90 GTA Black

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

No one here needs to put a pipe down. I would like to put it somewhere else though. I know an 83 will never bring what a 68 will but it will bring a good price and would be worth the restoration. 82 z28 pace cars, a good L69camaro, trans am gta's, 89tta to name a few would be worth the restoration. Especially to us who really love the 3rd gens.As for cars made after 73, i guess you havent saw what a mint 80s cutlass 442 or a buick gnx are going for these days.

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

No one here needs to put a pipe down. I would like to put it somewhere else though. I know an 83 will never bring what a 68 will but it will bring a good price and would be worth the restoration. 82 z28 pace cars, a good L69camaro, trans am gta's, 89tta to name a few would be worth the restoration. Especially to us who really love the 3rd gens.Those of us who grew up with them and truly love em. As for cars made after 73, i guess you havent saw what a mint 80s cutlass 442 or a buick gnx are going for these days.[/quote]

Linson

personally, I can say that an LSx third gen would elicit more attention and excitement from me than a "correct" restored one.

on these boards, I've seen what seems like about an equal number of stock restorations and LSx-type resto-mods.

in person, I've never seen an LSx-swapped third gen.

Linson

[quote=dmccain;5751702]

this is the kinda **** i'm talking about. hostility. hostility towards a differing opinion. and the bitch of it is - sofakingdom is right. the price or value of a 68 Camaro has nil to do with the value of an 83 Camaro, and it is precisely for the reasons stated by sofakingdom - the difference in the cultural headspace occupied by a First Gen vs. a Third Gen. I wont even go so far as to state that my opinion, and that of sofakingdom, are fact (even though they are.) but my opinion (and I think his opinion) are based on our sensory/experiential perception. I have a hard time believing that anyone's sensory or experiential perception is what leads them to believe that spending thousands of dollars "restoring" a 1983 car to its original glory is worthwhile (financially speaking) because it will sell for thousands more than what you will have put into it. these boards are full of ten year old posts where people speculate that [Third Gen values will have increased exponentially] in ten years. well, ten years are up, and I don't know if the needle has really moved that much.

lets not start whipping our dicks out to see who loves 3rd Gens more. and don't let your love of Third Gens blind you. i'm not disagreeing with you on what is and isn't worth restoration, but I just want to put one thing in perspective. right now, low mileage TTAs rarely (almost never) sell for what they sold for new. typically they go for right about or under 2/3 of what they sold for new.

so if you truly love Third Gens, here's the good news: they are under-appreciated = under-valued = you can buy a nice one for not too much money.

the bad news: they are under-appreciated = under-valued = little interest outside of this cult-like following = relatively weak car specific aftermarket support both for restoration or modification. oh, and they don't command any thing close to life-changing money and it doesn't appear that they will any time soon.

15 grand, tops?
an 83 Camaro aint a GNX - in rarity nor performance nor desirability.

The_Wraith

^^
Other then the GN/GNX there is very little market for the G-body in terms of value. Monte Carlo SS is pretty much worthless and the high priced ones never sell, same goes for Hurts/442 Olds. I wont even mention the GP/EL Camino or Malibu. There is not much of a market for those cars. The people I see driving them are usually 50+ years old.

Anyone paying 15k for a 80s Hurst Olds is a nutbag or really likes the car. You can buy the early 70s 442 for that.

Thirdgen value has gone down in recent years. I think it peaked in the early to mid 2000s and is now flat lined. Parts alone that used to cost a fortune are easily attainable for half the cost or less then in the early 2000s.

You can also pick up some very nice complete thirdgens dirt cheap. They most likely will never be worth anything. There is the TTA but very few people outside the enthusiasts care about that car, and it doesn't have the street cred the GN has.

L69 Camaros aren't worth much. The GTA has to be by far one the cheapest thirdgens you can get, its doubtful they will be worth anything any time soon.

eseibel67

Cheer up, man. The sun will come up tomorrow.

The_Wraith

Discussing values of GM cars is supposed to be a downer?

Chuck84TA

I have a similar dillema. With my 1984 Recaro.

