LiquidBlue

Hello Fellow 3rd Gens! I'm new to the forum. Great place! I've had my 1990 Formula in storage since 1994. I'm finally getting around to breaking it out and wondering if I should keep it 100% original or would slight mods be OK? Things like engine mods, headers, exhaust, ignition. Does it matter?

Javier87z28

iTrader: (1)

How many miles on the bird?

LiquidBlue

Hey Javier! ~60K. I used to drive it all over Houston until 1994 and then pretty much parked it since then - just got busy with other things.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Been there myself... I've got one car that's nearly 100% original, the other two get minor mods that can easily be reversed. Do whatever makes you happy.

KMK454

If you're going to keep it for your own enjoyment, do what you like. If you are looking to sell it and make the most money possible, then I'd recommend keeping it as original and clean as possible.

scottmoyer

Not sure this is the right forum if you plan on modifying it since this is the History/Originality forum

LiquidBlue

Thanks for the replies gents. I didn't want to modify at all. But my expert mechanic who I trust a lot recommended a few mods. He typically works on cars worth way more than a 3G but he also has an appreciation for these vehicles. Thought I'd look to you guys for advice. I do like the sounds of the results of the mods, but I'd hate to wreck a 3G original if it means wrecking future value.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Exactly.

MJS422

I say enjoy the car the way you see fit. These cars my be increasing in value, but not to the point where doing some tasteful mods will take that much away from the value. I see the collector car market taking a big dive after the baby boomer generation starts to get out of the game. Every time I go to a show or cruise in everyone there seems to be 30yrs my senior. Only a hand full of younger guys in this market. Most young people are just not into cars nowadays. Sad but true.

scottmoyer

I may have a reason for that. I was recently at a local cruise in and was asked why I haven't been around. I explained that I get tired of going to the cruise ins where the music is the same 50s/60s music they were playing 20 years ago. I have been to many cruise ins where I have been told that I shouldn't be there because my car was too new. This same cruise in recently told a friend of mine that his fully modified 5th gen Camaro wasn't welcome there because it was too new, disregarding the fact that it was completely modified.

An older gentleman overheard my conversation and said that he agreed and felt that cars newer than the late 70s shouldn't attend. He asked what the benefit was of buying a new car and taking it to a cruise in? I asked what benefit it was that someone else restored the car that he brought to the cruise in and all he did was buy it from the person that restored it. This issue may be why a Lime green Challenger Hellcat pulled in and soon left!

When I bought my Camaro in 2000, the '69 Camaro was 31 years old and was seen at cruise ins and shows all the time. The music being played was 40-50 years old and the regulars were in their early 60s. This was their generation. Those same people today are in their mid 70s.

The next wave of car enthusiasts come from the 80s. There wasn't much to be enthused about in the mid to late 70s. So lets take 1980. That makes those cars 35 years old. Four years older than the 69 Camaros that I was seeing everywhere in 2000. They aren't looked at by the attendees at cruise ins.

So, because of the thought I put into this, I've decided to start a new Cruise In in Central Florida that is open to 1978 and newer American cars. The music will be from the late 70s to early 90s. The same music you hear representing car sales from the big 3 today! I think I will need to find a large parking lot, because there will be a lot of cruisers showing up that feel slighted at other cruise ins!

LiquidBlue

Wow Scott - I never thought about it that way. Those are some great points. A lot of the younger guys are also growing up with new Japanese cars, they are not used to American muscle. It nearly went extinct a few years back. I like pony cars, because that is what I grew up with, my beater in high school was a 70 Barracuda. The younger guys may be out there, but maybe they are going to Japanese cruise ins? In fact, my mechanic told me Japanese machines are making a comeback and getting popular.

SolarGoldRaptor

I don't know if there's the same thing in the US, but in Europe, there's a category of cars called "youngtimers" ranging from the late 70's to the 90's, it's increasing quite a bit in popularity and some cars that weren't worth much ten years ago can cost a fortune today (think hot hatches like the 205 GTI or the Super 5 GT Turbo). There are many events that focus on these cars.

