BlackenedBird

iTrader: (5)

I think only the first 6 months or so worth of USA GTAs got them in 1987. But even after that, the exports were still getting them. Especially in the countries where parking was very limited & folding mirrors were required on all cars.

DD9TransAmGTA

iTrader: (1)

the inner door plastic on my GTA says OCT 86 and it has paddles. I love the folding mirrors i found out they did that because i hit my arm on it and it moved. I was confused for a second. They shouldn't of discontinued them they look great on the car, but thats my opinion.

gsmarcano

how nice is that thing!

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

The TTA 'vert is cool, but since it was converted by ASC later on, IMO it takes away from it value compared to if it had been a factory planned 'vert from day 1; in other words, there was nothing stopping anyone else from doing the same, it's just that nobody did.

Still cool though, if brown and gold are your thing.

88FormulaKiller

iTrader: (8)

thats a pretty ignorant statement Drew, i can agree that most 305's of the era were doggish but in the ending years of the third gens, the 305tpi/T5's were putting out only 15hp less than a GTA with a 5.7(also, 5.7's came with 3.23 rears and the T5 had 3.42, makes up alittle more slack). I dont consider anyone to be a car "enthusiast" if all they care about is what ### CI my engine is... SO i guess ILL be laughing next year when my little 325 CI engine blows away a few mild to medium built LS1's because ill forget to tell the car "enthusiast" about the turbos attached to the little 325.....

IMissMy86TA

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

Also, to continue the petty bickering, Drew's right--the stigma of how crappy the 305 is in the car world is painful. It's so painful I tell people my car has a 5.0 in it, and hope they know the legend of the 5.0 but don't realize it was Ford's 5.0 that the legend was built around. Yeah, I do get tired of know-nothings ******* on my automatic because they assume that in 10000% of cases "sticks are faster hur hurr" without knowing anything at all about the tranny gear ratios between a particular model's auto/manual offerings, etc., but I'd rather deal with that than people ragging on my 305.

But he is right. Regardless of how close the 305 was to the 350, it still at the end of the day is a basic transportation engine that was never designed for performance, and unfortunately it's also the reason everyone thinks back so fondly on Foxbodies and so poorly on F-bodies.

And while *some* people may have been hell-bent on a T5 and ordered down to a 305 to get one, I'd be willing to bet that more often than not, it came down to cost. A 305 car would be cheaper than a 350 car, and back then a manual would've been cheaper than an automatic so I think a lot of people settled happily, figuring, "Well, I can't afford a 350, but I CAN get into a 305 with a cheaper 5-speed and call it a pretty good compromise."

I rack my brain trying to decide if it's a 350 '90 IROC I'd want (no T-tops available), or a '90 IROC T5 'vert that I'd want. What I do know though, is that I'd never regret the 350 car, but even I have a hard time stomaching paying out upwards of $20k for a low-mileage 305 'vert, which is about what the few '90s I've seen go for. It would also have to be red with a black gut, limiting my options further. I guess ultimately if I'm adding to the one I have, I'd go with the hardtop car, but if I was replacing my current ride if it got totaled or whatever, I'd probably have a much harder time choosing, and lean towards the 'vert.

Either way, a 305 is a crappy performance motor, because it isn't nor ever was one.

88FormulaKiller

iTrader: (8)

actually the V6 was the basic transportation engine. and if you missed my response, a 1992 305 TPI / T5 w/3.42's is going to be very close to the performace of a 5.7 TPI with 3.23's. Maybe your basing your opinion off of that L03 in your car, which is Not a performance V8 without quite a bit of mods.

And OP, my answer to your thread, the 92 Firehawk Vert for both, to me atleast. sorry, got sidetracked again by "Performance".

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

No, I'm basing it off the later LB9 that could hang with a 350, not my LO3 that can't make room for its own shadow.

That's besides the point though, and not what me nor Drew were getting at; I could build my 305 and put a blower on it and make 400 hp, doesn't absolve it of being a crappy engine with a stigma that will forever haunt it. I could run down 5.0 Mustangs till I was blue in the face with a blown 305 and I'd still get laughed at for driving a 305.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

You simply do not know what you are talking about....

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

Why would GM build a motor with the exact same 3.48" stroke as a 350, but put a puny bore in it, something that can not ever be worked around? Because it was a basic transportation engine that was not designed to ever have much potential, but was designed to make assembly life and R&D life as easy as possible in terms of interchangeability.

Plain and simple, a 305 is a permanently maimed 350, more or less. The 350 is the performance motor, the 305 is not. The small bore is the reason.

marokid

iTrader: (1)

get off the 305 topic and back to the original post!