Here is what I plan to do-
1- 355 swap with Vortec heads
2- Rebuilt numbers matching qjet with some performance upgrades
3- dual snorkel air from an early third gen Z28
4- exterior will be restored completely to stock specs with the 1984 Recaro stripes.
5- Get 16" gold GTA wheels, keep the stock 15" wheels
6- install a WC T-5
7- Store the original L69 and T-5

Personally, I'd do the LT1 T56 but keep everything else stock...these cars look great with the factory spec exterior !

graysmoke

If everything is worthless.
Car values are on condition. You get what you pay for unless you get lucky. Noone but the seller and buyer can put values on +25 yr car, convertibles are desired more. My 3rd gen thrills me to drive. I also cant go anywhere without someone showing interest or asking if its for sale. I rarely see a 3rd gen on the road anymore and when I do they're tore to hell. The OP would like to restore or restomod. Its a matter of two things, taste and money. Either way its worth it only if he thrills from his ride and plans on keeping it.

Linson

[quote=The_Wraith;5751870]

The_Wraith

[QUOTE=Linson;5752381]Not sure what your area is like but they pop up around here all the time for 3k and under, usually running and needing a bit of tlc. High priced ones never seem to sell. Even cars I have seen sitting around and have gone in to inquire about were all priced pretty low. Why do you seem to think that the GTA is anything special?

I should also add that when I say the GTA is one of the cheapest thirdgens you can get is because when I am looking I don't take into account base model thirdgens.

yaj15

iTrader: (3)

To an extent the car is worth what someone will pay for it.

In the end, it's your car and you need to be happy with it.

I love my IROC but, I wish I would be able to find my dad's 1984 Z28. He scrapped it when the trans failed and had it hauled off to the junk yard. It had most of the all the options that year.

Wouldn't be worth much (especially compared to my IROC with the options and conditions it's in) but to me it would mean a lot. That's where my interest in thirdgens started. My dads car would have needed a full restoration.

The L69 motors are special for people that like thirdgens because that was the first sign that some factory performance was back. It served as the base for the LB9 and L98 motors that would come down the road later. Clean early ('82-'84) thirgens are getting harder to find. Most of them are either complete basket cases or in really good condition. There isn't a lot of in between room for those cars anymore.

That being said, if your goal is bang for the buck power you will have an easier time accomplishing those goals with a 350 small block or larger motor than compared to the 305. Depends on what your goals are. Build your car the way you want so that it matches your goals and you will be happy with the results.

Some people want a 100% stock low mile original car. Other people want a car that is fully modified to their specs. Other people fall in between those extreme ends of the spectrum. Figure out what you want to do and build your car to those aspirations.

The_Wraith

I say fix your 83Z, anything within reason could be brought back to stock even if you choose to mod.

I think if anything 82-84 Thirdgens will become more desirable. They are getting scarce and when you do see one that looks factory you really learn to appreciate them.

Linson

[quote=The_Wraith;5752387]okay, but when looking at just the "good regular ones" then (IROC, Z28, Formula, Trans Am, GTA) I think you would find that the GTAs are the most highly optioned 3rd Gens, were the most expensive to purchase when new, and typically command a higher price than a similar condition Formula or Trans Am - and probably more than a Camaro too depending on region and whats in fashion. I think that's common knowledge on these boards.

it just is what it is. personally, I prefer Formulas.

Linson

[quote=The_Wraith;5752444]

I tend to disagree. and i'm not trying to start an argument or anything, so please don't take it as such.

but to me (and I don't think i'm alone) there is something kinda "off" about those years (82-84).

for one thing, I don't think they quite had the body/looks down yet. I think they got it right with the front fascia change in 85, ground effects for Camaros, wrap around spoiler for Firebirds, and bigger wheels/wider tires for both. 85-92 cars appear lower, wider, and more aggressive = look faster when standing still.

another thing is that not only was engine output very low during those years, but the carburetors and snorkel air cleaner tubes etc., just don't match the body of the car. the sleek, futuristic body of the Third Gen almost requires the "new" fuel injection induction system. there is something disappointing to me about popping the hood on such a futuristic looking car and seeing something that looks exactly like something under the hood of any pedestrian car from 1977.

are they [82-84s] getting rare. heck yeah. will they become desirable. I don't know, I could only speculate. my personal feeling is that they do not capture the Third Gen vibe the way the later model years do. I would speculate that this will keep them comparatively less desirable. but remember, that's just my opinion. I don't profess to have the inside track on where any of this stuff is going. I just like third gens (particularly 87-92s.)

