F-body-fan

Does anyone know what headlamps where originally installed on the 1989 Trans Am /Firebirds? I'm curious if my car has the originals, & if it doesn't, I'm going to see if I can find a set of the correct ones. Yes, I know thats a little overkill at the young age of our 3rd generation cars, But, I also have several cars from the 60's & 70's & its surprising how that stuff matters now that they are 40 years old.

I'm thinking it will be easier to get the right ones today, rather than in 10-20 years from now if I still have my cars.

Going to a pick & pull yard this weekend & might see if any of the cars have the original lamps in them. On a side note, I did a quick walk through yesterday afternoon when I was in the area of the yard. Weird to see later 80's to early 90's 3rd gens in a yard looking so weathered & obviously sitting for decades outside apart & in the weather. I still think of these cars as "not that old"

eseibel67

This is an interesting endeavor. Someone with an original will tell you what brand of 6054 sealed beam is correct. Then scour the junkyard with your multimeter for ones than still conduct electricity. The guy at the front counter will let you take as many as you can carry for $5. Sell them in 20 years for a tidy profit.


Don't forget to check other makes. Rabbits, Rangers and Tercels also used 2 big square headlights, maybe they also used the same bulb manufacturer. On a down note, I think this exercise might be more fruitful to find correct 4656/4651 headlights for a Camaro. Firebirds have their eyes shut at a car show.

Wife'sCar

iTrader: (1)

I'd like to know what yard you go to, I get some great deals but they would still charge me per bulb.

F-body-fan

I agree! I have a 68 GTO that has hideaway headlights. I had two correct T3 sealed beams, But had to pay a pretty penny for two used vintage ones that could burn out first time I turn them on. Now I believe they are reproducing the T3's, so those work & look correct but the crazy on course guys will have the right dates codes too. I wanted the right headlights, but wasn't going to worry about date codes you can't see unless you remove the head lights. My GTO is not that concourse correct.


Most yards will not let you step one foot into their yards & for good reason. This is one of the only places I know of that will let you out their on your own good behavior. I am so respectful removing parts from yards like this, but yet there are so many people that will trash parts of a car to get a $20 mirror. It gets so abused.

I will see if I can take some pictures when I get there. One of the things I am after is a correct left side window glass. My 89 has an aftermarket PPG window in it. I was very happy to find a NOS "theft deterrent" sticker on ebay, so I'll I hope to find is an early 89 glass. Might be a tall order, but I will see.

Wife'sCar

iTrader: (1)

I'm surrounded by pull your own parts yards.

F-body-fan

FWIW, both headlights are "Guide" halogen. No idea if they are original. I know back in the days of sealed beams, I would always replace both if one would burn out, so who knows with these.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I pulled my originals years ago and put them in the boxes that my plastic lights came in. (the plastic came in certain vets and are, no pun intended, light (er).

F-body-fan

You know what that means, your going to have to dig them out & add a little light to the subject so we can see if I'm on to anything.......

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

What a bright idea

Wife'sCar

iTrader: (1)

Guys this isn't very punny......

F-body-fan

Thought I would add one more picture. Seeing my car is an 89, I'm liking all of the 9's I see..... Starting to look like mine might be original to the car.

EDIT: after a bit of googling, it "might" be possible that the DOT H89 is a date code for when the headlamp design was approved by the DOT. This is regurgitated info I found on another site, so its just a guess.
It's hard to see on the picture, but there is also an A9 on the very bottom. That could be january of 1989?

LAFireboyd

iTrader: (3)

The original brand was most likely Wagner. Wagner was a big OE supplier, and it wasn't easily found over-the-counter at auto parts stores. Seems to me that's what my Formula had, and I couldn't find them anywhere when I needed to replace one. Sylvania was the brand flooding the shelves, so that brand began lighting my way.

But just about everything ever created is available somewhere today through the internet. I remember when I adapted my car to projector headlights a couple of years ago, general web searches for H6052/H6054 headlights always turned-up Wagner brand sealed beams(along with several other brands), so I don't think you'll have any problems finding Wagner online.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

Wagner was big, but Guide was a captive GM division, tasked with designing and manufacturing lighting components (think Packard for wiring/plug wires, Harrison Thermal for HVAC parts and compressors, AC for spark plugs, Rochester for fuel components, Delco for electrical items, etc.). My money would be on them, as in F-body-fan's post. But I could be wrong.

Now I'm going to have to check my '88 when I get home!

F-body-fan

Thanks Dave, I never found a mfg name on my headlamps other than GUIDE.
Hopefully some others here can confirm so the thread becomes useful in the future. I did go through the salvage yard yesterday & never saw other headlamps like this. Most included the mfg name on the front along with the halogen callout so I didn't bother removing what was there.


EDIT: by the way, I wanted to make a thread showing a few pictures I took in the salvage yard. What board topic would that fit in. I was thinking their was a "lobby" forum, but I don't see it.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

Well, my car is not going to be much help as a reference. I have one GE, and one Sylvania.

