bjpotter

I really disliked the entire title of the previous thread. Though the originator of the thread started with good intentions, it morfed into negative territory quickly, With many defensive posts.

Here are some of my reasons for my belief 3rd Gens are gaining in desirability.
That is if they ever really lost any.
After all, they sold well over 1 Million of them and sold them for 11 years!
Obviously they were desired when new!

1. I'm starting to see more low mileage cars come on the market. Their asking prices are 12k+ depending on model, and much higher for more desirable and optioned models. This means to me, the owners now see a profit potential not seen before.
2. Mecum is featuring them more and more on choice selling days. At KC's April auction a IROC Z28 with 135 miles will sell on a Saturday!
3. Nice unmolested cars are disappearing and getting hard to find.
4. Rebuildable 2nd gens are getting expensive even for junk cars. Rebuilder's will move on to other options to make money.
5. Each year we lose more and more to junk yards, the crusher, parts cars or are just simply left to rot.
6. look at how many of us use this website and who obsess with our own 3rd Gens. Several of us have multiple cars or have previously owned one. How many tens of thousand of hours do our members spend on their cars each year!
Half projects with mystery motors and unusual add ons will probably never appreciate much. However, pristine originals or well engineered resto mods seem to be doing quite well!

FinallyGotMyZ

It's funny that I would come upon this thread. I literally came to thirdgen.org just now from AutoTrader.com. Just for fun, I ran the same exact search parameters that I ran two years ago this month when I found the Z28 I ultimately bought. Two years ago, I entered everything I wanted and entered a search radius of 200 miles. I got between 10-20 results back. I entered everything the same today, and not one result came up. After expanding my search to 500 miles, I got exactly one result. My Z was far from perfect when I got it, but if you gave me the choice between mine and the one I found today, I would pick the one I have. My point is that in two years, these are getting harder and harder to come by. I really hope to see increases in the amount of restoration and replacement parts available as these cars get the attention they are beginning to get.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Anyone who can't see that nice 3rd gens are appreciating in price, just isn't paying attention.

mantaguy

iTrader: (5)

Actually the count is well over 2 million,2,294,726 not counting 83 Firebird(have no data on that year)


[Anyone who can't see that nice 3rd gens are appreciating in price, just isn't paying attention.]quote

bjpotter

In the long run, I don't know if anything other than Museum quality will be worth much. Each year technology advances. New non gasoline powered vehicles are being designed and manufactured. Electric, Hydrogen and others will someday rule the road. EPA standards and rules, especially in cities, will go against the "Old Dirty Tech" and we will be limited to when and where we can drive. When this happens, gas stations will begin to disappear, and costs will go up. We may be in the last 20 - 30 years of gas cars as we now know them.

Driver less cars is another coming trend that could effect things. Cars without that tech might be limited to certain roads or banned altogether.

When gasoline gets expensive again and or scarce the value of all, but the most special cars that are gas powered, will plummet.

At least for now we can drive them, modify them and enjoy them to our hearts content.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

A fully loaded 83 L69 Z28 was around $13,500 in April 1983.

Let's assume you bought one, parked it, and sold it today with some kind of extremely low miles, and it was a $12k car.

In April 1983, the CPI was at 98.6. In Jan 2015 it was at 233.7. That means that, that $13,500 in 1983, is worth 237.7 ÷ 98.6 × $13,500 today, or about $32545.

That means that in today's dollars, you would have lost around $20,000 CASH on a buy-and-hold strategy.

Meanwhile, if you put that $13,500 into the stock market or something, where the historical rate of return is around 6%, you would have around $87,000 today.

In that comparison, you would have lost $75,000 in todays' money on a buy-and-hold strategy, compared to a buy-and-hold of something like a S&P 500 fund.

So yeah; prices may be "going up", for those RARE survivors; but they aren't typical (that is, they're not going to make some trailer park lawn ornament worth more), and no matter what, anybody that bet on them gaining value, would have lost their a$$ comparatively speaking. In fact I doubt that the "appreciation" even of those RARE few unmolested specimens is going up TODAY any faster than inflation over the period from the 80s & 90s to today.

I agree w bjpotter. The "value" of these cars IS NOT what you can sell one for; it's in the enjoyment you get out of one when you own it. These cars will NEVER EVER have the kind of "value" that 60s muscle cars do, and anybody that deludes themselves into thinking so, deserves what they get. (large losses)

bjpotter

I know a lot of investments that didn't fair well. Ask the gold buyers from 2 years ago.

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Cars are almost always a losing investment.

I'm a guy who enjoys seeing them driven. Either as a cruiser or put on track. They are going to lose value anyways, might as well get the enjoyment of actually driving it.

