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History / OriginalityGot a question about 1982-1992 Camaro or Firebird history? Have a question about original parts, options, RPO codes, when something was available, or how to document your car? Those questions, answers, and much more!
Gotta admit, unsubstantiated claims of 5.7L 86 Irocs, give me rage induced blackouts. They're the super-cringey kind of non-car-enthusiast, BIG FISH story, told around the opened hood of your buddy's cool new car. Some blithering idiot desperate for some attention says something so monumentally stupid that it sends you into an epileptic episode.
Noteworthy examples I've heard
- Sixties Dodge cop cars all came with superchargers.
- my put a marine cam in his 4cyl Blazer, it popped into gear, drove into a lake, and kept running underwater.
- in the 80's my brother's, sister's, uncle's third cousin, twice removed, nextdoor neighbor's penpal's crush had a 84 Z28 with a quad-turbocharged LT5 ZR1 engine out of a Vette because her dad was friends with the guy who went to sleepaway camp with the second cousin of the chick who was working at the McDonalds cross the street from the Pontiac dealer. If you know the right people, you could order anything you want.
- I had a 5.7L 86 Camaro, it was one of those 50 test cars you read about all the time.
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15 or 20 years ago I was at an autocross. There was a guy there with an '89-ish GTA with a 5 speed and what he claimed was a "factory experimental" 350. He drove the car extremely poorly and got terrible times. Later, someone ran over one of his t-tops which he had carelessly left in an empty parking spot. He was very angry.
Too bad you weren't there Drew, you would have enjoyed it.
True, but I'll believe what my registration said, and the reps at my Chevrolet dealer who actually looked it up, before I believe some random guy name Drew who would rather sit online argue with a stranger then do his homework
Some "random guy" who has owned thirdgens non-stop since 1995? That was asked to moderate this History/Restoration forum when it was created in 1999? The same "Random Guy" who edited an wrote a fair chunk of the "Tech Data" history on this site? The "random guy" with 14K posts on the forum, that rarely asks for information. Yeah, you're probably right. Your memory of a conversation with someone 20 years ago is probably more accurate than some random guy that knew enough about Thirdgen history to be an authority on the topic 18 years ago.
We get it, you were a gullible and trusting teenager. It's alright, it's not your fault.
Drew, you said so many words that I got lost, but they sounded really good!
RDPrime, we're not calling you a liar. What's happening here is that since the beginning of TGO, people have made claims of things only "heard" about, but have never provided proof of their claim. In regards to this claim, you keep stating that the registration said something about the 5.7L or the 350. Registrations don't list the engine anywhere on it. Are you thinking the title? We already know, and have proof, that the licensing/titling agencies document incorrect information. Many Firebird owners titles state that they may have a Formula, only because of the VIN designation. That doesn't make it a Formula.
Now, with this info that you've suggested, you're like everyone else that's made a claim and can't prove it. How did the dealership verify the car was numbers matching? The VIN stamped on the prototype 350 cars designated a 305, then they were retrofitted with a 350. So, if the partial VIN stamped on your engine block matched the VIN on the windshield, then the car was a 305. A retrofitted 350 into a 305 VIN car, would not match.
Lastly, dealerships usually know less than the consumer about the cars they sell or service. In 1990, I had a friend with a 1987 Mustang LX, 4 cylinder. Somebody hit the car and he repaired it to look like a GT, then traded it in at the local dealership. I saw it there and the sales people tried selling the car to me as a GT. I challenged the sales team that it was a 4 cylinder and they stated the car went through their multi point inspection and showed me paperwork that the service department outlined it as a GT.
So, dealerships have been proven wrong, service departments have been proven wrong, titling agencies have been proven wrong, and so has every single claim of an '86 350 from the factory sold to the public.
Please provide some evidence/proof of it existing, or we will all just agree that you were misinformed 20 years ago as a 16 year old kid, and believed you had something that didn't exist.