As for your Formula, I'd keep it stock, I see no good reason to start modifying it today, there are plenty in the US that would be a good base for any modification you want.

FormerL69

iTrader: (2)

@LiquidBlue - it's your car, do as you please with it.

@Scott - 100% agree with you. Cool idea to start to 78+ show - I think that is brilliant "Our" generation is next and I've always felt that at some point the 50s/60s nostalgia will (quite literally) die off. Yeah, the 80s may not have been spectacular from a performance standpoint but I think all of us here (and we are biased) have equally strong feelings and nostalgia for cars from that era. I think others probably feel the same and a car event showcasing that would be huge.

Dmans85

Vote for livening it up some.

So true about what Scott had to say on cruise ins. There will be at times a generational disconnect between most regular go-ers in the age range he stated and those like us who may not remember the muscle car heyday because we were in diapers or not around yet. Regardless if we even have a 60's era vehicle like themselves.

+1 for that later muscle themed cruise-in

scottmoyer

Oh, in response to your question to if it matters to modify your car... Only if it matters to you. If the car, in it's present condition, doesn't provide the satisfaction you require, then you need to do what makes you happy. I'm satisfied with the hp/tq ratings of my car and prefer to keep it stock for just cruising around, but if it were a higher mileage car, I'd probably learn to add some speed!!

MJS422

Alot of what your saying here makes sense. That is some very good insight. Your Idea about having a 78+ event is a fantastic idea. I hope it works out great for you.

Bob88GTA

iTrader: (2)

I have agree with ya Scott.
LiquidBlue...it's your car, do as you please with it, AND ENJOY IT!

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

I agree with Scott. I go to lot of shows and usually get put in the new car category and my car is 25yr old and even has an antique tag on it. Not much interest from the car club folks but a lot of people my age and younger who grew up around these cars stop and look at it. I hate the "doo-wop" 50s music too man! Would love to go to a show and hear some Pearl Jam or maybe some ELO.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Yeah, some of these cruise night organizers are just stupid. In fact, I sometimes wonder if some of these guys are even into cars or can recognize something cool.

Several years ago there used to be a large one near me. On one occasion, instead of taking a Camaro, I decided to take my then daily driver, which I had just detailed, a 1998 SVT Contour, a rare and interesting car I thought. I was shocked when they wouldn't allow me in. Some of my Camaro Club friends saw me and were incensed. They snuck my car in the back and created a parking spot for me. I had a crowd around my SVT and was answering questions about it all evening long. Other cars not allowed in that night were - an 1980's Dodge Daytona with an SRT-4 powertrain and wheels, and a GMC truck with a built and supercharged LSx motor.

And I'm sick of the '50's music too. My friends and I make it a point to park away from the DJ, just so we can hear ourselves talk.

Scott, good luck with your '78 and up cruise night!

As far as the OP, listen to KMK454. If you want to mod it, it's your car. If you want it to be worth more money if you sell it, keep it stock.

roc in chair

If you payed for it do what you want. I think A True Car guy is going to respect other peoples cars. Where it be a 1915 or 2015.

This is what I do. If I do not care for the music I walk on by with my mouth shut.

As for the 50's and 60's music please have patience with it. We will be to old to hear it or anything else soon or we will be taking The Dirt Nap.

Bob88GTA

iTrader: (2)

I go to car shows everyday, listen to my own type of music 80's,90's rock, eat and drink what I want, and leave when I want.

I go to my garage!!! Ha!