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

Had an 82 z28 pace car. Thought it was pretty stylish. More stylish than my 89 formula especially before i ditched the ugly nose and bumper for the TA trim. The wrap around spoiler was the best improvement 3rd gen trans ams made for looks in my opinion.

TxTtopZ

lol
And they WILL too! Not to hi-jack the thread, but in my 85 Z28 I had my *** kicked by all sorts of "people carriers" - I really hated that, good thing it's totally fixable.


My vote, if funds are low would be a period correct resto-mod. Since the car is old enough, you shouldnt have to worry about emissions too much. Just safety. Nice carbed 383 or 355 will beat most other cars out there.

If you have the cash, do the LSX swap.

Personally, my car is getting restored because I want to keep this one around. Powertrain is just a non issue at the moment. After the car is "immortalized" - so to speak, and will hopefully last until I kick the bucket - I will worry about the power needs. I just don't see any sense in LSX money blowing into a car that needs help. Just my .02 - Rob

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Funny you say that....and how many on this board own 82-84 Z28's that now look exactly like 91-92 Z28's.....

Like our new COTM editor, they don't care fore the ground FX those years..others don't care for any carbed engines. Yet others don't care for having any Gen1 engine in any Thirdgen....you need to swap in a LSX..because everyone knows a stock LS is faster than any gen 1 small block, even if it's modified....

Meanwhile, I'm watching a Mecum auto auction on TV, and a beautiful low mileage IROC with a 305 just sold for 4700 bucks. Car was pristine. Was it a "concours" or "frame-off" restoration...well... no...

But if it was, it might have sold for like...5K....maybe 6K!!!

I have no real point in this post...do what you want with it. To hell with what others think.

The_Wraith

GTA= Badges and seats. Nothing special. They didn't even put wonderbars on them. An IROC I would consider the top contender for options and resale.


Well the looks part is personal preference. After 84 GM really started to cost cut on the rest of the production run in certain areas. Not to mention they went from functional hoods to non-functional.

Bigger wheels and wider tires started in 1984.

You need to do some more reading on thirdgen history. The L69 was faster then the LB9.


You do realize that these cars were designed in the mid 70s at the earliest right? You also realize "fuel injection induction system" or FI was around for quite some time before the thirdgens came around? and also that Fuel injection was offered on thirdgens from day one?

The "futuristic body" of the thirdgen demands Fuel injection based on appearance? That is an interesting point of view.


Not many cars had dual snorkel air cleaners and functional cowl hoods in 1977.

I have had a wide variety of thirdgens right till 1992. I have gotten more compliments on my 1984 t/a then any of them. I have had guys talking to me in dead traffic asking if the cars decals are factory,etc. Or how you don't see these around at all.

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

Certainly didnt see CFI in 1977

okfoz

IIRC The first cars to have Port FI was the Nissan (Datsun) 280Z in 1976, and the Cadillac Eldorado had it as an option...

Another neat factoid, the first car to offer an Airbag? 1973 Caprice, I think some of the Cadillacs also had it as an option... looked at a 76 Eldo Convertible with the FI AND the Airbag years ago...

The problem I see the early 3rd gens will have to overcome is the CFI, called the cease fire for a reason, it was problematic for 1982, I am not sure how much they got figured out by 1983, but it was dropped for 1984. (1984 being the ONLY year for the 3rd gen V8 not to offer any FI). As the generation passed, cars definitely got faster and faster, the climax was the 1989 TTA or the 91/92 Firehawk... Build quality I think improved over the generation as well...

As far as values... only time will tell, I will say that historically performance dictates value for the most part. There are always outliers, but take a 1st gen, no matter what it is, a FACTORY higher performance sibling will always fetch more than a lower performance model.

Add to the stigma that from 1982-1985 they offered a 4 cyl, and that really makes people cringe... they say it was available in 1986, but I have never seen any and the production figures do not show any being produced.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Sure...the iron duke 4 bangers. Might made you cringe, but there's actually a following for those. I cringe about the same with the 2.8 and 3.1's personally. All three I wouldn't consider a performance engine. As far as CFI...good idea, but whoever decided to make the intake so restrictive is the biggest issue. Plus, electronic anything was pretty prehistoric compared to today's stuff. Corvettes got the CFI treatment too.