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

First of all, nobody is questioning the intent of General Motors, I am simply questioning your understanding of how an engine works. You need to stop comparing the 305 with the 350, because I'll then compare your 350 engine with a 454. They are two different animals, and the question here is can the 305 be a "performer". In any event, by maximizing the amount of air that the 305 is able to take in during it's stroke, and this is accomplished either by a larger intake valve like a 2.02", but with essentially lower static compression so the valve won't hit the deck of the block, w/emphasis on "sweep volume", or dynamic compression. Or, with a 1.94" intake valve and higher static compression, with the emphasis then being focused on the velocity, or speed, of the incoming air....

How could you possibly imply that three hundred and five cubic inches is a limitation in power, regardless of the bore size? We want quench to be sporadic, and the bore size itself is meaningless in terms of usable air that that engine is burning during it's cycle. The 305 will take in as much air as you can supply to it, believe me, I've given them 15-psi and it will take in a lot more, and horsepower is based on not only that, but how much fuel your supplying that air, not to mention the the timing of it. This, in conjunction with vehicle weight, stall (if auto), and rear gears will dictate your performance. By the way, have you ever even looked at a stock GM Acceleration Enrichment table? Do you have any idea how much was left on the table, even with the peanut cam....?

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

EDIT: Nothing you've said has any relevance to my point, really. I'm an engineer and I've built engines myself. If you can get 400 HP out of your turbo L69, cool. Doesn't change anything I said, because I never said you couldn't, quite the opposite in fact. The 305 was not designed as a performance engine, and garners almost no respect in the auto community in terms of performance.

Anyway, back on topic.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Not quite....

.... and? If you really are an engineer you should know that horsepower is based on air, fuel and spark, and that is ALL that it is based on. You simply don't look at an inscription on an engine block that happens to say 305 then immediately assume that it isn't a performer simply because you yourself haven't known anyone else, let alone GM, to make any real power with it. What matters is how much air is being squeezed into the combustion chambers, and supplying the right amount of fuel at the given acceleration rate, period. Everything else your saying is meaningless because horsepower is just that, air, fuel and spark. Perhaps GM didn't even bother with the 305's potential because they were basing their focus a little more towards <cough> the corvette <cough>, and a 305 that runs right along with it wouldn't help their profit margin whatsoever. I've ran 11.5 with a 305 at 8 pounds of boost, and I'm planning on running in the nines with a 30 over 305 at just under 30 pounds of boost, so how does;

.... have any real relevance with the words of an alleged engineer?

chazman

iTrader: (4)

I disagree.

The 305 was to be GM's basic passenger car V8 displacement, thanks to CAFE and emission requirements of the early '80s. It was even planned for the Corvette. The "Corvette mafia" had enough political pull to retain the 350 for itself however. Keep in mind that both CFI and TPI were developed around a 305 displacement. Also keep in mind that lower-po V8s were available at the time, namely 262 and 267 versions. So in some respects, the LG4 was a step up V8 option. ****, it even came with a 4 bbl carb. When fitted with higher compression, freer flowing exhaust, bigger cam, etc., (ie, L-69, big cam LB9) the 305 was a very respectable performer for it's day.

Anyway, I'm one of those folks who think a stick shift is important. When people check out my IROC, the first thing they'll usually say is "wow, it's a stick!". Personally, I don't really care that a very good running 5.7/N10/3.27 is as fast or possibly even a tenth or two faster than my LB9/T5/3.45 car. I think I've got the more fun combo.

In modern terms however, none of our relatively stock 3rd gens can be considered street terrors. The fastest ones might beat a modern Camry or Accord, the slower ones not even close. They are older cars and should be appreciated and enjoyed for what they are.

Jason E

Well put...I 100% agree. I reminded myself of the age of the car I was driving when my 86 got smoked by a new Escalade

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Bingo. But the truth of the matter is that any engine can be made to perform, just give it what it wants. Hell, look at the naturally aspirated Stage II Buick V6, for instance....;


"Good things come in small packages. Compared to a V8, a Buick V6 is rather diminutive, except when it comes to power. Jim Ruggles' Grand National Sportsman engines produce 530+ horsepower from 274 cubic inches. Even without a hand-held calculator, that figures out to 1.94 horsepower per cubic inch, an impressive figure for any engine on one four-barrel carburetor and gasoline"....

Drew

iTrader: (58)

So many people missing the point, and straying from the original topic. Reading comprehension is a skill, some in this thread need to develop it.

The OP asked what is the rarest of the rare thirdgen, and what is the most valuable. That part at least has been answered. The question was then raised "what makes a car rare/valuable". In the course of that topic, the 305 vs 350 topic came up. The point isn't that the 305 is so much slower then the 350, it's that many people hold the 305 in very low regard, which hurts it's value more then the T5 and HP ratings could ever help it.

