GM has offically dropped the Pontiac brand.
04-25-2009, 01:01 PM
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GM has offically dropped the Pontiac brand.
April 24 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp., facing the threat of a bankruptcy filing if it can’t meet a June 1 U.S. deadline, will preserve the GMC truck line and drop its 83-year- old Pontiac brand as part of a government-led recalibration of its business plan, people familiar with the decision said.
The Detroit automaker, which received an additional $2 billion in federal assistance on April 22, will keep the GMC, Chevrolet, Cadillac and Buick brands, after a review that included profitability with the Obama administration’s automotive task force, said the people, who asked not to be named because the decisions have not been announced.
GM may reveal next week the end of the make that produced the Grand Prix, Bonneville and Firebirds, they said.
“I hate to see these brands go, they are a part of the American experience,” said John Wolkonowicz, a forecaster and auto historian at IHS Global Insight Inc. in Lexington, Massachusetts. “If you were growing up in the 1960s, Pontiac was the hottest thing going.”
Pontiac spawned the “muscle car” era in 1964 when it stuffed a 389-cubic-inch V8 engine into a Tempest and called it the GTO. Killing the brand highlights the changes GM is being forced to make to survive in its second century of carmaking.
GM had already decided late last year to cut Pontiac to a niche brand, possibly with just one model, to sell alongside Buick and GMC in combined showrooms. To trim from its roster of eight U.S. brands, GM has said it will sell or shut Hummer, Saab and Saturn.
Steve Harris, a GM spokesman, declined to comment on the brands.
Savings Needed
“I should have seen the signs: You can’t even order a 2010 Pontiac G6,” said Russ Shelton, a Pontiac-Buick-GMC dealer in Rochester Hills, Michigan. “Once they make this announcement, those are basically sales-proof.”
Chief Executive Officer Fritz Henderson is in a race against the June deadline set by President Barack Obama to find more savings from unions, creditors and operations.
A Pontiac announcement next week may be part of an outline of a plan to close plants and scrap models as much as four years sooner than planned to lower its break-even point, the people said.
Lower Break-Even
The cuts may mean GM can be profitable in a U.S. market with sales of as few as 10 million autos, said the people. The annual sales rate was 9.9 million in March, after GM said Feb. 17 its break-even target was 11.5 million to 12 million.
The number of brands is part of a discussion on how to speed up the winnowing of GM’s 6,200 dealer locations to 4,100 sites as quickly as possible, said one person.
The U.S. Treasury said today that it provided an additional $2 billion to keep GM operating. The new money is part of $5 billion disclosed this week in a report by the special inspector general for the Troubled Asset Relief Program. GM has received $15.4 billion from the Treasury.
GMC’s truck-building history dates to 1902, when brothers Max and Morris Grabowsky sold their first commercial model to a Detroit dry cleaner, according to GM’s Web site. Their Rapid Motor Vehicle Co. was absorbed by GM in 1912, along with two other Detroit-based commercial-vehicle makers, GM said.
By 1915, GMC produced the first light-duty vehicle with the basic configuration of a modern pickup, according to the automaker. GMC’s U.S. sales fell 26 percent last year to 376,996, making it GM’s second-largest brand after Chevrolet.
The Pontiac brand was first sold by GM in 1926, and U.S. sales peaked at 896,980 in 1978, according to trade publication Automotive News. Pontiac’s domestic deliveries fell 25 percent to 267,348 in 2008.
Muscle-Car Brand
Pontiac originated as part of the Oakland Car Co. of Pontiac, Michigan, in 1907. GM acquired Oakland in 1909 and introduced the first Pontiac vehicle in 1926 at the New York auto show. The Pontiac models were so popular they replaced the division’s namesake Oakland models.
By the 1950s, Pontiac sales were flagging as the brand was seen as an “old ladies” car with its signature “silver streaks” of chrome on the hood and trunk, Wolkoniwicz said.
In 1956, Semon “Bunkie” Knudsen took over the division, stripped off the streaks for the 1957 models and started making the changes that led to the GTO in 1964 --including the trademark split grill, Wolkoniwicz said.
‘Smokey and the Bandit’
Pontiac was the third best-selling brand in the early 1960s, passing Plymouth, which DaimlerChrysler AG killed in 2001, and trailing only Ford and Chevy.
Pontiac also had success in the 1960s and 1970s with its Firebird and Firebird Trans Am -- featured in the 1977 movie “Smokey and the Bandit,” staring Burt Reynolds and Sally Field.
“I’d rather keep it,” said David Cole, co-owner of the Cole Valley Pontiac Cadillac dealership located near the Lordstown, Ohio, assembly plant that builds the Pontiac G5. “The sooner they make clear what they’re going to do with the brand, the better it will be for us. I will survive. I just have to be able to plan.”
GM closed up 7 cents, or 4.3 percent, at $1.69 at in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. The shares have tumbled 93 percent in the past 12 months on concern that the company may collapse after $82 billion in losses since 2004.
GM has stepped up planning for both a new business model and a potential bankruptcy since late March, when the Obama administration asked CEO Rick Wagoner to resign and said it would back a “quick-rinse” bankruptcy to cut debt and other costs if GM couldn’t do so in 60 days.
