crafty_z28

Hey guys, I'm stuck with a little bit of a conflict, I came across a pretty decent shape Trans Am last summer after finding my '87 Z/28 had a pretty bent frame and A LOT of rust. The Trans Am at first was perfect for me; 305 LB9, T5wc, and T-tops! At first I had thought, "OK, clean T5 swap, and almost no rust at all!" And for $2300, I paid for the car, put it on the trailer and got 'er home.

After actually doing some research (I kind of just jumped on it because it ran decent and he only wanted $2300 for it, I didn't think it would last) I looked up what the whole GTA package was, since the badges were there, and I was split. I noticed the fender and sail badges were in the wrong place, so i thought is was a clone. (SPID is missing) But after chasing down a short in the dash, I found this!

Perfect! a true Y84 LB9 MM5 CC1 car!


Enough blabbing tho... My issue:
Apparently, my car is actually rare for the year.. One of 356 Manual GTA birds built, and i know most weren't CC1 optioned, and I doubt many were white, as a good majority of the white birds were TTAs (which I'd kill to own, but that's another thing all together) so I'd guess it's close to 1 of 50 at most.
so I need some help deciding, do I keep it as close to original as possible, or build my dream engine? When i was younger my father almost bought a Lingenfelter modified L98 (heads/cam/intake/exhaust), and i still love the sound it made, and the power it had for an 80's car.

Long story short:
-Keep original?
-Keep 305 with reversible modifications?
-Or go L98 Lingenfelter?

I know the Lingenfelter setup wont be crazy fast, but i'd like to mostly keep up with my friend's imports.. Been kind of in the back of the pack after i wrecked my '00 Stang with a 4v termi swap...

just because, here's what i have to compete with...

R32 GTR Autocross wh*re 500awhp


My Mazda 3s GT Autocross wh*re (does almost as well as the GTR)


93 RX7 Spirit-R shop car; full bridge port, big single, and lots of dyno time.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

If you are going to swap go gen3. Any swap will lose the originality. Lingenfelter won't get you much without spending serious cash on heads.

To be honest though white third gens aren't rare. I have a white 89 GTA L98/a4. There were 3000 just like it that year alone. GTA's themselves are not rare.

Unless you are going to Do a full restoration your car isn't going to be worth money to someone else as an all original car.

RedLeader289

iTrader: (2)

Nice find! You're really comparing apples to oranges with those cars. If what you want is an original survivor-type car then you'll have to be ok with how it performs.

Your other option though is to do the swap (and you'll also have to swap in a beefier trans) and store your original drive train just so you know you always have it.

Honestly though you'll be hard-pressed to ever touch that awd GTR on a twisty course no matter what you do simply because of how thirdgens are set up.

Those are the options I see.

t/aws61985

iTrader: (2)

It it original. They are only original once.

okfoz

You could probably sell it as it is for $3000 right now... the LB9/MM5 is sought after in some groups...

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

I would have to keep this one original or maybe some reversible mods at best. If you wana race just get an old junk car already molested and fix it up to race. Pretty nice to have a manual Lb9 they are not easy to find anymore.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Original to a 350 with reversible mods

PAFORM350

original buddy. Enough non originals out there.

mantaguy

iTrader: (5)

I'm a Stock Guy.Stock

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

If it didn't have body and paint damage I could consider it for a Survivor original build.

However, it needs paint and body, so it will never be able to command any sort of premium without a fairly hefty investment towards bringing it back to even nice condition. The nose needs a repaint, the hood needs repair and re-paint. There is rust in the A-pillar, the fender has been jacked incorrectly it looks like and the mounts were bent, said incorrectly jacked fender has damaged the driver side door. There are dings near the door handle which might PDR out. But there is a mark there too on the side picture which might be dirt, or could be damaged paint.

The car is going to need a few thousand dollars to fix the damage and re-paint it correctly.

This car would make a great driver with spot painting and blending to fix the damage and prevent future rust. So originality is out of the window.

The 305 is meh, but really not a killer, swapping in a Vortec 350 shortblock would work great. If you drop a Vortec 350 long block in, you just need the Vortec base, and then even with the stock cam it will be plenty enjoyable as a cruiser and when you stomp on it even if it won't beat much.

Much like my own car, no matter how nice it will look, there is no worth with originality, too much had to be fixed even though it was all easily repairable. So I take its value in the enjoyment it provides to me. I love modding it. And its fairly healthy right now with the AFR 195's, ported intake, cam, and T56 swap. Its a driver, it will always be a driver car no matter how nice it looks on the outside. Too much wear n' tear over the past 26 years. It would take a significant investment to make my car show car quality.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

You couldn't be more wrong. Explain to us what is wrong with how "thirdgens are set up". I'd love to hear this.....