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

And there are mods that are reversible and can be hid so that the car looks bone stock.

bigal55

iTrader: (1)

To the op, do what you want with YOUR car. It is exactly that, YOUR car. If you want to keep originality, throw it back in the garage and cover it up, bring it back out 10 or 20 years from now and sell it for what it is worth. You wont get much "value" from it in those next 10 to 20 years but you will gain some monetary value. Is that what you are looking for? Time is money but enjoyment is as they say, "priceless". It is your car.
As for the cruise scene, it was born from the 50s and 60s so don't feel bad that your "newer" car doesn't fit in, it just doesn't. Don't think for a moment that real car people don't appreciate the newer stuff, because they do. Would you really go to a Japanese car show with a 3rd gen and expect to fit in? A car show is different, any make, model or year is acceptable where as specific shows are just that, specific to a genre. As stated, start your own group show. You will surely get large crowds and all attendees will have something in common.
The whole point of both these statements is, to each his own. It's about what you feel comfortable with. JMHO!

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

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Saxondale

iTrader: (2)

"I've decided to start a new Cruise In that is open to 1978 and newer American cars. The music will be from the late 70s to early 90s."

Ha! Scott, finally I hear it from someone else. I'm so tired of the same 50s-60s bee-bop at every show. It's the same music now as the first show I attended in approx. '82. Been thinking '74 and newer. Perhaps along the lines of Unleaded or Catalytic. Unleaded Show. Unleaded Limited. Must be something catchy.

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

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eseibel67

Good opening post. Welcome to TGO.

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

Well, the originality is what sets yours apart. IMO, headers are a big altercation especially if it requires moving brake lines and removing emissions. Many headers are cheaply made with thin walled tubing and flaking paint which burns/falls off and rusts. The stock HEI is a relatively good performing ignition system and I would ask myself if the performance difference really worth it. If it were mine and this (from what I gather) is a 4,xxx production run with attractive options, the most I would do is maybe a cam swap (keeping original cam) and tuning which is not visible and also reversible. If you compare to how many were built that year, or how many Thirdgen Firebirds total were built, the percentage becomes very small.

Thirdgens are just beginning to increase in value and imo now is a really bad time to consider this, especially if it is someone else's idea. Maybe in a few years if you don't see much of a change then reconsider it. If you look, you can see Thirdgen prices increasing while Fourth Gen prices hit bottom, you are at a point where prices are just coming up and I think this would be the worst time over the past 25 years to decide to start modifying. While I don't think your bottom line is going to be greatly influenced, this is the history/originality section and there is a bit of preservation involved in our hobby when the relatively few of use end up with unmolested examples.

IMO, it's not a totally bad idea to think of the next guy down the line, and if what you have is a piece of history that the next owner is going to appreciate. I'm kind of playing the devils advocate here as I typically buy less popular Thirdgens so I can drive them daily and modify without having to consider it's value or rarity.

scottmoyer

Just for the record, SeeksClean85Z28 is an old member here. His old user name was 87 B4Z TPI 5Spd and he is credited with helping IROCZTWENTYGR8 with finding his dream car. Welcome back, Rich.

Saxondale

iTrader: (2)

Yes. Thanks Scott. All this confirms I need to pick less limiting screen names. As it turns out I'm now in the hunt for an '83 through '85ish!

Rich

KMK454

I love cars too much to let the shows bother me. Some of them do resemble a nursing home on wheels, but I'm okay with that as long as I can look at some nice classic cars. Some of the folks have personal stories about the history of the car and are interesting to talk to. And on the opposite end, we have some fifthgen clubs that think there are only two Camaros: 1969, and 2010-present. But again, I like seeing their cars, though my interest does not extend to color-changing halos and Transformers emblems. But in fairness to those who forget about gen 2 through 4, most 2nd and 3rd gens are barely running well enough to make it to a show, while most 4th gens were distracted by the local drag strip.

As far as my thirdgen, people can think what they want of it. I didn't buy it for other people.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

I can HAPPILY handle all of that as well. And I agree, the stories are interesting. A couple of weeks ago we were admiring a '67 Impala with a 427 and 4 speed. As it turns out, it was brought there by the original owner. He ordered it new and used it as his family car - Chicago winters and all - until he restored it in the '80's.


The 5th gen clubs however, are simply unbearable.

Saxondale

iTrader: (2)

That thought comes to my mind, too, despite my gripes about the music. If those folks are willing to organize the events that's great for me, because I don't have the time or energy to do it. Perhaps sadly is that attrition will begin to eliminate those organizers, after which we'll reminisce about those old shows.