But good thread...good topic. Would like to see folks chime in, and see what we have out there.

F-body-fan

The gal I bought my car from bought it when it in 1992. In that time she only put about 15K miles on it & told me she only drove it when it was nice outside. Otherwise it was always sitting in her garage. So, My guess is it didn't have the headlights on very often. I am almost tempted to replace them & put them in a box for safe keeping.

paulo57509

The original headlamps installed by the factory are from the Guide division of GM.

The lo/hi lamps on my '87 were replaced long ago with Sylvania Halogens. But the hi beam lamps are the factory originals:

okfoz

The Beauty of owning a Firebird... The headlights are hidden, no one knows...

mantaguy

iTrader: (5)

LOL,

yo soy el warg

I just wanted to say that I looked at my 1985 California IROC and it had the Guide brand of headlights and they are original.

F-body-fan

I also own a 41K miles 79 Tenth T/A & it has guide headlamps. I never knew that & I have owned the car for nearly 16 years. I'm guessing all of these lamps are date coded similar to what I posted in #11? I'll pull a couple of those some day just for grins. None are marked Halogen however. Not sure what year halogen lamps became standard in production.

okfoz

in 1983 replaceable halogen lamps were first permitted to be used in the US. I am not sure, but It...

This is what I found.
it appears that Halogen Fog-lights were introduced in 88, But there is no reference to 1987, so it might have been 87.

As for the headlights, there is nothing indicating when they changed. Like I mentioned before, permission was granted to use Halogen replaceable bulbs in 1983 in the US, and they have 4 entries for sealed beam bulbs in the Parts Catalog. 82, 83, 84-90 and 91-92 (Firebird). The 82-90 all use the same part number.... I suspect that possibly that the halogen sealed beams may have been introduced as early as 1984.

okfoz

This is a good read to see how the Federal government really screwed us as far as lights go. They literally put a kibosh on any development of headlights after 1940 until 1983.

http://www.motivemag.com/pub/feature...n_Lights.shtml

F-body-fan

Great Reading! Thanks for the link, lots of interesting info in that article I never heard before.

LiquidBlue

I put my 90 into storage in 93. I don't recall if I ever replaced the headlights. I'll check when I get a chance.

yo soy el warg

What I have been able to find out is that the Halogen head lights were available on a third gen Camaro in 1982.

Only on the high beams (2) as RPO TT5. Here is the breakdown.

1982: RPO TT5 Qty. Ordered 34,996 Retail Cost $10.00
1983: RPO TT5 Qty. Ordered 36,514 Retail Cost $10.00
1984: RPO TT5 Qty. Ordered 78,338 Retail Cost $10.00

In 1985 you got both high and low beams (4) as one package with RPO TT4. Here is the breakdown.

1985: RPO TT4 Qty. Ordered 56,761 Retail Cost $22.00
1986: RPO TT4 Qty. Ordered 71,476 Retail Cost $25.00
1987: RPO TT4 Qty. Ordered 5,819 Included in "option packages"
1988: RPO TT4 Qty. Ordered 26885 Included in "option packages"
1989: RPO TT4 Qty. Ordered 62,262 Included in "option packages"

1990: Standard on all models.
1991: Standard on all models.
1992: Standard on all models.

I looked at my RPOs on my 1985 California IROC and the TT4 is on there. Both high and low beam lights were still there and the original Guide brand.

Nick V.

Forgive me (im not up on what collectors check on) but looking for the original lights sounds a bit extreme as far as keeping a car original. Especially third gens. But good luck, ill never be able to keep track of all the "correct" replacement parts

F-body-fan

I sorta alluded to that in the beginning. True, the 3rd gen cars might not ever hit that status, but they they could someday. I am a gluten for information & am intrigued by the originality of vehicles so this thread is probably more entertaining & educational than anything right now, & I have leaned quite a few things I didn't know before.

throughout the early/mid 90's I bought 2nd generation cars that really weren't all that collectible at the time. In fact, value wise I paid what seemed like a little too much for them based on what similar cars were selling for in general. there were still a lot of ratty ones driving around that really kept the value of the nice cars down a bit. Now those "nice" cars have really come into there own. I think as more of the older worn out 3rd gen cars disappear off the roadways, the nice ones will start to get noticed & gain popularity.

I used to buy cars from weekend auto trader magazines. Am I dating myself??

okfoz

As trivial as this may sound, it is invaluable information, the truth is, when you go to a top level car show, you might have two cars that are identical, but only one has the correct headlights, if the show was serious, the one with the correct headlights should win.

The T3 headlights are very identifiable from the 60's... Obviosly GM bought the headlights, does anyone know what brand they were, were they Sylvania? (I am personally not that picky, but I might look at my 89 to see if it has the original headlights in it or not.... I have owned so many of these cars and never changed headlights.

John

eseibel67

In my youth, I eagerly awaited the Friday delivery to the local corner store.


If you were a seller, you had to dictate the ad copy over the phone, then they would send out a photographer.

dirttoo

Are the Guide bulbs worth anything? I have two on my 28,000 mile '92 Camaro I would give up to someone wanting originals.