Chevrolet and Cadillac are GM’s strongest brands and Buick is popular in China. GMC and Buick are both profitable, Henderson said April 17. Pontiac was scheduled for as few as one model, so killing it wasn’t as significant a step as deleting one of the other brands, one person said.
“Pontiac was the first real muscle car and the government doesn’t want muscle cars,” favoring fuel-efficient models, Wolkonowicz said. “I’m sad to see this brand go, it’s truly iconic.”
The Detroit automaker, which received an additional $2 billion in federal assistance on April 22, will keep the GMC, Chevrolet, Cadillac and Buick brands, after a review that included profitability with the Obama administration’s automotive task force, said the people, who asked not to be named because the decisions have not been announced.
GM may reveal next week the end of the make that produced the Grand Prix, Bonneville and Firebirds, they said.
“I hate to see these brands go, they are a part of the American experience,” said John Wolkonowicz, a forecaster and auto historian at IHS Global Insight Inc. in Lexington, Massachusetts. “If you were growing up in the 1960s, Pontiac was the hottest thing going.”
Pontiac spawned the “muscle car” era in 1964 when it stuffed a 389-cubic-inch V8 engine into a Tempest and called it the GTO. Killing the brand highlights the changes GM is being forced to make to survive in its second century of carmaking.
GM had already decided late last year to cut Pontiac to a niche brand, possibly with just one model, to sell alongside Buick and GMC in combined showrooms. To trim from its roster of eight U.S. brands, GM has said it will sell or shut Hummer, Saab and Saturn.
Steve Harris, a GM spokesman, declined to comment on the brands.
Savings Needed
“I should have seen the signs: You can’t even order a 2010 Pontiac G6,” said Russ Shelton, a Pontiac-Buick-GMC dealer in Rochester Hills, Michigan. “Once they make this announcement, those are basically sales-proof.”
Chief Executive Officer Fritz Henderson is in a race against the June deadline set by President Barack Obama to find more savings from unions, creditors and operations.
A Pontiac announcement next week may be part of an outline of a plan to close plants and scrap models as much as four years sooner than planned to lower its break-even point, the people said.
Lower Break-Even
The cuts may mean GM can be profitable in a U.S. market with sales of as few as 10 million autos, said the people. The annual sales rate was 9.9 million in March, after GM said Feb. 17 its break-even target was 11.5 million to 12 million.
The number of brands is part of a discussion on how to speed up the winnowing of GM’s 6,200 dealer locations to 4,100 sites as quickly as possible, said one person.
The U.S. Treasury said today that it provided an additional $2 billion to keep GM operating. The new money is part of $5 billion disclosed this week in a report by the special inspector general for the Troubled Asset Relief Program. GM has received $15.4 billion from the Treasury.
GMC’s truck-building history dates to 1902, when brothers Max and Morris Grabowsky sold their first commercial model to a Detroit dry cleaner, according to GM’s Web site. Their Rapid Motor Vehicle Co. was absorbed by GM in 1912, along with two other Detroit-based commercial-vehicle makers, GM said.
By 1915, GMC produced the first light-duty vehicle with the basic configuration of a modern pickup, according to the automaker. GMC’s U.S. sales fell 26 percent last year to 376,996, making it GM’s second-largest brand after Chevrolet.
The Pontiac brand was first sold by GM in 1926, and U.S. sales peaked at 896,980 in 1978, according to trade publication Automotive News. Pontiac’s domestic deliveries fell 25 percent to 267,348 in 2008.
Muscle-Car Brand
Pontiac originated as part of the Oakland Car Co. of Pontiac, Michigan, in 1907. GM acquired Oakland in 1909 and introduced the first Pontiac vehicle in 1926 at the New York auto show. The Pontiac models were so popular they replaced the division’s namesake Oakland models.
By the 1950s, Pontiac sales were flagging as the brand was seen as an “old ladies” car with its signature “silver streaks” of chrome on the hood and trunk, Wolkoniwicz said.
In 1956, Semon “Bunkie” Knudsen took over the division, stripped off the streaks for the 1957 models and started making the changes that led to the GTO in 1964 --including the trademark split grill, Wolkoniwicz said.
‘Smokey and the Bandit’
Pontiac was the third best-selling brand in the early 1960s, passing Plymouth, which DaimlerChrysler AG killed in 2001, and trailing only Ford and Chevy.
Pontiac also had success in the 1960s and 1970s with its Firebird and Firebird Trans Am -- featured in the 1977 movie “Smokey and the Bandit,” staring Burt Reynolds and Sally Field.
“I’d rather keep it,” said David Cole, co-owner of the Cole Valley Pontiac Cadillac dealership located near the Lordstown, Ohio, assembly plant that builds the Pontiac G5. “The sooner they make clear what they’re going to do with the brand, the better it will be for us. I will survive. I just have to be able to plan.”
GM closed up 7 cents, or 4.3 percent, at $1.69 at in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. The shares have tumbled 93 percent in the past 12 months on concern that the company may collapse after $82 billion in losses since 2004.
GM has stepped up planning for both a new business model and a potential bankruptcy since late March, when the Obama administration asked CEO Rick Wagoner to resign and said it would back a “quick-rinse” bankruptcy to cut debt and other costs if GM couldn’t do so in 60 days.
