of the left-over parts.
As much as we may agree with you that the value of the car is at this point gone, the market chooses to be naive and ignore the truth about the car due to it's rarity.
This story or one similar in nature is shared by many cars, over all makes including a certain triple black 71 Hemi Cuda, a special Boss 429 Mustang, a multi million dollar Ferrari 250 GTO, several Duesenbergs & Bugattis.
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
Originally Posted by 91ls1t56
I am curious, why the firewall swap ?
I think a clean V6 t top body would be the way to go in this case. It is the closest thing to a factory replacement piece. Cutting good metal out of a good car/s to repair that much rot is a waste in my opinion. It will never be original again.
Other than the stickers on every body panel, there are hidden VIN's stamped into the body. If you are going to undertake the restoration of a car like this, you can (and likely would have to) replace just about every panel except the cowl piece. You can choose to do this one panel at a time or all at once like TTOP350 & others are suggesting.
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
If you just swap tags onto another vehicle you can go to jail. (if thats what the post above was referring to? )
Personally I do not like the talk of body swaps. If its done on the level, IE: swap all of the parts over & keep the vin & tags that came with the V6 car, no issues at all. 1LE clone car.
If the swap includes the tags, its not only illegal but incredibly deceitful. If I shelled out good money for a rare, valuable car only to find out later it was a base sub model with swapped parts, I would be furious. If it was a legal deal Like a firewall swap & the seller was up front about it , the price would reflect that & no problem there either.
Normally when tag swaps happen (And we know they do) its usually done for one reason.. more $$$ I think people that do that are crazy. That "skeleton in the closet" will be out there possibly forever & no money is worth that.
Bottom line is, it's just a dirty shame the car was not only a daily driver, but driven right into the ground. Whats done is done & its pretty hard to acknowledge. I totally get it.
Tuck the car away, collect parts for it & see what happens in the future. Cheap investment right now. If this car becomes sought after like a 1969 ZL1, then pour the money into it down the road. For what the car is worth today, it's just not worth touching it IMO unless the restoration is for personal reasons. If its for the money forget it.....
re: '91 1LE TA with T-Tops. Click here, yes it's real
Originally Posted by PurelyPMD
I'm going to disagree with you here and give you an example that is admittedly not linear.
1969 RA IV/Auto Trans Am in similar condition 1 of 9 built. Owner buys car and sends it to a small unknown restoration shop to get "restored" in hopeful anonymity. Car gets completed, minor disagreement on cost of work and level of completion so shop is left with a balance it decides to satisfy by selling the leftover parts - on e-Bay! Photos below are of the left-over parts.
As much as we may agree with you that the value of the car is at this point gone, the market chooses to be naive and ignore the truth about the car due to it's rarity.
This story or one similar in nature is shared by many cars, over all makes including a certain triple black 71 Hemi Cuda, a special Boss 429 Mustang, a multi million dollar Ferrari 250 GTO, several Duesenbergs & Bugattis.
Would love to have that car fall into my lap was that one restored yet? I recall seeing those pictures a while back.
12-23-2015, 11:23 AM
Whats done is done & its pretty hard to acknowledge. I totally get it. 
was that one restored yet? I recall seeing those pictures a while back.