Thornburg

Please forgive me, but was this post to find the original manufacture of a lamp? Why couldn't you just get this from Autozone....
http://www.autozone.com/collision-bo...570_0_0/#close

Slater126

iTrader: (1)

Because that's a replacement lamp, not the original OE lamp. The original poster wants to know what brand/type of headlights were originally installed on the car, not what you can buy in 2015 at Autozone.

okfoz

Some people want to keep their car as original as possible... Down to the headlights... It is the little things that can make the difference between a really nice show car and a car show winner

Thornburg

OK I get it now, scoring points at a show, that makes sense...

F-body-fan

Its really most about originality. Thats why the topic is in the history/originality forum. The majority of cars have lights & other "consumable" type parts replaced as they age, so its pretty cool when a car still retains some of those parts that are normal wear & tear disposable parts IMO.

I have owned quite a few 3rd generation cars back in the early 90's. Back then I couldn't care less about originality. In fact one of them had a rod bearing knock & I tossed the entire engine in favor of something with a little more Hp. Now its pretty cool when a car can be 25+ years old & retain parts like this.

If the headlight post seems out of whack, you really wouldn't like my valve stem cap post. That one is a bit of a reach on originality.

CPC Norwood

I have been doing some research into the NOS stuff that is out there and it looks as though GE was a definite secondary supplier to GM for some period of time in addition to Guide.

In the attached images the Guide box is on the left and the GE on the right. You can also identify the OEM GE headlight from its script vs the Guide unit.

Note that the SKU/barcodes are the same for both units on the box bottoms.

okfoz

It would not surprise me that GM would have used multiple suppliers to keep up. Remember back until 1988 all headlights were of 2 designs, (Rectangle and Round) There was 2 headlight sizes of Small (91 & 92 type) and the large (82-90) for our cars.

It may have been mentioned before, Guide was a division of GM at one time, they were located (or at least one of them was) in Anderson, IN. on Route 9. There is nothing there now but a parking lot

I do not remember when the Fisher Guide went away in Anderson, IN... I found on the internet that it was demolished around 2009/2010. It may be at that time that GM started outsourcing, but looking at the condition of that box it would appear older than that... It seems to me that this is when GM was in the selloff phase where they were ditching all of their bulk that actually made them the powerhouse they were, to give shareholders and bondholders some sort of a "profit"

I do not believe any GM parts are still made by Fisher Guide, but I might be wrong on that...

John

CPC Norwood

I found this on the Net I cannot vouch for it but it rings true to me...

Timeline

1906: Hugh Monson, William Persons and William Bruce pooled their money and, with $300, Guide came into existence on the fifth floor of the Graves Building in Cleveland, Ohio.

1908: The three men produced and marketed the first successful electric headlamp and Guide grew rapidly.

1928: Guide Motor Lamp Manufacturing Co. of Cleveland became part of General Motors' Delco Remy Division in Anderson. The Anderson location was the old Jenny Electric plant at 25th and Arrow streets.

1929: Guide separated from Delco Remy and became Guide Lamp Division of General Motors with plants in Anderson and Cleveland.

1930: Cleveland plant phased out.

1936: Guide acquires plant in Syracuse, N.Y., to build lamps, bumper guards and hubcaps. This plant became its own GM division in 1942.

1936: Guide workers join United Automobile Workers Union Local 146. On Dec. 31, 350 to 400 Guide workers begin a sit-down strike in response to a strike at a GM assembly plant in Norwood, Ohio.

1942: Guide converts its assembly to military needs, producing, among other items, 650,000 M3 submachine guns.

1947: Guide began using plastic lenses on rear lamps, an industry first.

1973: Guide announces expansion "to meet 1974 model requirements of General Motors car divisions." Employment increased by 800 jobs later in the year.

1974: Guide opens Monroe, La., plant.

1975: With the division's increasing involvement in plastics, Guide Lamp is renamed Guide Division.

1978: Guide announces a major expansion: 245,000 square-foot manufacturing plant, new parking lot and 500 more jobs.

1984: GM's Guide and Fisher Body division merge into Fisher Guide. Guide to lay off 235 workers.

1990: New name is Inland Fisher Guide.

1992: Inland Fisher Guide's Anderson plant put on GM's "troubled plant list" after posting losses in 1990 and 1991.

1998: GM ends ownership of Guide. Independent business is called Guide Corp.

1999: Some workers elect to transfer to GM plants. Guide begins hiring new work force, called 99ers.

2006: Guide announces plans to cease operations in June 2007.

I think this is the source: http://www.indianaeconomicdigest.net...rticleID=30015

Bjerime01

Well I'm late on this post but the bird I have has been sitting on Robins AFB Registered Vehicle #531WKN until 2004 from new and due to sun fade was repainted even the original head lamps was over sprayed and both say there GE headlights.

okfoz

When I lived in Anderson During the mid 1990's I remember the Fisher-Guide/lamp (The locals still called it "Guide Lamp" was in trouble.