Chevrolet and Cadillac are GM’s strongest brands and Buick is popular in China. GMC and Buick are both profitable, Henderson said April 17. Pontiac was scheduled for as few as one model, so killing it wasn’t as significant a step as deleting one of the other brands, one person said.
“Pontiac was the first real muscle car and the government doesn’t want muscle cars,” favoring fuel-efficient models, Wolkonowicz said. “I’m sad to see this brand go, it’s truly iconic.”
04-25-2009, 02:26 PM
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
wow, that sucks to hear. I have mixed feelings about it. Sucks the Pontiac bloodline will not continue, but I guess it might be "cool" to have a car they no longer make, like and AMC
04-25-2009, 03:49 PM
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
I wouldn't quite say that...Bob Lutz wanted to bring excitement back to the division and really did succeed in that respect...it was the reputation that the division ended up getting when they were saddled with plastic body cladding and the Aztek. The bean counters should never be allowed to run an auto company. As the article says many people would have rather seen Buick go than Pontiac.
I guess we can now look forward to joining the other domestic brands at the Orphan Car shows. I think there is a five year wait before we are allowed to do that.
I guess we can now look forward to joining the other domestic brands at the Orphan Car shows. I think there is a five year wait before we are allowed to do that.
04-25-2009, 05:48 PM
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
Pontiac was GM's third biggest selling brand in 2008, but it has to go because people in China like Buicks better. What is going on...
04-25-2009, 05:50 PM
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
well there goes any hope for them bringing back the firebird.
04-25-2009, 09:07 PM
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
Ok guys. I locked the last thread about this and find it aggravating that another post was started the same day and just a few posts further down.
The fact that GM has decided to cancel the Pontiac brand has nothing to do with third gens. This is regarding the future, not the history or restoration of the 82-92 cars. The forum rules also state that political views are not allowed to be voiced. This is a tech only message board so his will be watched closely per JT. If it gets outta control, it will be locked also.
The fact that GM has decided to cancel the Pontiac brand has nothing to do with third gens. This is regarding the future, not the history or restoration of the 82-92 cars. The forum rules also state that political views are not allowed to be voiced. This is a tech only message board so his will be watched closely per JT. If it gets outta control, it will be locked also.
04-25-2009, 10:36 PM
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
i didnt know somebody posted this until i posted mine already..... but i guess rules are rules...... im just glad they at least didnt ship it off to another country like they did dodge.... at least they went out with a bang...
04-25-2009, 10:48 PM
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
Ok guys. I locked the last thread about this and find it aggravating that another post was started the same day and just a few posts further down.
The fact that GM has decided to cancel the Pontiac brand has nothing to do with third gens. This is regarding the future, not the history or restoration of the 82-92 cars. The forum rules also state that political views are not allowed to be voiced. This is a tech only message board so his will be watched closely per JT. If it gets outta control, it will be locked also.
The fact that GM has decided to cancel the Pontiac brand has nothing to do with third gens. This is regarding the future, not the history or restoration of the 82-92 cars. The forum rules also state that political views are not allowed to be voiced. This is a tech only message board so his will be watched closely per JT. If it gets outta control, it will be locked also.
I didn't know why the thread was shut down, and I didn't see anything in regards to political views. Sorry if this caused trouble for the moderators. As I was probably the first to bring it up a day or two ago.
04-26-2009, 02:40 AM
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
I agree with the above, how can it NOT be related to thirdgens!? A small example I can think of the top of my head is that I've seen many Camaro owners use 4th and newer emblems (for Chevy and such) and I myself have done the same with the Trans Am scripts.... I'd like to get new "Pontiac" script badging. Its not a political view, its just news...Also, there is a good point for car shows....
04-26-2009, 05:37 PM
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
I'm with Scott here... what does this have to do with 3rd gens? Yah it sucks this had to happen but it doesn't effect the 3rd gen culture at all. Parts will still be made, aftermarket companies will still make parts... you just won't be able to go to the Pontiac dealer to order OEM parts that probably don't exist anyways lol
04-26-2009, 07:59 PM
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
The fact that GM has decided to cancel the Pontiac brand has nothing to do with third gens. This is regarding the future, not the history or restoration of the 82-92 cars. The forum rules also state that political views are not allowed to be voiced. This is a tech only message board so his will be watched closely per JT. If it gets outta control, it will be locked also.
I could understand if this was about Olds or your wife dying, but Pontiacs ruled the streets in the late 60s and 70s, I know, I was there, and many on this board own a Pontiac.
My previous/currant Pontiacs
57 Star Chief conv
57 Star Chief hardtop
65 GTO w/factory air
68 GP
86 GP
89 GTA Conv.
04-26-2009, 08:15 PM
#15
Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
There is further no need to discuss whether or not this thread should be allowed when Scott already stated this thread will remain open unless it gets into a heated political discussion or other cause to warrant moderation as defined by our rules. Sorry, but the staff sets and enforces the rules - and has been the case for years.
Please, let's go back to the original topic at hand - Pontiac's future. This thread will be locked if the original topic at hand (Pontiac's future) is dismissed over discussion/debate of staff decisions.