I know the capabilities of the LB9 5spd, but when you get off of this forum no one else does. To most people it's just another 305, L69, LG4, LB9, L03, it's all just a 305 to them. Seriously, get out more, go talk to car enthusiasts, and try talking up your 305, they will laugh in your face. Go ahead and preach the word of the mighty high output 305 if you want. My money is they still won't care. You don't need to convince me the 305 is really close to the 350, you have to convince the world that the exception makes up for the multitude of SLOW, SLUGGISH, 305s. So stop bugging me about this, the debate isn't about the 305's capabilities, it's about the general conception toward the 305.

Get over it, people will always think your 305 is gay, because it's a 305. Period.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

BINGO! If you think the 305 is bad you should look at an LC2. Smaller bore, the stock heads flow 150 cfm. Fully ported are only 190! Valves are smaller than a stock 305. No damper! weak main caps, weak oiling system, cast crank, cast pistons, cast rods. I make close to 650 horsepower with mine. A LB9 long block looks like a formula 1 engine compared to an LC2 long block. If you can't make big power with a 305 or a 307 (307 is actually slightly better because of the larger bore) then you don't know what you are doing.

IMHO a T5 /305 thirdgen is far more desirable for all but pure drag racing use.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

LOL Shut up and get back in the garage.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Listen, I've got news for you. Most people who are not neck deep in the 3rd gen culture think ALL of our powerplants are "gay", B2L NOT excepted. These cars are nearly 3 decades old. Except for us, no one really cares or knows the difference in what we have under the hood.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Wow, that's funny... Every time I drive my Formula and someone asks about it, they always say "305?" with this disgusted scowl on their face. When I tell them "it's a 350" suddenly they get wide eyed and doubtful. It's almost the exact opposite of when I drive the Mustang and people say "5.0?" and I say "no, it's just a 2.3L", the lights go out and suddenly they're not interested anymore.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

They only ask that because you don't have a stick....

DD9TransAmGTA

iTrader: (1)

How about if it is faster than a civic its a good engine LOL.

Zero27

I hate civics with every fiber that is my being

marokid

iTrader: (1)

OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP OP

scottmoyer

As you can see, I edited the thread to keep it on topic and removed all of the 305 vs 350 arguments. I left Drew's post that sums up the situation regarding the image of the 305. In the years prior to the 350, the 305 cars were great, but once the 350 came out, the 305 was passed on to being inferior in all ways. While it may not be, people that don't know better think so. Almost everybody asks if my car is a 350. They never ask if it's a 305.

Drew, yes, my Olds had an Olds 307. I read a couple posts and got caught up in the "307" part and forgot what I was doing. It was still a dog though!!!

SKELITOR117

iTrader: (3)

FYI. There isn't one "rarest" 3rdgen. There are several. There are alot of one of a kind prototype and concept 3rdgens.

zXtreme92

Mines in the running, out of only 1254 made less then 300 left as of 2009

scottmoyer

And where did you get the 300 number?

stealthroc89

Collectable, yes. Rare, no.

puma1552

iTrader: (1)

You sure the tech data on this site is right for the number of '92 Z28 'verts produced? Even 1990, which had less than half the production Camaros of '92, had 1294 IROC 'verts.

detltu

iTrader: (1)

The questions seem to be answered sufficiently for the birds, but the only Camaro that seems to make the ultra rare list is the first year 1LE. The 92 Z28 1LE with the heritage package is pretty rare, about 30 made I think. Broken down into 5 spd and 350 autos they are all pretty rare. They don't seem to be much more valuable than other 92 1LE's though. Rarity alone doesn't lead to value, it has to be something rare that a lot of people want. I would pay more for a 92 1LE Z03 car than I would for any other 3rd gen Camaro, but that is a personal preference and not one that is probably shared by others. The best bets are rare performance options, or rare body styles (mainly convertibles). I think that would speak to the TTA and Firehawk convertibles. Those are probably the most valuable 3rd gens out there.

I believe the 1LE's are probably the best bet for future value (or present value for low mileage cars). Simply because they were relatively unknown at the time (like the original Z28), they were made in fairly low quantities and they were designed for racing. They won't touch the ultra rare third gens, but they are the best bet IMO.

My buddy that has the only factory 5 speed 350 has really got it made (jk of course).

IMissMy86TA

The whole issue is that drew thinks it is OK to insult people with a particular engine. Calling it gay etc. He is very immature and you condone it and keep his post while removing any defense for a car that is very close in performance. good for you. He has no right to insult others cars with the ops blessing. I started to say mine is very rare.. 809 made.. (point of this thread yes?) and it is desireable, but its a 305 so he started throwing insults. Those that like cars like mine came to "our" defense. I am not happy that you only show one side of an argument.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

You left Drew's post? Not for nothing Scott, but I find your "decision" to allow Drew's post to remain rather insulting to everyone who took part in the conversation. Why is it that you would allow his post to remain with it embellishing such words as...;

.... when he himself essentially both started and contributed to all of the 305 bashing in the first place? Does such moderation sound feasible? I myself could care less if every one of my posts were removed from this thread, but to show favoritism to one member, who, goes out of his way to refer to member's here as having some form of reading comprehension problem simply because he ran out of argument and was proven wrong by everyone here, really isn't saying much. I myself am done with this thread now, but I am very disappointed in how it was moderated. Are you guys friends or something?