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

Can't believe how much my friends and I have said the EXACT same thing. The music is the exact same as when I started going to cruise-ins in the mid 90s(That is 20 years ago). We should at least be in the 70s and 80s in terms to music.

Also, in regards to "elitist groups" , we have some of those around here as well. They have signs up at the entrance to car shows stating, 1978 and older only. While we still go in some and hang out, no one likes to feel turned away before they even get there. We have not been let in in a 2006 TB SS, and a 1996 Impala SS. It is very stupid to alienate people that have the same interests as they do. As you stated, most of them buy their fully restored cars and just drive them. No different than someone buying a new Camaro and cruising it there IMHO.


Oh well.......

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

I realize we're off topic, so before I chime in about cruise ins, I would say do what YOU want. I personally love the look of these cars stock, but I also like a little extra power and handling. My goal has always been to keep my car LOOKING stock at a quick glance. ....but beyond that, I'm gonna enjoy it the way I want to enjoy it. Some guys love owning a perfect specimen as original as the day it was made. Some like turning wrenches. Some just wanna race a car someone else built. A car is different things. For me, I love the stock look, but don't care for the details and discipline of keeping it TRULY stock. I need to be able to put my little custom touches and turn some wrenches here and there. ...and I can only afford one toy, so I have to have a car that fits as many goals as I can! ...although my wife wants a "toy" too, and we're considering a bone stock, "survivor" Iroc vert....but that's another thread!

...as for cruise ins, I agree with you guys. That being said, we have our local "cars and coffee" here in Greensboro every third Saturday AM, and it includes EVERYONE! Lamborghini's, Ferrari's, Vipers, Honda's, Subies, Harleys, custom choppers, muscle cars, antiques, and of course everything in between. ...and being in the morning, everyone can make it out without taking up the whole day. .....it's been going for a few years now and we regularly get 400+ cars. It's an awesome event, and a great template for anyone looking to start a cruise in.

LiquidBlue

Great thoughts Scorpner. Yeah, the 90's were a low production year, not sure if that will ever matter tho. You called out some of the things he mentioned and then once I got to thinking about it a I started adding stuff. Its a 305 with T-tops and running 2.73 gears. Its definitely not one of the super rare cars. 4xxx were built, maybe 2xxx have not been sent to the junk yard. I'd love to get it up in power. Was thinking cam,heads,headers (good ones),injectors and ditching some of the emissions stuff (sort makes me cringe thinking about tearing into it) All of those parts could be saved - but I'm torn. In the end, I could put the money into a different car I have and have a screamin demon.

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

Ok, yeah I see what you're saying. It gets complicated with the 305 build, you may end up having to do work on the bottom end as well. I suppose buyers are going to be looking at the RPO codes too. It doesn't make the decision any easier.

MoJoe

iTrader: (5)

No one but a collector wants a straight 6 ('60s), low option, plain-Jane car. The 305, 2:73 options make your car "less desirable" to collectors and performance enthusiasts. That leaves people on a tight budget just looking for basic transportation, and not willing to spend more money than necessary.

Another way to drive down the value is to hack the car up, put cheap parts on, and generally make poor modifications.

On the other hand, high quality, well executed modifications could make the car more desirable... although that may not translate into higher resale price, and certainly less than you will spend. By modifying it, you driven off most collectors. Any resale market will be to performance enthusiasts.

I am with most others: do what YOU want. Spend more on quality parts, and take your time to make any modifications the right way, and the car will stay more reliable and look better for a longer time.

LiquidBlue

The car is pretty well loaded. T-Tops only came with 305 in 1990 - if someone is looking for a low production run 3rd Gen with t-tops, that is what they are going to get.

So by this logic, then only 1990 hardtops are desirable. That sucks....