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Aside from some of the compromises the thirdgen suspension makes in terms of ride quality, I do agree with Jeremy. It can be setup to handle, there are several stock style setups owned by members of this board as examples.

90 GTA Black

I'd go for stock, or invisible mods if you must have more power.
If you go with a high HP motor then you need to do a lot of mods to the rest of the car to support the increased HP.

brett89

I agree with 90 GTA Black keep it looking stock. I see it's a Canadian car.
In Canada according to the GTA source page their were only 952 GTA 's made for 89 and probably only a handful made in white. GTA's are a tough find in Canada. Especially in good shape.

MONGO83

STOCK!

FinallyGotMyZ

In my estimation, you seem to be in a great position to have an original car. Yes, I know it needs some work (don't they all?), but as these cars get older and older (the '82s are now thirty-three years old!), I appreciate looking at these things at shows and cruise-ins and what not and seeing how they rolled off the line. To each his own, best of luck and have fun with it whatever you decide, but that is my honest and humble opinion. That opinion and $1.50 will get you a medium coffee at McDonald's.

crafty_z28

thanks for the input guys. Haha deff a lot of different thoughts to it. I know it'll be hard to compete with the GTR or even the FD, but the FD driver is the better driver by far, and it's more setup towards drag racing, which I have no real interest in. my F1a 4v stang just about killed me, literally. Honestly i'd be happy with the bird being basically stock. But like I said, I'd like to keep up on cruise days and look good for shows.
Yes I know it needs a little bit of work, just like FinallyGotMyZ said, they are getting old, and i DID only pay 2300 for it... I've already fixed a nice wiring hack thanks to the previous owner, and fix the VATS (seems to be a common issue). I'd like to have it running this year, as this fall/winter I'll be heading to Regina SK. for Depot (Mountie training). After Depot, a lot of officers end up in remote areas for their first two years (although some get lucky and get a decent city/town). the plan is to drive the car this year, and do my two years in a remote location or wherever, transfer over to Vancouver Island, BC and use the money saved up to totally restore the GTA's body.
Really I'd like to media blast it, make it straight, weld in SFCs, and repaint it GM Arctic White, reupholster the interior and clean it up real good. The only real Modifications I want to do no matter what: 1LE brake upgrade, EGR/air delete, and possibly lower it and inch/inch and a half to get rid of the 4x4 wheel gap...

90 GTA Black

1LE brakes and lowering sound good. It always surprises me when I look at 89-92 GTA's and see the big rear brakes and small front ones. It seems like the factory was planning on putting in the big brakes since GTA's had all the other 1le parts but somehow didn't.

I'm not sure that the air system changes performance much. I like seeing it in place on a stock car since it is usually missing.

okfoz

It actually had something to do with the 1LE... GM knew that the 1Le was going to be an extra cost, and There was probably a financial incentive to go with the larger rear brakes, for starters they only needed one Brake valve assembly, as with the larger rear brakes only you use the exact same valve as the drum brakes. The cost was probably not significantly more for the larger brakes when purchased in volume, in comparison if they only needed 100-200 assemblies a year the price would have been astronomical for the 1LE's. The front brakes were already being made with the rotor using the Caprice front rotor just re-drilled for the F-body bolt patten.

John

RedLeader289

iTrader: (2)

RWD, high center of gravity, and a rear-end that will slide out fairly easily due to it's geometry. I'll admit, they have a similar wheel base (somewhere in the neighborhood of 102"). I'm not saying they handle terrible, because they don't. The V6 models are a little more balanced due to where the engine sits. Sure, with significant suspension, wheels/tires, and chassis upgrades you can make them handle even better.

I love our cars, but there are others out there that will out perform them mod for mod when it comes to handling, etc. (though in a straight line the sky is the limit). What I was getting at is that if the OP does EVERYTHING he can do to his car, and the owner of that R32 does EVERYTHING he can do, the GTA would lose. Just being realistic.

crafty_z28

Pretty hard to disagree, dollar for dollar, yea the GTA would get stomped by the GTR. Like it was said above, it really is like comparing apples to oranges. All in all, I really just want to keep up on our cruises, if i wanted to stomp him, I would have bought a Corvette, IRS Stang, or built another AWD Talon.

On a side note, I'm leaning towards an LT1 swap, there's a few complete LT1s going for a decent price, almost never see any LS1s tho... and if I do, people always want 2k just for the engine...

okfoz

Now, if I am not mistaken, a GT-R is a $100,000 - $150,000 vehicle... You take that and the pinnacle of performance was the TTA or the Firehawk, the ($30,000) TTA new was $56,500 (inflation adjusted) and a new ($49000) Firehawk was $81,600 (Inflation adjusted)...

So really you might as well compare a newer Porsche...

I think the LT1 swap or the LS Swap is the way to go if you want to modify it... It is not a direct swap, things have to be done, but there are enough people that have done it at this point that any questions you have there should be an answer for.