15 or 20 years ago I was at an autocross. There was a guy there with an '89-ish GTA with a 5 speed and what he claimed was a "factory experimental" 350. He drove the car extremely poorly and got terrible times. Later, someone ran over one of his t-tops which he had carelessly left in an empty parking spot. He was very angry.
Too bad you weren't there Drew, you would have enjoyed it.
20 years ago you can't help but wonder if the guy truly felt thats what he had. Kinda like my post way earlier in this thread about being told there where no early 350 T-top GTA's because of the extra HP. Didn;t want to twist the body with all the extra HP. Well, That's what I was told 25 years ago by somebody who "knew" & the only reason I didn't believe it was because I already owned my 87 350 that had t-tops. So that made zero sense to me at the time. But I didn't know why they didn't exist. No google back then, just word of mouth, or info from the dealer who you hoped knew what they were talking about. Heck, I didn't learn until reading on this site about the weight thing.
The amount of information that is at out there at our fingertips is truly quite amazing if you look in the right places. I got my first computer in 1992 & sending an email was quite amazing. And yes, I was one of those fools that paid over $300 just for an 8mb memory upgrade when it went on sale. 486SX I believe, with a color monitor.
Last edited by F-body-fan; 01-25-2018 at 04:32 PM.
I am. RDPrime is a liar. He's the kind of sad person that has to make ridiculous claims like this, for attention. Maybe he believes what he's saying, maybe he's a troll from the Dodge Neon forum, trying to get us all riled up in revenge for that guy in a bitchin' Camaro that told him his Turbo Kermit will never be a race car regardless how many stickers he slaps on it.
IDK, I just find it entertaining. Saying we need to do our homework and learn about something that never existed, when the burden of proof is on himself and the best he can do is a voiceover narration on a cheesy Youtube video.
Sorry for being long winded and feeding the troll, but it's kinda fun.
I am. RDPrime is a liar. He's the kind of sad person that has to make ridiculous claims like this, for attention. Maybe he believes what he's saying, maybe he's a troll from the Dodge Neon forum, trying to get us all riled up in revenge for that guy in a bitchin' Camaro that told him his Turbo Kermit will never be a race car regardless how many stickers he slaps on it.
IDK, I just find it entertaining. Saying we need to do our homework and learn about something that never existed, when the burden of proof is on himself and the best he can do is a voiceover narration on a cheesy Youtube video.
Sorry for being long winded and feeding the troll, but it's kinda fun.
It's kinda like telling a Professor who holds multiple Ph.D's to do his homework
I was just telling people my experience and that was it. I wasn't trying to boast or brag or anything of the sort. I was just telling you guys my experience and I feel like everybody's jumping on my case and telling me I'm lying for something that I went through.
You gotta' understand; You walked onto a horse-farm and told all the Thirdgen cowboys in the corral that you owned a Unicorn. All us cowboys ( looked around at each other and start laughing because we know that you - as a 16 Y/O kid - were eager to believe that your 86 Trans Am had a factory 350 in it when we all know that was just a horse with a horn taped to it's head. We're not going to waste our time trying to validate what YOU believe because we already know better. It's up to you to back up your claims if you want to be believed.
To make such a claim without any back-up/documentation is simply asking for an argument. Arguments are not a bad thing,... but at least be prepared to argue. ( I know it was a unicorn isn't an argument ! )
Am I showing my age if I told you guys that I was a computer tech and was upgrading 10MB hard drives to 20 or 40MB. I also upgraded corporate computers for a client in Minneapolis from four 256k (total 1MB RAM) to four 1MB modules for a total of 4MB, and that was A LOT of memory for the time!
Oh, and to keep this on topic...Doctor Doodoo head. LOL
I spent 4 years in over the phone tech support, from 96-0000, over the Y2K scare. When I started out, customers had a general idea. During the cheap Pentium boom, when Joe Dork with no PC experience would go out and buy a new computer, and 20 minutes later use the 3.5" floppy boot diskette to accidentally format his hard drive, things got insufferable.