305's in general were a letdown too. I'm sure you've heard them called "GM corporate 305 engine"...But a lot were sold....I've seen tons of V6 RS models in the boneyard, and there's still quite a few on the street.

Build quality got better over the years? Not from my point of view. Quality stayed the same....technology got a lot better.

It wasn't that GM and others couldn't make great power back then...they just couldn't make power AND pass overly strict emission standards for the time. Not to mention gas prices shot up....the Iron Duke looked a lot better back then.

Yes, Performance got better, I can tell you that. But I guess the king of Thirdgen performance from the factory is the 350 TPI....the best truck engine that was never put into a truck. Still dismal compared to today's standards....

My wife's 2013 KIA Optima with a tiny 1.8 liter and a tiny turbo cranks out 276 HP.....looks like a toy engine, but hauls rather nicely! That's 85 more HP than the 305HO cranked out in '83 BTW...and it's in a smaller car.

New CAFE standards are kicking in next year though...I wouldn't doubt the days are numbered for this recent outburst of high HP Supercharged 500+ HP v8 engines....Ford has already started the trend...Ecoboost V6....

Today's "Iron Duke" days are around the corner....but at least we have the technology to make a lot more power with these smaller engines...

As far as appearance...it's all opinion. They all look better than any 4th gen to me...but just IMO...

EDIT: Also IMO, the 82-84 Camaros were the real vision for what they are supposed to be....they just put lipstick on everything else (big spoilers, bigger ground FX etc) in the later years was added just to make it more appealing to the masses.

Linson

[quote=The_Wraith;5752514]

.

special? like I said, I prefer a Formula. but the GTAs were relatively heavy because they were highly optioned. like you, I would prefer an IROC-Z over a GTA, but I don't think that i'm incorrect when I say the GTAs were typically the most highly optioned.

what had 16-inch wheels and 245s in 1984?

I don't think that's correct - somebody feel free to interject here - but if i'm not mistaken, we're talking about a 190 hp / 240-ish tq L69 vs. 220-ish hp / 300 tq LB9. if what you're saying is that despite lower engine output, the L69 equipped cars were faster, I don't think that is correct either, but again if you have some reference or if someone else cares to weigh in - I get **** wrong all the time.

allow me to illustrate my point. below are a coupe images of L69 engines in what appear to be 3rd Gen F-Bodies.

compared to the engine compartment of a pedestrian vehicle from 1977 (below) there doesn't appear to be much difference.


I would also point out that Crossfire Injection was pretty conventional in its appearance at the time.


maybe it is an "odd" point of view, but I just feel that the TPI or some other electronic fuel injection seems more "right" on a 3rd Gen.

I do not hate 82-84s. I just prefer the later models, and am trying my best to explain why without causing an uproar.

The_Wraith

[quote=Linson;5752711]Again the GTA is badges and seats. No more highly optioned then the standard T/A. With base firebird fenders I might add..



"984 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am now available with the same ground effects as were used on the previous years pace car replica. Grill inserts in front fascia replaced with solid pieces. New 20 slot 15" aluminum wheels also available. For the 15th anniversary of the Trans Am, the 1984 Pontiac Firebird was released in another special limited edition Trans Am. Using the same body as the '83 Pontiac Firebird pace car replicas, but with new 16" 20 slot convex aluminum wheels with Goodyear P245/50VR16 unidirectional tires. The new wheel/tire combo was very similar to the current Corvette's P255/50ZR16 arrangement. This was the first appearance of 16" wheels on a third generation f-body. The 1500 15th Anniversary Trans Ams also included upgraded WS6 suspension with new 25mm rear sway bar vs the normal WS6's 23mm bar. The other features on the 1984 Pontiac Firebird included gray multitone and white leather Recaro interior, steering wheel, shifter, and parking brake handle, white striped taillights, white wheels, special blue stripes and blue hood decal, 4 wheel disc brakes, and ttops. The '84 Firebird that were available V8 engines were the LG4 and L69.
The '84 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am drag coefficiant is .32 but capable of .29 with standard Aero wheels over the High-Tech turbo aluminums. At the time it was the most aerodynamic car GM ever produced."