Thanks.
Please, let's go back to the original topic at hand - Pontiac's future. This thread will be locked if the original topic at hand (Pontiac's future) is dismissed over discussion/debate of staff decisions.
Thanks.
04-27-2009, 06:22 AM
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
Hate to think that Poncho is gone! At 53, the brand has always been a part of my life. The first family car I remember was a 1954 Starchief Coupe. The last Pontiac's Dad owned were a 1966 Bonnieville, 421, three duces, and a 1967 GTO 389, 4 speed. Lots of history associated with the brand. One bright spot for us thirdgen fans, is that with time, outsiders will start to take our cars seriously, like people always do once a brand is discontinued.
04-27-2009, 08:13 AM
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
Love it or hate it, the fact that the demise of Pontiac is apparently inevitable is unavoidable. The reasons are very clear when you look at everything that they are accounting for. Keep in mind that the same thing happened to Oldsmobile in 2003, it became increasingly obvious that Oldsmobile was just another line that had to be up kept to compete in a world market. It was rumored that Buick and Pontiac would be going this way eventually as early as 2003, but it never happened. One thing that did happen is Buick has a VERY strong following in China, so they really could not just up and drop the name because there are more Buicks sold in China than any other make...
A 2012 Buick Firebird... I think that may be a stretch, there is no plans to reinvent a Firebird, there never was. HOWEVER there is hope, Apparently ASC (yes the same people that made the 3rd Gen Convertibles (there is your tie-in to third gens) and the 1998 - 2002 WS6 Formula's and Trans Am's are possibly making a Trans Am and a Formula based upon the new 5th Gen Camaro platform... Basically it would be a conversion where the car would get new fascias, and some body treatment. I am not sure how they will ultimately market the car without Pontiac, but there is more than one way. I guess they could sell and market the car under Buick or another GM brand, it may make the most sense. ASC may release the car under the Chevrolet brand as an alternative to the regular Camaro... There has also been talk about upgrading the engine components to outperform the regular Camaro's as well as the cars would only get a V8 from what I was reading.
It may actually increase the values of our Firebirds ultimately...
John
A 2012 Buick Firebird... I think that may be a stretch, there is no plans to reinvent a Firebird, there never was. HOWEVER there is hope, Apparently ASC (yes the same people that made the 3rd Gen Convertibles (there is your tie-in to third gens) and the 1998 - 2002 WS6 Formula's and Trans Am's are possibly making a Trans Am and a Formula based upon the new 5th Gen Camaro platform... Basically it would be a conversion where the car would get new fascias, and some body treatment. I am not sure how they will ultimately market the car without Pontiac, but there is more than one way. I guess they could sell and market the car under Buick or another GM brand, it may make the most sense. ASC may release the car under the Chevrolet brand as an alternative to the regular Camaro... There has also been talk about upgrading the engine components to outperform the regular Camaro's as well as the cars would only get a V8 from what I was reading.
It may actually increase the values of our Firebirds ultimately...
John
04-27-2009, 08:47 AM
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
As mentioned before, it was inevitable when an automaker starts slapping plastic on chevy vehicles and try to remarket them with the same drivetrain. I mean c'mon, the escalade used to be barely anything more than a highly covered in plastic GMC, and to this day in many respects still is. Chevrolet and Cadillac will never die, Buick i wouldn't mind seeing, but marketing is marketing, and if China is a big seller, than so be it. Pontiac lost it's pizzaz (sp) a long time ago, and this is very unfortunate. Gonna miss the Pontaic G8 and the hopes of dreams of millions wishing for a new Firebird.
RIP - Pontiac
okfoz, you have any links or paperwork talking about ASC? very interested!
RIP - Pontiac
okfoz, you have any links or paperwork talking about ASC? very interested!
04-27-2009, 09:56 AM
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
READ THAT THIS MORNING AND I AM VERY UPSET AND SAD!!! IT SUCKS!!!
04-27-2009, 10:34 AM
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
Pontiac is/was a good brand. The Fiero I had was a reliable car and everyone I know who had a Pontiac, Firebirds included, have no problems with them. Hell the G8 just came out and why not give a good potential sleeper at least a few years. Now Saturn, owning three in my life time, just went down the toilet. The last two we just complete junk. That marque I am not sorry to see go. SAAB should have been left to some other company to deal with. Hummer could have been a limited manufacture vehicle and not thrown out in bulk. And of course Lotus. That one I would have held onto.
PLEASE DO NOT BYPASS LANGUAGE FILTERS. THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED FOR LANGUAGE CONTENT.
PLEASE DO NOT BYPASS LANGUAGE FILTERS. THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED FOR LANGUAGE CONTENT.
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04-27-2009, 10:35 AM
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
It makes me wonder how a younger generation looks at Pontiacs if no new ones are ever produced again. If I have a kid, how would no new pontiacs affect their perception of my still kickin-*** 1984 Trans Am? OKFOZ, I hadn't heard about ASCs plans or even interest in a 5th gen based firebird conversion. can you provide any links for me to read more about it?
04-27-2009, 10:50 AM
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
Yeah but where do we source parts? I already joined a GTR website in Australia hoping to locate a source for differential parts.