8hrs a day in a headset, telling people to click OK and read the next screen... 45 minutes to an hour reinstalling Windows 95 with the automate.inf script, and loading all the drivers manually one at a time. I had a lot of time to read books, browse the internet, becoming a Yo-Yo champion, destroy a slinky, wear out Rubik's Cubes, and so on. Ok, what is it saying saying now? Ok, click OK for me. Uh huh... Yep, go ahead and click next... Don't even get me started on DirectX. Think it was Myst that would install a DirectX video driver that wasnt compatible with Gateway's OEM graphics cards...
The resident experts all in on place..well I gotta ask, were the promo '86 350s all destroyed or what? All my reading to-date had very little on the Final Destination for these puppies other than they weren't sold to the public.
The resident experts all in on place..well I gotta ask, were the promo '86 350s all destroyed or what? All my reading to-date had very little on the Final Destination for these puppies other than they weren't sold to the public.
It's been awhile since I was in the Heritage Center to look, but don't recall GM selling anything like that when the Heritage cars and trucks were sold off at Barrett Jackson in 2009. You may recall, in the January B-J Auction, all was fine, selling the vehicles (Most with EX plates for VINs), but once someone else was sworn-in, seems the EPA cracked down on the collection being sold, and protested the sale at the Florida auction a few months later.
I was at B-J in Scottsdale in 2009 and some friends ended up with pretty neat cars. One was an LT5 in a Camaro. There were others, but that one was memorable.
Back on-topic, manufacturers will either crush/destroy non-compliant vehicles, or hide them away in warehouse/museums.
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Last edited by Big&BadGTA; 01-25-2018 at 09:08 PM.
Best guess, they were recycled. Most likely destroyed, because keeping them around after would just mean they're taking up space, and it'd be just as easy to write them off. After being thru the wringer with testing, and demos to Motor Week, and the car mags, it's pretty safe to assume whatever was leftover was rough. The other thing we can show from existing documentation (photos, articles, etc) was that GM often would keep a test mule or concept car to be repurposed later. You can see an example of this in the 92 Heritage Z28 that was rebuilt as an LT1 demo car, and later got painted yellow and had the Ramjet installed to get attention for that package. I would say it's safe to assume these practices started long before the end of production.
Here are a couple odd thirdgens that were in GM's collection in the past...
You gotta' understand; You walked onto a horse-farm and told all the Thirdgen cowboys in the corral that you owned a Unicorn. All us cowboys ( looked around at each other and start laughing because we know that you - as a 16 Y/O kid - were eager to believe that your 86 Trans Am had a factory 350 in it when we all know that was just a horse with a horn taped to it's head. We're not going to waste our time trying to validate what YOU believe because we already know better. It's up to you to back up your claims if you want to be believed.
To make such a claim without any back-up/documentation is simply asking for an argument. Arguments are not a bad thing,... but at least be prepared to argue. ( I know it was a unicorn isn't an argument ! )
That's well put. And playing the devils advocate with that analogy in mind, RDPrime is probably not ocd with the 3rd gens like others in the corral are. So, he might have been thinking is old car was more of an albino horse rather than a unicorn. Kinda like being abducted by aliens, Sure it could happen, but don't tell a soul unless you can could prove it without a doubt.
As far as old school folklore, Some of you know I bought my 87 Iroc when it was about 5-6 years old. In 95 I decided to put it away because It had the "rare", very limited production 5.7 engine. Well, that's what I believed & was told nearly the entire time I owned it & I also regurgitated that info over the decades. Not trying to mislead anyone, its just what I believed at the time. Now, we all know that the 87 350 cars were not all that rare at all. They were supposed to be, but GM jumped in with both feet after orders came pouring in. No big secret, But I didn't learn that until reading articles on the web. It was actually heart breaking to learn my 87 was pretty common. But, If I would have known that 20+ years ago, I would have sold it instead of putting into storage, so in this case I am ok with the information I had.