As another member posted TPI should have been a truck engine. To answer your question, one example can be found by this video




Interesting point. However those 1977 engines are much different. Lack of electric cooling fans or computer controlled carburator for example. Your idea is really interesting and the only one I have ever read that compared the body of the car to what the engine should look like.

However should these engine bays look like this? Carbs were mostly the norm till 1987 in RWD cars.

1992



Caprice tbi


Vortec? Looks a little old to be in a truck in the late 90s no?




Appearance means nothing. The TPI was a nice looking motor, but is a flawed system. A good truck engine, for its gobs of low end torque. Hitting a brick wall at upper RPMs isn't much fun in a sports car.

Again a very interesting point of view.

visitor

No, reliability can be quantified with charts and graphs, but better looking is a totally subjective opinion. One that I happen to agree with. Old cars (about 1980 and below) have literally no appeal to me. I'd be perfectly happy to see them crushed and made into ashtrays.

Im not saying anyone should agree with me, but it is a valid point... looks are a matter of taste. As for people arguing about values? No one here is really qualified to speak on this (please, if there are ANY degreed statisticians on this board, correct me). All we laymen can do is notice trends. And it is a fact the trend shows values of these cars gradually increasing for good examples.

That said, id ls it. But id build the car more for my enjoyment than for what it will or won't be worth.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

visitor

Do you have any hard, actual data to back this up? The market has actually gone UP in recent years, albeit slightly.

Ill whole heartedly agree with you that anyone who thinks they are sitting on a gold mine is foolish, but to say they're decreasing in value seems incorrect.

(Feel free to check your specific model years value on hagerty.com.)

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Not sure I'd use Hagerty as a source to gage any cars value. You don't even need to get your car appraised there to get it insured. I plan to get my car insured there for 20k....not because my '83 would cost near that much to replace, but because of all the aftermarket parts...

Some venue like Mecum or Barrett Jackson might be a better way to see the actual values of a particular car....after all, they're only worth what people will pay for them.

I was just watching a repeat show from last year (Mecum) just today actually....and as people were bidding on that pristine 85 IROC that sold for 4700, they felt then that Thirdgens were a good buy right now....at the bottom of the value scale.

So they felt their value will begin to go up....how much is anyone's guess. IMO, it'll be another 7-10 years before they start demanding any real money...again, anyone's guess.

kmcn47

i love the way my ugly l69 looks. yeah i have the snorkels just don't have em on

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

In the 1970s, 55-57 Chevys were already gold mines. Less than 20 years. (American Graffiti came out in what, 1975 or so?)

In the early 80s, 60s muscle cars in anything like decent condition, were already selling for what than they did new. ($5000 type numbers) 15-20 years.

In 2014, 80s F bodies (and Mustangs, Vettes, and EVERYTHING ELSE with extremely limited exceptions) in relatively decent condition (no I'm not talking about concours or Barrett-Jackson, just, nice clean old cars you wouldn't be embarrassed to drive) are selling for around 25% of their original price. 30 years.

Anybody notice anything different here?

How long are you people that have the fantasy about these cars "someday" increasing in value, willing to wait, before reality sets in? This is kind of like those religious cults that say the end of the world is on such-and-such a date; date comes and goes, world doesn't end; guru sets a new date; date comes and goes again; guru makes a few excuses, re-casts the yarrow stalks or whatever, makes a new prediction, still doesn't happen; how long does it take before the faithful lose their delusion?

In the 50s & 60s, cars symbolized freedom, the booming middle class, good times, mobility, open space, youth, etc. etc. etc. That world changed FOREVER on Oct 6 1973, the day the Arabs attacked Israel and got their butts whipped; in retaliation, they made damn sure everybody that was a friend of Israel would pay dearly for that friendship. By the beginning of 1974, a car was no longer a symbol of freedom; it was an albatross. Gasoline was RATIONED. You younger people WHO WEREN'T THERE have no idea how much of a shock that was. We were NOT ALLOWED to buy gas except on certain cays of the week, according to our license plate number (odd/even etc.). Gas stations ran out of gas - ALL OF THEM. The speed limit was reduced to 55 mph nationwide. All of a sudden, people who depended on their car to get to work, couldn't. People who wanted to cruise the open road, couldn't. A car wasn't "freedom" any more; it was a LIABILITY. It was a shock to the whole car psyche that turned it inside-out.