((Mike))

iTrader: (1)

I agree with sofaking. These cars are never going to see the prices of say the 1969 camaro. They have a much smaller fan base and people who have these cars love to "fix them up" with ugly cowl hoods, ridiculous stereos and alarms that butcher the wire harnesses and aftermarket vatozone parts. In states like commiefornia its impossible to give them any extra power because of the ridiculous emissions regulations. And they are seriously lacking in that department. Nice ones with low miles will always fetch between 10 and 20 grand from the few serious buyers who want that car they had in high school. The rest will make their way to the crusher as their owners will get tired of dumping money into them.

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

Desirable...

Look at it... to me, the most appealing cars have lines and curves... more lines than curves, and the 3rd gen embodies just that to me... I was a teen in the 80's... The people who grew up with 69 Camaro's are dying off... and if not just for an investment, someone in our era would prefer a thirdgen... or GNX, or 87 Mustang GT 5 speed, etc...

If I won or was given a 69 Camarro, I'd sell it and buy those 3 80's cars I just mentioned...

the 2nd gen Fbodies... too round for me... the 4th gen, some look nice, but some of the Firebirds look like over inflated balloons... way too round / too many curves. 3rd gen has lines that remind me of a 69 Charger... probably the ONLY old car I would like...

If you're desiring $$$, as noted above, probably not a 3rd gen for a long time...
If you desire the car... great time to buy!

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

My dad has a 68 chevelle ss396 and a 58 corvette 4spd car sitting in his shop. Ive drove them and while they look good, have good power and straight line performance that's about it to me. They are nothing special I would rather have the $ they are worth and go buy some of those 80s cars and maybe a new corvette instead of one that doesn't even have power steering! Its not about having something worth a lot of $ just collecting dust to me its about enjoying the car and putting it on the road. And contrary to what some people may claim a STOCK 396 SS is not a rocket. I blew the doors off that car with a mild vortec headed 350 in my 87 GTA a few years back. But I have to agree with some that our 3rd gens will probably never reach prices comparable to these old nostalgic 60s cars.

jholben

Years ago when I was riding a "rice burning" two-wheeler, a friend on a 88 Sportster said " Why don't you sell that rice-burner and get a "real" motorcycle", as he was getting his tool kit out from under his seat to adjust something before he left work. I replied, "If I wanted a hobby, I'd get a "bike" like yours. But I don't want a hobby, I want something to ride!" I feel similar to that now, just from the other side. I didn't buy this car (totally stock, one-owner, 91 Camaro RS) because I wanted a day-to-day ride. I bought this car because I wanted a hobby. Something that interests me, that I can spend lots of time, and hopefully little money, working on and restoring to "as good as new" condition. So I and my wife can ENJOY it! Not climb in it every day to take part in the "daily grind". No Sirree! I want to work on it and have the satisfaction that knowing it's alive and running 24 years later because of me, as I pull up beside the little, tiny, over-engineered, fuel efficient, people-coop that looks like it's being driven by someone depressed because they don't have a car like mine!

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

So the bottom line is, one of the primary reasons these cars ARE desirable, is precisely because their prices ARE NOT outrageous like the old muscle cars. That means that those of use who like them can easily afford to buy them, and we can enjoy them for their DRIVING ability without having to worry about "investment".

This kind of car is sharp-looking, handles well, comfortable inside, and easy and cheap to work on. While in stock trim they're woefully underpowered by the standards of other eras including modern cars, that's not all that hard to fix. Their virtues lie in being FUN, not in being museum pieces.

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

Very well stated.

bjpotter

Buying almost any car for investment is a crap shoot. Unlike a painting or gold, a car must be maintained to keep its value or to increase in value. The owners of a Ferrari and Lambo I met, used rentals of the cars (Pictures, Movies) to pay the insurance and maintenance costs. When you figure these costs into the cars cost and value, only the most valuable cars are even worth investing in to make money.
Except for the few truely rare cars even most 1st and 2nd gens were bad investments when you figure in 45-50 years of cost.

FinallyGotMyZ

Just wanted to throw in that I did not buy mine with the intent of it becoming a museum piece, or a show car. I have never owned a third gen Camaro, and two years ago I decided it was time. The timing wasn't ideal (as my wife was sure to let me know at the time, lol), but seeing where the prices have gone makes me glad I pulled the trigger when I did. They're still not terribly expensive now, but they're getting to a point where I might not have been able to get one for my price point. They're out there for sure, but you're going to have to dig deeper into your wallet to get one. I have plans to get mine painted this spring and get it back to what it looked like when it drove off the lot, and then I plan to drive it. Pop the tops, enjoy the weather, take it to an occasional cruise-in, but drive it. That's going to be harder for the average Joe (like me) to do going forward because of the desirability and the subsequent uptick in cost.

bjpotter

So true. I've said often, I like the fact I could afford a nice one. Afford to keep it running, and not so paranoid to drive it almost anywhere.
The average person drives an economy box car. Take your pick of colors Grey, White, Black, Tan and all the electronics of home. Divert their attention from driving the "piece of " they bought.
I look forward every time I get to drive my Bird. Other than good tunes, I want nothing to get in the way of a good drive. I'll call you back next time I stop. And don't hold your breath.