Information by the way That GM printed in sales literature.....
Last edited by F-body-fan; 01-26-2018 at 06:48 AM.
I'm really getting tired of people calling me names on this site. First it was magpie doo doo head, which I deflected to Drew, but now I'm being charged with OCD. If you want to be accurate, it should be CDO! In alphabetic order please!!! Geez people. I need to find a safe space and do some "Woosahs" to bring myself down. I may be getting PTSD from all of this name calling!!!!! It's good that my ADD and ADHD will keep me from remembering all of this stress.
I had forgotten about the 510 Camaro, (even tho I have the article on file) its pretty much a firehawk with a bigblock.
So is the 510 Camaro the same car as the red 91/92 on the front of "How to Tune and Modify your thirdgen"? Seems I read that somewhere. Aside from the graphics, wheels, louvers, it seems to match up. The engine compartment of the 510 Camaro appears in the book too.
So is the 510 Camaro the same car as the red 91/92 on the front of "How to Tune and Modify your thirdgen"? Seems I read that somewhere. Aside from the graphics, wheels, louvers, it seems to match up. The engine compartment of the 510 Camaro appears in the book too.
That I don't know for sure.. I'm going to have to dig out my book on how to modify my Camaro for a refresher
All joking aside, what RDPrime needs to do at this point is to bring proof to the table. No "I remember this" or "I remember that" Some hard evidence must present itself to be believable. In my experience Feelings or memory have little to do with reality. When there is a car accident you can ask 10 people that watched the accident happen, and they will each give you a different account of what really happened. Unless there is video proof, you have to piece the multiple eyewitness accounts to come up with a picture of what really happened.
Same thing goes with a Title or a piece of paper that claims to have the 350 or 5.7 on it, whether or not you remember correctly, even if it was to settle a bet, anyone's memory 20 years later is not reliable in the least, and any good historian would not take the memory of someone who was 16 years old 25 years later and actually publish it as fact.
As the old saying goes "put up or shut up" really applies here. Of the supposed 50 1986 Trans Am's or IROC's that were supposedly made in 1986, not a single car has ever surfaced. As something that is apparently desirable beyond all imagination and would bring 2 decades of arguing to an abrupt end, not a single example has ever been discovered. All we have is the memory of someone's youth which brings no evidence to the subject, it does nothing constructive, all it does is start a war. As a case in point, there was 43 Formula 350 convertibles made, I have found 19 of the 43 in the past 12 years! And for there to be 50 of these unicorns out there in public hands and not a single example to come to light tells me one thing... They do not exist until someone can prove that they are real
There are no good guys or bad guys here, we all just want to get to the bottom of the truth, and nothing but the truth.
RDPrime It is your turn, please supply hard proof to your claim, memory or not, truth or not, it is moot as there is no evidence to any fact.
I think what RDPrime and other people that come here to throw out stories like this do not realize is thirdgen.org is not just your typical forum where we discuss and take things at face value. We take our hobby seriously, any attack is not at the person, as I know that most people here are nice good people with good intentions.
The bottom line is what is the reality of the situation, we have a new member that chimes in to speak his case and his belief that he owned some car that was made 30 years ago and the only evidence is a memory.
At the end of the day, the only thing that has happened is someone shoved a stick in a beehive and now complain that they got stung. If you have evidence, if you have proof, we will back off completely and we are willing to rewrite the history of the third gen F-body to make it fit.
This is not about anyone's feelings, this is about the integrity of the site. Thirdgen.org does not give out participation trophies, TGO is about making and understanding the cars the best we can with the evidence we are presented with, and until hard evidence presents itself to be contrary to legend... We will beat back the legends and false memories until they are whimpering in retreat.
Memory is a funny thing - every time I think of the 70 TA I had back in 1995 I remember it being white but when I look at the picture, it is, in fact blue.