Note that I am NOT saying that I don't like these cars, that they "aren't as good", NOTHING OF THE KIND; only, that their "value" IS NOT going to behave like their predecessors. It really doesn't matter which particular model you want to talk about. It's not about whether they have EFI or not. It's not about early, late, build quality, what the engine looks like, or ANYTHING ELSE related to THE CAR ITSELF. It's all about the fact that these cars simply are not part of the American nostalgia for "the good old days" of cars. They're just NOT. The "good old days" had already LONG SINCE DIED by the time these cars appeared.

Their "value", especially to people like us, is THE EXACT OPPOSITE of that. Which is, they're cheeeeep, inexpensive, don't cost a lot, and you don't have to pay much to get one. So we can go out and buy em all day long and do whatever we want with em. Their "value" therefore is that we can enjoy them any way we want: race cars, street cars, lawn ornaments, whatever. We can even HALLUCINATE about their "value" increasing "someday". Sure, hallucinations can be fun; but as the basis for financial decisions, they're not real reliable. And as far as expecting the rest of the world to "someday" join that hallucination, is even LESS reliable.

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

"Thanks for the lecture. You cast a dark cloud"

The_Wraith

The only other car guy I have met that said that about old muscle cars was a guy in his late fifties/early 60s. He was a old hippie who hated anything that reminded him of the past, he even used to get all pissed off if someone put classic rock on in the shop.

So now you need a university degree to notice the average value of cars on the market?. These cars have not increased in value in most cases. Go look at the early 00's vs the last 6 years. Where is your data that shows these cars have gradually gone up in value?



I can see with my own two eyes what the prices have been on the classified ads over the years. I don't need graphs and "experts" with degrees on automotive values to tell me anything.

So hagerty is the go to place to determine the market?

Linson

I found it to be both entertaining and 100% accurate.

you say he casts a dark cloud, i say that he is speaking reality, and i say make the best of it. if you like 3rd Gens, you wont have to sacrifice your retirement to get a nice one - and that's a good thing...if you like 3rd Gens. if you're more into money and you see your 3rd Gen as an investment, there's nothing i can honestly tell you that isn't going to cast a dark cloud.

and @ sofakingdom, just for the record, when I spoke on body styles and engine types, I was not theorizing on values, I was just stating my personal preferences. however, i will say that in my mind, Third Gens represent the first "high-tech muscle cars." that is the vibe that they should embody. and to my sensibilities (just speaking for myself here) the taller & narrower, less aggressive appearing, carbureted, sometimes brown painted earlier models fail to capture that vibe. in other words, (for me) the body style changed but the vibe didn't - until around '85.

Linson

[quote=The_Wraith;5752765]

again, i'm pretty sure its common knowledge on these boards that GTAs are typically the most heavily optioned Third Gens, were the most expensive (regular types) to buy new, and usually command a little bit more to buy used - all things being equal. i was simply refuting your statement that they were 'about the cheapest Third Gens you could buy', because in fact the opposite is true as (i believe) is common knowledge. i'm not arguing against what you have experienced, i'm just pointing out that what i'm saying is (i think) accepted common knowledge.

well i asked a question ("what had 16's and 245s in '84?) and you gave me a specific answer, and it was something that i did not know. HOWEVER, your answer being somewhat anecdotal, does not negate my point because my point is dealing with the big picture. and the big picture is that 82-84's look the way i say they do compared to 85-92's - meaning even though there was a special edition Firebird in 84 with 16" wheels, for the most part 82-84's had 15x7s. i'm sure some of them probably had 14's.