FinallyGotMyZ

You said it. Mine was kind of Frankenstein'd together (wrong steering wheel, wrong wheels, etc.) but the rest of it was worth buying. Can't wait til it's where I want it to be.

bjpotter

Good luck with your fixes. Yesterday and today I got to drive my car. The first time in a month and a half. The smile on my face didn't stop till I parked it.

FinallyGotMyZ

Thanks for the well-wishes. And I only wish it'd been only a month and a half since I drove mine. I garaged mine in the first week of November and based on the lovely weather here in Ohio, it'll be mid-April before I can get it out.

bjpotter

I only drove my car because of repair issues with the wife car. Her car fixed, snow this morning means it's parked again. Next week they promise 50's to 70's, may yet snow before the winter ends, but I'm looking forward to driving regularly again.

Bob88GTA

iTrader: (2)

193,000+ Smiles And loving every mile!
Well, except the time the radiator tank let loose 2 miles from the house and it had to be hauled home. Fixed that and moved along!

bjpotter

In the last 2 weeks, I have seen several cars come up for sale with low mileage. 2 TTA's, one for 20K another at 13K. Several Camaro's starting at 12K and up and some GTA's starting at 10K and up.
Spring has brought out some nice cars for sale. Some are selling too. I've seen at least 3 of those ad's vanish or say Sold.

Bob88GTA

iTrader: (2)

bj, now we just need "SPRING" so we can drive them!

bjpotter

Here Here!

Slater126

iTrader: (1)

Don't matter. Those cars have an extra 500 HP from nostalgia. Third Gens will likely go up, but will never hit that level. Gen X has no where near the size or spending power.

okfoz

I think one of the things people are not realizing is 1) Purchasing a NEW car right now, like a new Z28, ZL1, Hellcat, is a horrible idea for an investment. 2) Purchasing a nice USED vehicle a few years old for 1/2 price is a better idea. 3) Purchasing a clean low miles 3rd gen 5 years ago would have been a GREAT idea...

Here is the thing, the values (economy willing) will continue to rise from this point forward. For so many years third gens were at the bottom, they really did not move from 1997 - 2011 a whole lot. I am now seeing cars that have doubled in value over the past 5-10 years. What I bought in 2002 for $2000 I could probably sell for $4000... Of course a lot of that has to do with inflation. Unfortunately there are a lot of junkers out there that really hold the values down, but when those are gone, the values will start to rise.

John

bjpotter

91-92 Firebird Formula's may already be there. All I see are Mint Formula's with prices north of 12K, wore out junk or mystery motor nightmares. I've been looking for a "bargain" resto candidate with under 130k. I'm still looking. I've missed a couple, but there are not many to be found. Not real ones anyway.

Thanks to this website I can now tell the difference.

I'm really glad I snagged mine 2 years ago, I got a steal at 4K. Below value even then.

loopy

iTrader: (1)

I really brought mine to drive and I like it so much it has become my daily driver.
It's not mint, rattles a fair bit, leaks through the t tops and I love it.
It gives me a real buzz to drive.
One of the best things about it is getting waves and thumbs up from people as I go past.

It's a keeper!

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

Post over lol.

Jonesyfxr

iTrader: (2)

I've never really been a third gen guy, but my wife was. She used to own a blue 85 Iroc back in the day. My buddy kept telling about this Iroc that I just had to see, so I caved. We went over to the Morton building and inside under a cover was a silver 85 Iroc. Is was extremely clean and you could eat off the under carriage. I asked what the guy would want for it, we haggled a little and came to an agreement.

I bought this car for my wife, but also because it was un-molested. It was completely original and never saw a winter. I know some kid would cut it up or worse. I just had to save a piece of American automotive history.

bjpotter

[QUOTE
One of the best things about it is getting waves and thumbs up from people as I go past. QUOTE]

So far my shout out's favorites are

1. "Its A Firebird, Its A Firebird" Screamed by a 7-8 year old boy out of his dad's truck.

2. "Now That's A Car" by a Big black lady in her SUV.

3. "Hey Firebird Get Over Here" by the Friday night car club at the Sonic.

loopy

iTrader: (1)

Nice.
I had a 50 ish year old lady come out of a shop and say to her husband "I want to have a car like that"

Last night a much younger lady said " that's a sick car man" as I came out of a restaurant and getting in the car.