04-27-2009, 11:21 AM
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
I may be wrong, but I don't think GM or the dealerships will all of sudden throw out $$$$ in parts - especially when so many of the still available Thirdgen Firebird parts cross over with the Camaros. On the other hand, I wouldn't wait too long if you're thinking about stocking up on OEM parts.
I am more curious as to what effect this will have on the future value of the Thirdgen Firebirds.
Someone with much more knowlege than I may be able to respond, but when other marques dissapeared, such as Hudson, Studebaker, MG, Triumph,....did the values ultimately go up, down or stay the same?
I am more curious as to what effect this will have on the future value of the Thirdgen Firebirds.
Someone with much more knowlege than I may be able to respond, but when other marques dissapeared, such as Hudson, Studebaker, MG, Triumph,....did the values ultimately go up, down or stay the same?
04-27-2009, 11:26 AM
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
Yes i knew it was coming but didn't want to see this day at all...i was shocked to see Oldsmobile get the axe...but I'm floored that Pontiac could not escape...GM has made a bad mistake in my book. Pontiac was a brand of excitement...true some years were better than others but they always had something in the stables that was talked about...The 60's = The GTO... the 70's The GTO, Trans Am/Firebird..The 80's Trans Am/Firebird..(Knight Rider helped alot).. Fiero...The 90's ..The Trans Am/Firebird (Lt-1 made people stop and stare) , Grand Prix (wide track supercharged) The 2000 till now...Trans Am/Firebird, Grand Prix, GTO, Solstice, G8... It's a shame that it's gone...but they keep Buick?!!!!...How does that work?!!!...But Buick needed to go faster than Pontiac...After the Buick Grand National died to me buick died...has there been any car in the line up after the GN that has moved the public???...NO...People I know don't care zip about Buick...and over half on this board don't even know what cars they are selling? I think they have 3 or 4 cars in their line up...but they kill Pontiac...does not make sense..well...R.I.P. Pontiac...you will be missed...i know these are not 3rd Gens but here are some of my favorite Pontiacs...If you have some post them up for Pontiac...1927 to 2010..RIP
04-27-2009, 11:52 AM
#27
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
It stinks, the owners here are huge Pontiac guys and own quite a few of them. The Pontiac brand had a huge influence on the muscle car error.
Keep you're third gens looking good guys,those are nice body styles.
Keep you're third gens looking good guys,those are nice body styles.
04-27-2009, 12:33 PM
#28
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
We had 4 Pontiacs that I know of in the family, there may be more but I don't know.
1977 Firebird, white with blue stripe going down the side, had a 301 and a 4 on the floor. Dad bought new lasted til 86 or 87.
1978 Firebird Esprit, blue with a Tenth Anniversary Trans Am interior, had a 305 and an automatic. Bought when the 77 was wrecked the final time, sold in 91 I think
1984 Trans Am, Gray and Silver, L69 with five speed, currently in the process of what will be a long restoration by me. Bought in 1990, still own it today.
My brother bought a 1986 Fiero GT two years ago with a 2.8 V6 and a four speed manual. Hes currently tuning a supercharged 3800 that he swapped in over the winter with my help.
If I find the photos of the other firebirds and the Fiero I will post them but my car is in my avatar.
1977 Firebird, white with blue stripe going down the side, had a 301 and a 4 on the floor. Dad bought new lasted til 86 or 87.
1978 Firebird Esprit, blue with a Tenth Anniversary Trans Am interior, had a 305 and an automatic. Bought when the 77 was wrecked the final time, sold in 91 I think
1984 Trans Am, Gray and Silver, L69 with five speed, currently in the process of what will be a long restoration by me. Bought in 1990, still own it today.
My brother bought a 1986 Fiero GT two years ago with a 2.8 V6 and a four speed manual. Hes currently tuning a supercharged 3800 that he swapped in over the winter with my help.
If I find the photos of the other firebirds and the Fiero I will post them but my car is in my avatar.
04-27-2009, 12:36 PM
#29
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
We've had two... a 1970something Bonneville that was huge and kept blowing headgaskets and my dads 2004 GTP; which he still has.
04-27-2009, 12:50 PM
#30
Moderator
Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
Pontiac going away should not impact the value of the car or parts availability. I owned an 86 442 after Olds folded and it's value remained constant. Also with the crossover of parts between brands, I was able to get parts from Buick, Chevy, Cadillac, etc.
I'm hoping the G6, G8 and Solstice become either part of the Chevy lineup or the Buick lineup. The G8 could be turned into the modern Grand National if done correctly. Remember the Plymouth Prowler? When Plymouth folded, the car was brought in under the Dodge brand until it's demise.
Buick is sticking around because it is the US made luxury car coveted overseas. We like to consider Mercedes and BMW as luxury imports. The Chinese and others believe you have achieved a certain status if you own and drive a Buick. It is the #1 selling luxury brand overseas. All we can do is hope the G8 sticks around under a different name.
I'm hoping the G6, G8 and Solstice become either part of the Chevy lineup or the Buick lineup. The G8 could be turned into the modern Grand National if done correctly. Remember the Plymouth Prowler? When Plymouth folded, the car was brought in under the Dodge brand until it's demise.