[/done]

88FormulaKiller

iTrader: (8)

i completely agree with imissmygta and Lethal, does drew have special privileges or something??

If anything Drew seems to be the most ignorant Third gen hobbyist ive seen on this thread with the whole condescending responses about engine sizes. I'm pretty sure most of the people driving third gens bought them for their exterior physical appearance, not because of whats under the hood.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

LOL You guys are funny. If you go back and read what I posted, it wasn't all that inflammatory. A few of you got your panties in a bunch, and steered the topic off into a debate. A debate which none of you could support with any facts. No one is disputing that the real world differences between the 305 and the 350 aren't always that great, and that's what you're trying to say. My position isn't that 305s are gay, you don't need to convince me. My position is that most people absolutely hate 305s, and that effects the value. That statement is on topic, and relevant. "My 305 does burnouts, and it's a real MUSCLE CAR" isn't on topic. I'm not insulting 305s, I'm just telling you how MOST people view them.

I've driven a thirdgen of one type or another since 1995. I've owned about a dozen thirdgens. I've been on this forum since 1996. I was a moderator here for several years. I know what people think of the 305. Sharing that knowledge, and applying it to the topic doesn't make me immature or ignorant. Getting upset about a comment on the internet, and being a crybaby about it is immature and ignorant. Grow a thicker skin, and stay on topic. Contribute more to a thread than publicly crying because someone might not like your car because of the engine. Get over it.

IMissMy86TA

Can't... it was removed... oops..

Again, being professional and adult. Debates are what happens in good forums, as long as they are respectful of one another.

We know that you speak in generalities and speak for the MOST of the car loving world. Why not just tell us that everyone hates Obama or George Bush....etc.. since you speak for MOST of us... or what food is better and put down anyone who disagrees with you

I know.. since you speak for MOST people.. then no one has a say that can be contrary to yours without name calling (crybaby, immature and ignorant) and belittlling others. Nice. Making fun of people.. no one did that to you or your cars. Yet you presist...

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Here's one of mine:









How rare? I don't know. G92/LB9/T5/3.45 Aussie BW rear, N10 dual cats, (because of the N10, the Feds kept my car from being released out of Van Nuys for weeks, until final certification), DX3 decal delete. I've never really seen one with the same combo of options.

88FormulaKiller

iTrader: (8)

And ive been building since 1992, doesnt mean i have a right to speak for the majority of the people.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Welp, I think there was some good discussion in the page or so that Scott deleted. Personally, if it were up to me, I would have left those posts up. Although slightly tangential, those posts also added some interesting points to the thread.

CamKid1992

Unsubscribing from what was an interesting thread.

IROCZTWENTYGR8

iTrader: (1)

Stay on topic guys, no bashing each others cars for whatever the reason.

Goodness Charlie, those are some incredibly huge and dark pics LOL.

IMissMy86TA

Nice car! no hold where the IROC panel is on the rear bottom of the fender? I didnt know they had the DX3..sweet! How many 5 speeds that year for ircos? how many miles you got on that car? very sweet!

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Yeah, I don't know why they're so dark. I had all the lights on.

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Thanks. DX3 was available '88-'90. Not too many were ordered though, I suspect that no one knew about them at the time. One sales person didn't even believe me when I told him that a "decal delete" option existed.

I've got just shy of 11K miles on it.

IMissMy86TA

wow very cool. if you ever want to sell it... keep me in mind!

chazman

iTrader: (4)

Beyond the usual, (ie., condition, mileage, etc.), what makes a 3rd gen valuable *to me* are any numbers of things. Certain color combos for example. Silver, yellow, medium gray, medium orange and others. As much as I hated the gaudiness of the LS Conteur interiors back in the day, they are now points of interest for me. A stick shift is a HUGE selling point and adds lots of value for me - so much so, that I usually skip over 5.7s because I know they lack a manual trans.

To me, something like an '85 Silver IROC, with a red LS Conteur interior, T5 and L69 is pretty much hitting the jackpot.

I mentioned previously that a neglected, but running, LB9/T5/3.45 '89 IROC is being parted on this site right now as we speak. Had I run across that one first, it would have had more value to me whole for it's relative rarity, than what it is being parted out for.


BTW, something odd like an Iron Duke, (stick required ), also has value to me.

DD9TransAmGTA

iTrader: (1)

I've heard Flame red with carmine interior is pretty rare but not the rarest. I wish the PO of mine kept the original seats in it. It has carmine interior.