It seems to appeal to a wide range of people

FirebirdUSX

"What year is that ferrari" - Gas station

in Europe many people think its a ferrari

They notice its not a Ferrari when you park it next to one....its about 1 meter longer than most Ferrari's ....even small american cars are big by european standards

luvofjah

iTrader: (2)

I was working on my car in the drive way...
A 7ish year old kid rides up on his bike and says, "Cool race car!"
I hit the remote for the scanner / SFX (KR Replica)....
Kid says, "now it looks cheesy"....

Kid hasn't been seen since

That's been the only bad reaction to the scanner / SFX turning on "by itself", usually it's smiles, etc... Then they start talking about when they were kids, who they watched the show with, etc...

Rafael

bjpotter

[QUOTE"What year is that ferrari" - Gas station

in Europe many people think its a ferrari

I had someone ask me if mine was a Ferrari at a gas station. I laughed and said "Yes its a poor man's Ferrari!"

mantaguy

iTrader: (5)

FirebirdUSX

@15,000 euro for a Trans Am in Europe than add the huge taxes for big engine and maintenance....pretty sure that is NOT a poor man's feerari

GCrites80s

I remember when I got back from visiting Germany and people would be like "What would happen if you moved there?" I had a both 944 and my IROC at the time. I told them, "The 944 would be the cheap one to fix and the IROC would be expensive to fix then!"

bjpotter

No matter where you live, imported cars and car parts are always expensive

FirebirdUSX

so clearly poor people don't buy Trans Ams in europe ...if thats the case it can't be the poor man's ferrari.

loopy

iTrader: (1)

All cars are imported here so the Camaro costs out quite favorably to most jap parts.Thats importing my own parts except gaskets plugs etc.
It has the advantage of being old school tech so I can service/fix it myself.

bjpotter

Clearly I was in the US. I promise not to make that joke outside the confines of the USA. I forget we have such a international crowd.

loopy

iTrader: (1)

Lol.... All good.

While 3rd gens were never big sellers over here new, there seem to be quite a few on our roads now, I guess , due to the fact that they are the cheapest American v8 muscle/ sports coupe available and importers are grabbing them.

PurelyPMD

iTrader: (3)

I think I said it in the other thread - It's truly a unique time to be seeking out these cars. Just like the 60's/70's muscle cars were 20 years ago, parts cars can be bought for a couple hundred and really nice original cars can still be found for a few thousand. We've hit bottom and are on our way up fast, good thing is, not everyone has caught on yet.

okfoz

I noticed a trend a few years ago... Everyone expects a fast increase in prices, like they will buy a car on Saturday and then sell it on Monday for double... It is a slow calculated progression. Cars that were selling in the mid teens 3-4 years ago are selling in the 20's and 30's now... Just take that Yellow 1987 IROC 350 that bidding went to $31,000...

John

bjpotter

2 years ago when I got my current Bird, I saw several similar Firebird/TA's in the same price range 4-6K. I just don't see many any more.
Cars in the condition mine was in, sub 120,000 and in original good working condition, are selling in the $5000's to $10,000 range. Now cars with one or two big problems sell for what I paid for mine. You can still find bargins for the 6 cyl, but original 5.7L cars are getting expensive.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

Just an FYI. In my local newspaper the featured Classic Ride this week is a stock yellow 87 IROC-Z 350. I've seen alot of these cars being expensively built and featured a bunch of places also. It's all up from here.

SolarGoldRaptor

Honestly, no. The 944 can be very expensive to fix, Porsche prices are ridiculous sometimes. And I'm not even talking about the 928...it's another level of BS (1600€ for a new stock muffler...).

Even with the shipping costs and taxes, the new parts for my T/A remain very cheap.

Third gens may lack in overall build quality or raw power, but they look fantastic, are generally easy to work with, and the maintenance cost are among the lowest of any car I know.



On another note, the 80's car are growing in interest these days. Take the Testarossa for instance, last year you could get a nice one for around $60,000, they stayed advertised for ages as nobody wanted them, now most of them are in the $90K~$100K and sell quick. So I'm sure third gens will follow the same trend and gain respect.

IMissMy86TA

This thread makes me hopeful. I did not buy this car as an investment. No car is a good investment. But I plan to keep miles low and pass it to my Son when I go to that bug race track in the sky. He and I love the drives we have and the shows we go to. Going to the Nats this year with him and hope to make some memories : http://www.78ta.com/nats/about.html I think he may sell it one day and hope he gets a good price. This bodes well for that. I hope he can get 40K out of it one day. I bet you guys on the other side of the pond would love to go to that TA show