Quote:

sorry. this video wont play on my phone, and i cannot access YouTube at work. what happened? did the L69 (Camaro?) win? was the TPI car an LB9? again, the LB9 has a lot more HP and TQ than an L69. assuming both cars are equipped with a manual transmission, then the only advantage i can see for the L69 equipped car is possibly a higher rear gear ratio?

if i'm honest, that statement makes it appear that your kinda stretching it in order to not see my point. again, i'm talking BIG PICTURE. the photo examples that i posted up don't lie. its a little disingenuous to say that the two are "much different" when clearly they are generally the same.

actually, on an older car (like my '67 Firebird) i can go either way - big blocks and carbs or LS and fly by wire throttle. but i would never want to go from newer technology to old-school technology on a newer car.

not the same thing. these examples do not represent the new "high-tech muscle car" and therefore i do not feel one way or the other about what i find under the hood.

i agree. that is why i usually am not in favor of keeping a Third Gen "stock."

Linson

100% agree.

i hate when people demand data, graphs, and expert analysis on things that are determined on a case by case basis and through observation - and there are no experts in lab coats on such matters.

i would love for my TTA to be worth the $45,000 or so that it is valued at on the Hagerty Insurance site. i tell you what. i'm feeling generous - and this is a one time offer for TGO members ONLY: i'll knock $10,000 off of that right now. any takers?

The_Wraith

There is nothing hi-tech about a thirdgen. The thirdgen is also not a muscle car. An example of a "High-Tech" 80s car would be a Dodge Daytona and even a C4 vette. The berlinetta/T/A digital dash is about as "High-Tech" as a thirdgen gets.

Taller and narrower? .Carburators were offered until 1987 in these cars. Brown painted models would be a rarity. I see more. Blue, White, Red, Grey and Black then anything in those years.





Yet you prefer the formula with the power bulge hood,no skirts and black bumper pads? The car that resembles 82-84 the most?

Linson

[quote=The_Wraith;5753026]

not true. compared to everything that came before it, its very appearance is high tech, which I believe was the intention of the designers. and compared to everything that came before it, TPI was high-tech. and in its time, (and maybe even still today) it "looked" high-tech.

read it again. taller and narrower appearing. I said taller and narrower appearing. because of the taller profile, narrower tires the 82-84s appear to be taller and narrower than the later model IROCS, TAs, and Formulas.

but TPI wasn't offered until '85. I wouldn't buy a carbureted 3rd gen whether it was an 82 or an 87.

actually, I don't think that brown ones were all that rare. I've seen a bunch. my point of course being that a brown, early 80's third gen (for me) carries with it somewhat of a 70's car vibe.

correct. I like the wide, low, aggressive looks of the Formula, and the hood looks very sleek with the Formula's body lines. when parked next to my TTA, my Formula appears somewhat lower and wider because the lack of ground effects. the ground effects on a TTA or any Trans Am, make the car look a little taller, and thus narrower because ground effects add thickness (tallness) to the body.

visitor

I'm not arguing hagertys values to be correct (although they DO seem to be in the ballpark for my particular car year), I'm arguing that their trend research is accurate. Third gens ARE at the bottom of the value scale.. but they're increasing, not decreasing. I'm not sure that a third gen will ever be worth the money a 60s muscle car is (I'm not qualified to even guess at that).

visitor

If you'd like to classify me as "not a car guy" because I don't care about old ugly cars, feel free.

You DO need a degree to be able to talk with any authority on the subject of values and trends. Anything less and you're nothing more than a casual observer with no worthwhile input on the matter.

As I said, to see my data backing up my claim that the value is gradually increasing, look at hagarty value trend data (i would be happy to screen **** it if you cannot figure it out). You can reject its validity all you'd like, however, I can provide quantifiable evidence of my side of the discussion, and you, seemingly, cannot.

As to your sad attempts at sarcasm and veiled insults, I've no interest in seeing this degrade into a less than useful discussion, so forgive me if I don't choose to make similar comments.

visitor

There actually ARE experts in graphs, charts, data, etc. They are called statisticians... although I bet they don't wear lab coats. As for hagarty.. im not sure why people cannot understand that their posted values have nothing to do with value trends. example: if they add 10k onto the value at both ends, the graph is still true, as its measuring growth or decline, not hard numbers.

Just because you "hate it", doesn't make you any less wrong, or Ill informed.

Fyi: a case by case basis doesn't work when everyone else (and you're even attempting to) is discussing overall trends.. in this case, lumping the third gens into a whole, vs.. generic 60s classic car.

The_Wraith

Interestingly enough no other thirdgens ever outsold the 82-84 models.