John

RedLeader289

iTrader: (2)

Whatever you do, just be sure you know what engine you're putting in and do the research. You don't want some random junkyard block that may or may not be from a corvette but you happened to find already pulled and sitting in the back of an astrovan.

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

I voted LB9 with reversible mods - pretty much where I'll go with my 87-Z.

1MeanZ

iTrader: (9)

On paper the GTR seems superior, but in practice it's often a different story. There are no absolutes, that is my main point. Lots of cars handle better than a Thirdgen, but that doesnt automatically mean faster lap times. Anyone who has spent some time on a road course knows what I'm talking about.

Think of a Miata. They handle incredible when modded, but they never have any power so we don't usually think of them as stormers on track. I've been on track with them and they are serious in the turns. If I couldn't put buslengths on them down the back and front stretch at Gingerman, they would destory my lap times. Moral of the story, does a Miata always handle better than a Thirdgen, yes, they are lighter and have better suspension geometry. Does it mean it's a faster car on most courses, no. Same holds true for GTR vs Thirdgen. There is no fundamental flaw with the thirdgen suspension design that 100% assures the thirdgen is going to be slower than another car. There are so many other factors at play, you can't just say that because one car has better suspension geometry that it's automatically faster all the time. It felt like thats what you were saying in your other post.

Do a search for BIGMODS on here and check out his car. He still has a strut front suspension and a beam rear axle and I assure you he's faster than a GTR on track...

crafty_z28

So the decision was made lastnight, I called up a shop in Vancouver that had a Caprice Ex RCMP LT1, and placed a deposit down so I can pick it up once I'm done my set up in camp on the 25th. For $1100, I get literally everything. Engine/trans/Harness/Shorties/Pedals. Not a bad deal I think. I know the Iron head LT1 from the Caprice isn't as good as the Vette or F-Body twins, but it leaves me room to snag up some better heads/cam/tuning down the road once I replace the trans and rear with better quality gear.
I'll be sure to start a proper build thread once I get started, been doing a crazy amount of research on the wiring, so I'll be sure to document as much as I can since there's still A LOT of questions about the swap.

crafty_z28

You are right, the GTR is in a different class all together, but the r32-34 GTRs are also heavy pigs, I've helped a few friends push their GTRs without motor/trans, and they still feel heavier than my GTA in stock trim, that weight is a lot to push around and handle, Like I said, my Mazda3 (with only coilovers/rear swaybar/Perelli P-Zeros) is very close to him in most of the autocross tracks. Now on more open road course tracks and on the street, yea, he'd whoop my a$$ in either car, but I'm not going to drag race the car, and might see a road course half a dozen times in it's life. the GTA will mostly be a cruiser and see decent autocross time.

Ohh yea, lots of research being done now, it doesn't seem like it's going to be hard at all, just going to e time consuming, and just have to be patient and take my time

OMG I love BIGMODS' car! Such a bada$$ F-body. I don't think I'll ever go that hardcore, but you bring up a good point. I remember seeing a good quote in another forum, "with enough money, you can make anything go fast."
It's amazing what a driver can do to effect the performance of a vehicle racing. i've been autocrossing ever since I could drive legally, with different platforms (Talon TSi AWD / 04 SVT Cobra / Mazda3) I've even driven the GTR and done better times than he has (But he's only been racing three years compared to my ten)
From what I've learnt over the years is that even a Street Prep car with a skilled driver, can go faster than a fully prepped car with a novice driver.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Why did you get the pedals?

I assume this is an automatic package so there shouldn't be anything needed.

crafty_z28

They are selling it as a wrapped up package, I'm going to end up selling everything other than the engine and ECU/harness

gsmarcano

Whichever way you go, make sure you post it, so we can follow, I really liked the old GTA's, my uncle had one, I like em even more when the have some juice!

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

If you want to move to aluminum heads I have a set of stock 643s. Untouched.

I'll also have a set of heavily ported heads for a fair price once my AFR 195s arrive.

okfoz

I think they sell the peddles for people that are putting the engine in an older car. Remember older cars used linkages, our cars use cables for the throttle. Even newer cars are all Electronic controlled. So sometimes you need the parts... I think they just sell them that way to try to save you time.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

I would consider dumping Opti-Sputter from the get go.
https://www.eficonnection.com/eficon...n/default.aspx

Contact the Cascade guys to arrange visit, parts, etc.
http://www.cascadecrew.org/

crafty_z28

PM'd

that's the plan! I'll be starting a "build/questions" thread. And once i get the harness all built and sorted out, I'll do up a documented thread on that.

Yea i thought about it. once i rebuild it with higher compression, better heads, and an LT4 hotcam. then I want to run their system with a holley unit as the brains.