Buick is sticking around because it is the US made luxury car coveted overseas. We like to consider Mercedes and BMW as luxury imports. The Chinese and others believe you have achieved a certain status if you own and drive a Buick. It is the #1 selling luxury brand overseas. All we can do is hope the G8 sticks around under a different name.
04-27-2009, 12:56 PM
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
Well, one thing that comes to mind is going to a Pontiac dealer to pick up a replacement part; there won't be a Pontiac dealer anymore.
04-27-2009, 01:23 PM
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
Actually the Prowler was brought under the Chrysler name but thats off the point....
04-27-2009, 01:35 PM
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
Yeah but if they're like my local dealer they also sell GMC , and they use to sell Olds . So now they will only sell GMC . Good thing they also have a partnership with the local Dodge dealership or they would probably end up closeing since we have a local Chevrolet dealership also . If the big three would listen to the public more on what we wanted and still have good mileage/performance they would not be in the mess they are in with the Gov. and the money they got from them .
Last edited by 89-bird; 04-27-2009 at 01:39 PM.
04-27-2009, 02:56 PM
#34
Moderator
Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
They can't please everyone.The reason they are in this situation is because they are victims of a banking industry fallout and gasoline being a commodity. The gas prices rose beyond where they should have because of greed. It is the same greed that brought the banking and mortgage industry to it's knees. Chrysler and GM, like many other businesses are victims of an economy where loans are not being granted by the banks. Without loans, cars can't be sold. Cars don't sell, dealers fold. Ford was lucky that they restructured in 2006 when they needed to for financial reasons, or they'd be hurting also. Has anyone heard on the news that Toyota has asked for $5 Billion from the Japanese gov't? This is a global issue, not just here. Some will say that the reason GM and Chrysler are in this situation because they didn't listen to us when we asked for more "green" cars. They listened to us and built what we wanted...SUVs, trucks and big, safe cars! Very few want the small, unsafe, green cars!
Oh, let's not forget that the Corvette gets 28 mpg out of a 450hp motor. They can do better, but there are reasons we cannot discuss here as to why the Big 3 don't get better mileage. A BMW in Germany gets much better mileage than the same car when it gets imported to the US.
My comments above lightly touch on political issues but do not portray any political agenda or beliefs, so they are not in board violation. I am speaking in terms of reality and current economic situations that we are all aware of. Do not take any of what I said as a political statement for or against the Bush administration or the Obama administration. The issues we are working thru now are private industry issues that have a global effect.
04-27-2009, 03:05 PM
#35
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
Yeah but if they're like my local dealer they also sell GMC , and they use to sell Olds . So now they will only sell GMC . Good thing they also have a partnership with the local Dodge dealership or they would probably end up closeing since we have a local Chevrolet dealership also . If the big three would listen to the public more on what we wanted and still have good mileage/performance they would not be in the mess they are in with the Gov. and the money they got from them .
I really think that despite loosing a brand that we love, we have to look at the reality.GM should be done, for good but there still around by some grace of the govt. And in the coming months there are going to be many suprises. If they cant stay afloat then we might not even be seeing a 5th gen camaro. Whats good for us is 3rd gens are long done GM production, we dont have to worry about that. Im more worried about them making it through the year, because they have been cutting brands/dumping parts and cutting costs for a while now.
04-27-2009, 03:16 PM
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090427/..._ge/us_gm_plan
If you read this official public announcement there is a whole lot going on here.
I see this whole thing as way for the Feds (you and me) to guarantee the union pensions at 100%. This deal stinks of backdoor politics between the Feds and the union.
As for Pontiac, its been downhill for them this whole century. You cant sell something you dont advertise and thats how they killed the F body. in 02 I went to the local PMD dealer to inquire about a firehawk- they never heard of it.
They had one TA and one bird the rest were GMC SUVs.
Sorry to see it go, I only liked Pontiacs and Oldsmobiles. Years ago my dad said "The good cars died due to the cost, only the junk survives.".
If you read this official public announcement there is a whole lot going on here.
I see this whole thing as way for the Feds (you and me) to guarantee the union pensions at 100%. This deal stinks of backdoor politics between the Feds and the union.
As for Pontiac, its been downhill for them this whole century. You cant sell something you dont advertise and thats how they killed the F body. in 02 I went to the local PMD dealer to inquire about a firehawk- they never heard of it.
They had one TA and one bird the rest were GMC SUVs.
Sorry to see it go, I only liked Pontiacs and Oldsmobiles. Years ago my dad said "The good cars died due to the cost, only the junk survives.".
04-27-2009, 03:25 PM
#37
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
GM, Chrysler, Ford is having problems due to a lot of things and it is mostly to due to regulations and what the Government has done...
Fuel Economy...
Sure the fuel economy of new cars sucks, but why you ask... it has to do with EPA mandates with emissions. You can actually see where every time the govenment steps in to make the air cleaner to help with lowering the Lie of Global warming when it has cooled over the past 10 years we end up with cars that get worse economy. See http://www.isthereglobalcooling.com/ and tell me there is global warming...