Camaro:

1982 189,747
1983 154,831
1984 261,591

Firebird:

1982 116,364
1983 74,884
1984 128,304

If you say your not a car guy I will take your word for it.

Will this job pay well? Who can I go to for advice on the thirdgen market? Who is qualified to make the call on what one should pay for these cars? Hagerty? Anyone else?


Where are they getting the info from?

I am not sure why you feel insulted.

visitor

Your silly attempt at twisting my words would work better if it made any sense. Someone with the reading comprehension of a third grade level would understand the difference between "if you call me" and "im not". If you don't have that level of comprehension.. well that's on you.

As for a statisticians job, yes, it pays fairly well, with the median income as of 2013 being 91,000 (actually also rated as "one of the 10 best jobs to have" fwiw). This would, coincidentally, be who you would want to consult on average third gen value trends, or any other issue.. these are the people who do market analysis.


Haragrty gets their information from.. wait for it...... a market analysis. Guess who does that kinda work (hint: see above).

If I was wanting to purchase a third gen, I would probably consult one, if not many of the various valuation books/sites/etc. Out there. I may also look into a... value trend graph, so see if this is a good time to purchase (if you're buying for collectable value.. if you're modding, buy a cheap beater and start from scratch.

Wanna take a WILD guess what kind of people kbb, nada, etc. use to get their data analyzed?

dmccain

iTrader: (2)

Doubt a ton of $ is out ther to be made on 3rd gens. I do think they are worth restoring to original when it is feasable. Do i like mods? Sure, ive modified 4 out of 5 ive had. Its sometimes just too easy to drop a nice 350 in place of a 305. In my humble opiniopn though the L69/5spd package is one of the great ones. I would be happy with its stock configuration.

The_Wraith

My post was mainly sarcasm. I disagree with your theory on the value of these cars. I am not out to insult or get personal about it. Other then a bit of sarcasm of coarse.

I don't need to go to books or advisers to see what these cars sell for. I have been around these cars most of my life. I have pretty much always owned one since I started driving. I am always looking for parts and at Thirdgens for sale in general. Most people here know exactly what these cars are worth and the market for them. Most defiantly don't need a market analysis to get a good idea of what these cars have been going for.


I agree.

TxTtopZ

I agree there. We may just have to wait until you old folks kick the bucket so we can raise the price! To me the 80's WERE the good old days. I got just as much sentiment in my car as your generation did. Many memories and feelings. If anything, the generation then who deemed Fuel Injection to be bad for performance dirtied the water for modern performance. As posted in the very video above the 2 guys point at the carburetors for being a better source of HP. Car guys (and even most Technicians) had no idea how semi-conductor technology worked and was very reluctant to change. Not knowing air fuel ratios etc. could be tailored to the max. As I recall, the industry TRIED to jump start performance by MATCHING the performance of the cars from the "Hey Day" - with better gas mileage at the same time! It's only when modified they realized there were some tough hurdles to overcome with EFI and emissions things went sour. You can't reprogram an ECU with an 80's calculator watch! So there went that.

Let's say we conspired, wrote letters, formed an organization and actually controlled the price of parts and thus, the Third gen. (This is illegal by the way) - Would we up the price? Hell no. IMO it would only hurt the car because no one wants to pay that.

okfoz

First, I do not have any problems with the early third gens either... Its more of less observations on my behalf. I prefer the middle years 85-90 personally, but that is me.
As time went on, the fit and finish of the cars did improve. The doors lined up better, the early hatches did not line up with the rear fenders in the rear and often would extend 1/4" past the rear quarters. The doors did not line up as well with the front fenders. The later years did improve... Granted the squeeks and rattles of a 100K car did not diminish much until 1992 when they added some glues, and the T-tops were improved mid year 1991.

Actually arguably the fastest production cars up until very recently were from the 1980's Let me show you a GNX, TTA or Firehawk. Even still a 91-92 Firehawk could compete with a 2010 Corvette, It may not win, but the numbers are close...

Has anyone ever told you that KIA means "Killed In Action?"

Agreed

okfoz

Linson,
The 1984 Trans AM 15th Anniversary came with the 16" wheels...

Linson

^I know that. the Wraith enlightened me. but the big picture remains the same.