Like I said in post #150 - post up the VIN & I will send for the GM docs. The VIN may show as a 305 but it's the ship to/bill to that we are interested in. If it was one of the modified cars it will show engineering as the ship to even if it was subsequently delivered & billed to a dealer. My 90 TA 1LE had a ship to of GM Chassis Division with a bill to of the dealership in Flint.
As for your read of the rest of the crew here - there is no group who would like more to prove you right than the guys here - it's just that we've heard every single leprechaun, unicorn, rainbow story there is and tend to doubt them now when they show up.
It seems RDPrime has been chased off. I was interested in hearing his take on where/who he got the car from. But I guess he's gone now.
If he would have said something along the lines of: "My friend's dad owned a Detroit area junkyard. They had an IROC there which was supposed to be crushed but never was. I bought it with a salvage title and indications that the last owner was GM. The car was very fast and it always looked like there was something different about it. I went to the Chevy dealer to ask about it, but they were clueless......"
Not really. A tall tale is still a tall tale. "My dad has a dealership" doesn't increase the likelihood that a story is authentic, it's still just a story.
Everyone wants to say that their car is something special. I stopped giving credence to tall tales years ago.
Originally Posted by TTOP350
That I don't know for sure.. I'm going to have to dig out my book on how to modify my Camaro for a refresher
Ironically, the stand in example of a thirdgen pictured though-out the book is a 1LE 5spd Formula. LOL
The problem is, this has come up so much that we just dog-pile on the poor people who claim stuff like this. I would love to see someone actually post proof with a legit VIN, SPID, the whole nine yards. It would mean that we have been wrong for the past 22 years, but that is what I crave, learning and seeing something new, and rewriting the history books.
Would I like to see one? Sure! Heck I even have a legitimate proof that someone actually ordered an 86 IROC 350.... It ended up being an incompatible... Might be in this thread somewhere, I know I have posted my paperwork.
The problem is, this has come up so much that we just dog-pile on the poor people who claim stuff like this.
Would I like to see one? Sure! Heck I even have a legitimate proof that someone actually ordered an 86 IROC 350.... It ended up being an incompatible... Might be in this thread somewhere, I know I have posted my paperwork.
Yeah, we've heard it so often we automatically assume it's BS. But, I always like to keep an open mind, at least initially. That poor RDPrime probably never figured he'd run into a buzz saw by bringing his story to TGO.
If he just would have had some shred evidence or at least a plausible story to go with it, I think his story would have been more acceptable.
Oh I think RDPrime knew exactly what he was doing. Go back and go over the posts he made. First off, this isn't even a cold call, he replied to a two page existing thread. Only a blithering idiot would jump into a long thread and make a claim like his with no evidence.
Then look at his replies when he's called out.
Originally Posted by RDPrime
I'm not trying to prove to you that I had one because you will never believe me just like when no one believed me when I was 16 years old.
Originally Posted by RDPrime
Do your homework and you'll see.
Does this sound like someone with something valid to contribute to the discussion, or does it seem like trolling?
We've seen plenty of odd things proven with actual documentation. We're plenty open to learning when it's presented in the right manner. We weren't any harder on this guy than any other forum would have been.
I agree with Drew. The member had the opportunity to support his claim and contribute to the forum.
We're all still learning 26 years after the last Third Gen but I think it was he that didn't do his homework if he thought his story would go over well without any details, not answering any questions (where the car came from, who he knew, posting VIN or find ANY old documentation for the car supporting the VIN or car, etc.,) and getting pretty defensive when simply asked for supporting information.
An old classmate of mine texted me today. He said his office manager has an '86 IROC with a 5.7 she wants to sell and wants me to help her. I told him it can't be a 5.7 and to send me some pics.
Has anyone seen any of the pre-production 1986 5.7 prototype cars? I have read and heard that about 50 were produced prior to the 1987 5.7 introduction.