My mother got 33 Mpg (Highway) in a 94 Buick Roadmaster, LT1 when it was new. They can hardly get a cavalier to get 33 Mpg right now, it has to do with the current EPA regulations, ultimately who is to blame? You can blame the lobby groups (Dirt lovers) or you can blame the government, do not blame GM, Ford & Chrysler.
The second problem is there are more people that have retired and GM has to pay retirement benefits for all of those retirees. It used to be that people would retire and die in a few years, now they are living on and on. In the end what happens is Toyota and other foreign companies do NOT have the amount of retirees here in the US, when the time comes, I wonder if the US government will bail out a Forign company... It will happen, give it 30 years ( you read it here first).
GM has to make cuts somewhere, and most of these models will probably live on as something else... I suspect Buick may get a few, as will Chevrolet. The Solstice will probably get a face lift and become a Chevrolet, and the G6 will probably become a Buick of some sort, as will the G8. That is my guess at this point because Buick does not have cars in those areas, where Chevrolet already does. There would be no need for a Buick Solstice, it does not meet the demographic of people that buy a Buick. Anyone's guess is as good as mine as for what will happen to some of the models, some will probably die with Pontiac, others will live on as something else...
No matter what happens, the only way for GM to get out of this is to go Bankrupt and reorganize, they will have to break the back of the union. The government is doing everything they can not to let this happen, in effect the US govt will try to keep GM afloat to save the union to save Votes in 2010... No matter how many times they bail out GM it is only prolonging the inevitable.
John
Fuel Economy...
Sure the fuel economy of new cars sucks, but why you ask... it has to do with EPA mandates with emissions. You can actually see where every time the govenment steps in to make the air cleaner to help with lowering the Lie of Global warming when it has cooled over the past 10 years we end up with cars that get worse economy. See http://www.isthereglobalcooling.com/ and tell me there is global warming...
My mother got 33 Mpg (Highway) in a 94 Buick Roadmaster, LT1 when it was new. They can hardly get a cavalier to get 33 Mpg right now, it has to do with the current EPA regulations, ultimately who is to blame? You can blame the lobby groups (Dirt lovers) or you can blame the government, do not blame GM, Ford & Chrysler.
The second problem is there are more people that have retired and GM has to pay retirement benefits for all of those retirees. It used to be that people would retire and die in a few years, now they are living on and on. In the end what happens is Toyota and other foreign companies do NOT have the amount of retirees here in the US, when the time comes, I wonder if the US government will bail out a Forign company... It will happen, give it 30 years ( you read it here first).
GM has to make cuts somewhere, and most of these models will probably live on as something else... I suspect Buick may get a few, as will Chevrolet. The Solstice will probably get a face lift and become a Chevrolet, and the G6 will probably become a Buick of some sort, as will the G8. That is my guess at this point because Buick does not have cars in those areas, where Chevrolet already does. There would be no need for a Buick Solstice, it does not meet the demographic of people that buy a Buick. Anyone's guess is as good as mine as for what will happen to some of the models, some will probably die with Pontiac, others will live on as something else...
No matter what happens, the only way for GM to get out of this is to go Bankrupt and reorganize, they will have to break the back of the union. The government is doing everything they can not to let this happen, in effect the US govt will try to keep GM afloat to save the union to save Votes in 2010... No matter how many times they bail out GM it is only prolonging the inevitable.
John
04-27-2009, 03:48 PM
#39
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
I also suspect that most pontiac models will live on as something else, they didnt have that many of them to begin with, also pontiac was home to alot of their smaller cars so axing them altogether is pointless, because thats where the trends are now.
04-27-2009, 03:59 PM
#40
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
Sorry, and ANGRY, to hear that Pontiac is going to die in 2010. I have always been a Pontiac fan, and would love to see them continue, but I guess all good things must come to an end. Here's to the brand that brought us:
The GTO
The Firebird
The Fiero
The Bonneville
The Grand Prix
The Grand Am
The G8
The G6
The Solstice
These are just my highlights. Some years of these cars were obviously better than others, but all had their moments.
R.I.P. Pontiac... We'll miss you!
I figure that the value of our thirdgens will probably go up slightly because of this, but not anything too drastic. The only reason that the values might go up is because of speculation... If someone has been thinking about getting an older Pontiac, then they may figure it's now or never.
The GTO
The Firebird
The Fiero
The Bonneville
The Grand Prix
The Grand Am
The G8
The G6
The Solstice
These are just my highlights. Some years of these cars were obviously better than others, but all had their moments.
R.I.P. Pontiac... We'll miss you!
I figure that the value of our thirdgens will probably go up slightly because of this, but not anything too drastic. The only reason that the values might go up is because of speculation... If someone has been thinking about getting an older Pontiac, then they may figure it's now or never.
04-27-2009, 04:47 PM
#41
Senior Member
Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
The GTO
The Firebird
The Fiero
The Bonneville
The Grand Prix
The Grand Am
The G8
The G6
The Solstice
....don't forget the tempest, Lemans, Safari Wagon, Star Chief, Cheiftan, Catalina, Sunbird, and the Sunfire..of course there are a list of others, but those other ones (ie torrent/aztec) is something i'm not all a fan of...