MoJoe

iTrader: (5)

Sorry if I came across dissing your car. I was trying to make a quick comment on desirability, and generalities don't always apply to all situations. My last 87 had "just" a 305, but that was the only way to get a 5 speed from the factory. It was mostly fast enough for me, and I really liked driving that car, right up until it bit the dust.

This rest still stands: It's YOUR car, do what YOU want. Whatever you do, do it well, and you'll enjoy it more, and it might even retain good value in someone else's eyes... if that matters... to YOU.

LiquidBlue

No worries MoJoe. My car ROCKS! no one can make me feel bad about it

Wife'sCar

iTrader: (1)

As far as modifying your car, if value is a concern do plenty of research in instalation of anything you are interested in, and if it's completely bolt on go for it. Then wrap the original parts up good and store them. Then when the time comes to sell you can either put it all back or list all the original parts as included.

Not all mods are going to decrease value, new poly bushings and things that improve ride quality generally don't hurt value at all, sometimes it even gives the car an edge for the seller to say all normal wear items are brand new. A new radio as long as it was bolt in and used the correct harness adapter can be good as well.

Make the car comfortable for you to while still being able to put it back to original if need be.

And on the car meet discussion. At least you guys are talking about starting with newer muscle cars, I started into the auto world with a 1986 Mazda Rx-7 Sport Coupe. Then i got an 04 mustang. The difference in the welcome you get going from import to even newer American at car events in night and day. My Mazda got lump in with all the civic hate just because it wasn't American. Even though it was a rwd 5 speed 2 door Coupe that could keep up or embarrass most American cars of its year.

NufNuffZ28

iTrader: (10)

I was there this past weekend. Was yours the burgandy one with TPI, manual, modified gauges, plate said L98 or something?

rgauder

iTrader: (1)

Unless it's a rare, powerful edition (ex: 1LE, B4C, TTA etc) I don't think it is ever going to be extremely desireable as a collector, so mod away.

90 GTA Black

I respectfully disagree on the collectability - low mile original cars are already bringing decent money without 1LE, TTA B4C and will likely continue to go up.

As for mods - They are for fun only since few will add value to the car.

I don't subscribe to the "It's yours. Do whatever you want." mentality. My opinion is that true car guys realize they are just curators of a car; they won't own it forever so they look after it and make tasteful changes if any.

As for a 78 and newer cruise, I completely agree except don't exclude older cars, especially if someone shows up with a mid 70's. Around here you don't get kicked out for bringing a newer car but they do play only the 50's music. I would love to hear newer music but the organizers choose and they are almost always retired (and thus have the time) which means they play their generation's music. I just put in ear plugs when it gets to be too much.

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

Were you in GSO? ...i know Burlington has one too. I ask because that sure sound close to mine, but not quite. Mine is bright red, TPI, Manual, custom gauge faces (close to stock), plate say TPI 350. ...and if there was a burgandy Iroc there, I didn't see it!

LiquidBlue

If I were looking for a car, I would be looking for one that was not modded in part because I didn't trust the the mods. Were they done right, who knows until you see it. So that in itself eliminates a lot of potential buyers because there is no way you can go look at every single car. As a buyer, and as I passed thru the classified, when I saw a heavily modded car I'd probably just keep looking rather than spending the time and money to go inspect it. So that in my mind is part of the problem when you start modding a car and you want to retain value. It eliminates some of the buyer competition supply an demand. The other part of course, which you mention is a very good point, the car curator.

rgauder

iTrader: (1)

And this is where the car community divides. There is another rather large group of car guys who think that the so called "curators" are just posers.

We're all entitled to our opinions.

Yes, clean original cars will start to appreciate in value as it becomes harder to find clean examples, but the high production number vehicles are never going to be worth what the special ho low production cars will bring. Take a look at what some of the cars at the Mecum auction this weekend sold for. People were predicting higher numbers than what most sold for.

Scorpner

iTrader: (4)

I agree.

Abubaca

iTrader: (3)

I think the value of having YOUR car, modded (or not), exactly the way YOU want it, is far more valuable than any money you could save or lose by going in any certain direction.