Lol if we really wanted to get something going I would like to see proof of one of the 1986 L69 Camaros. From what I have read there were 74 L69 1986 Camaros produced. If this is accurate or not I have no idea. All of the 1986 Z28's and IROC's I have seen were either LG4 or LB9 powered. Maybe they were used in the players challenge series that year since the LB9/5-speed combination wasn't available until 1987.
Well, there you go! It has a 5.7 TPI badge right there! What other proof do you need? Also looks like a "pre-production" '88'-'90 IROC-Z badge, on an '86!. Rare!
Could have sworn I remember reading an article that showed pix of an 86 with a 350 in it? You could plainly see it was an engineering engine compartment. Had a bunch of measurement marks on the lines, hoses and other things. Kind of neat really. Now if it really was a 350, I'm not sure it said that was the car. Heck it could have been a preproduction 85 using a 84 with a 305 TPI.
Could have sworn I remember reading an article that showed pix of an 86 with a 350 in it? You could plainly see it was an engineering engine compartment. Had a bunch of measurement marks on the lines, hoses and other things. Kind of neat really. Now if it really was a 350, I'm not sure it said that was the car. Heck it could have been a preproduction 85 using a 84 with a 305 TPI.
I remember that as well, Tony. IIRC, it was a dark red car?
Could have sworn I remember reading an article that showed pix of an 86 with a 350 in it? You could plainly see it was an engineering engine compartment. Had a bunch of measurement marks on the lines, hoses and other things. Kind of neat really. Now if it really was a 350, I'm not sure it said that was the car. Heck it could have been a preproduction 85 using a 84 with a 305 TPI.
Car Craft Magazine, who in the era was notorious for stories like these with pre-production mulled, might have been where you saw this. I have Car Craft from mid-80s forward, and could look in the archives some time.
I do recall their story of the 1988 1LE Camaro, and how to order one. Pretty cool how they spilled the beans.
Oh it exists... When GM finished with the car, it was sold to a reclusive investor from Sasquatchewan. People occasionally report seeing the car in remote areas, but it remains a mystery.
Yup, I remember the no AC but it still having the suitcase. I also remember another shot of I'd think the engineering engine compartment but I could have my wires crossed with another story too.
Lol if we really wanted to get something going I would like to see proof of one of the 1986 L69 Camaros. From what I have read there were 74 L69 1986 Camaros produced. If this is accurate or not I have no idea. All of the 1986 Z28's and IROC's I have seen were either LG4 or LB9 powered. Maybe they were used in the players challenge series that year since the LB9/5-speed combination wasn't available until 1987.
Not a Camaro but we did have a member a few years ago stating they had a 1986 Trans AM with the L69. They posted the VIN and it confirmed it was a 1986 with the L69.
Love reading those old articles. A couple years ago I bought a few (very) back issues on ebay of "new" car reviews & tests. The older I get the more nostalgic I become with that stuff.
I had a friend who had an 86 corvette convertible back in the very early 90's it had the aluminum headed 5.7. It was a very fast car for whatever reason. I remember thinking how cool it would be to drop one of those engines in an F body. I know the heads where more about weight & power compensation in the verts as I recall, but that car was really quick. Years later I owned an 87 corvette with the same engine, that one was not so quick. So, it was very likely gearing that helped that 86. Anyway, at that time those vette's where worth 18-20K ish iirc, so I wasn't too likely to find an engine to transplant. Great memories though!
01-25-2018, 04:02 PM
They're the super-cringey kind of non-car-enthusiast, BIG FISH story, told around the opened hood of your buddy's cool new car. Some blithering idiot desperate for some attention says something so monumentally stupid that it sends you into an epileptic episode. 
Well, That's what I was told 25 years ago by somebody who "knew" & the only reason I didn't believe it was because I already owned my 87 350 that had t-tops. So that made zero sense to me at the time. But I didn't know why they didn't exist. No google back then, just word of mouth, or info from the dealer who you hoped knew what they were talking about. Heck, I didn't learn until reading on this site about the weight thing.