I'm a bit for concern myself of trying to find parts for my car now. I can only think that as part of the restructuring plan that GM would either slow down the production of parts or may even eliminate the production line entirely. Then what? I have already heard aftermarket parts from places like OER having issues with quality and such. Also i'm having a hard time finding nos parts or reproduction parts for my car. One such item is those front fascia ground effects! Classic Industries have stopped selling them awhile ago and i doubt gm would even sell them anymore being that they're discontinued items! I don't want no junkyard part that's gonna cost me an arm and a leg! ....Its almost like we have to keep our 3rdgen firebird in a capsule just to be on the safe side. Only time will tell what's gonna happen, but i really feel empty inside, now that Pontiac is now a just a memory.
The Firebird
The Fiero
The Bonneville
The Grand Prix
The Grand Am
The G8
The G6
The Solstice
....don't forget the tempest, Lemans, Safari Wagon, Star Chief, Cheiftan, Catalina, Sunbird, and the Sunfire..of course there are a list of others, but those other ones (ie torrent/aztec) is something i'm not all a fan of...
I'm a bit for concern myself of trying to find parts for my car now. I can only think that as part of the restructuring plan that GM would either slow down the production of parts or may even eliminate the production line entirely. Then what? I have already heard aftermarket parts from places like OER having issues with quality and such. Also i'm having a hard time finding nos parts or reproduction parts for my car. One such item is those front fascia ground effects! Classic Industries have stopped selling them awhile ago and i doubt gm would even sell them anymore being that they're discontinued items! I don't want no junkyard part that's gonna cost me an arm and a leg! ....Its almost like we have to keep our 3rdgen firebird in a capsule just to be on the safe side. Only time will tell what's gonna happen, but i really feel empty inside, now that Pontiac is now a just a memory.
04-27-2009, 06:37 PM
#42
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
My sister felt the need to call and console my father and I.
04-28-2009, 11:21 AM
#43
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
Don't forget about some of the cool things Pontiac did... Like the OHC I6 back in the 60's, and the technological advancements made, such as the layout of the 1962 Pontiac Tempest, which had the exact same layout as the modern day Corvette, only 40 years earlier!
Also, don't forget that Super Duty was a Pontiac term before Ford swiped it and stuck it on their trucks.
Also, don't forget that Super Duty was a Pontiac term before Ford swiped it and stuck it on their trucks.
04-28-2009, 11:55 AM
#44
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
Do nto forget the "Wide Track" that they offered in the 60's and the "Swiss Cheeze" cars that they made for drag racing... And the Aluminum body panels to "Cheat" in the Firehawk series...
John
John
04-28-2009, 04:14 PM
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
Sad day indeed.
For those with the resources, now might be the time to pick up those "Pontiac" parts from GM while they are still around. I can assure you in short order those parts are going to go away... any that are still left in production anyway.
FYI I went to my Chevy dealer a month ago to pick up a reman ECM for my "Pontiac" Firebird and the clown behind the counter thats been there at least 3 years couldnt find it and told me to go to the Pontiac dealer. So I would not rely on Chevy to fill in the void because thats not the first time a Chevy parts guy told me that.
For those with the resources, now might be the time to pick up those "Pontiac" parts from GM while they are still around. I can assure you in short order those parts are going to go away... any that are still left in production anyway.
FYI I went to my Chevy dealer a month ago to pick up a reman ECM for my "Pontiac" Firebird and the clown behind the counter thats been there at least 3 years couldnt find it and told me to go to the Pontiac dealer. So I would not rely on Chevy to fill in the void because thats not the first time a Chevy parts guy told me that.
04-28-2009, 04:25 PM
#46
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
i've heard that too many times, even when they are owned by the same people and right across the street, lol
04-30-2009, 04:42 PM
#47
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
With Buick, I like the Grand National idea but that would really be the revivial of the GTO. In any case, I'm afraid the next car I buy will be...
Hell, I dunno.
German?
Hell, I dunno.
German?
05-01-2009, 07:42 AM
#48
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
You may not have any other choice other than to buy foreign once the whole thing pans out. Last time I checked the Government could not even do their job in a satisfactory manor, Now they might be in control of some of the worlds largest companies? This will work well...
Ultimately there may be no GM. The heck of it is, we the people invested how many BILLION into Chrysler to have it go into bankruptcy anyways? We have also invested into GM, and it too WILL fail, no matter what the government tries to do, it is inevitable.
The Government should have let them go into bankruptcy in the first place and saved us all a lot of money...
Approx 300,000,000 people in the US
Total Bailout for Both Chrysler and GM is approximately $25,000,000,000 Or $83.34 per every woman, man and Child in the US...
That does not sound too bad, but when you consider that ultimately it will be the US that will own a failing company, and not let them restructure so that they could actually MAKE money instead of taking money from "We the People" after a while it will add up... It may NEVER end, and that is the sad part about it.
John
Ultimately there may be no GM. The heck of it is, we the people invested how many BILLION into Chrysler to have it go into bankruptcy anyways? We have also invested into GM, and it too WILL fail, no matter what the government tries to do, it is inevitable.
The Government should have let them go into bankruptcy in the first place and saved us all a lot of money...
Approx 300,000,000 people in the US
Total Bailout for Both Chrysler and GM is approximately $25,000,000,000 Or $83.34 per every woman, man and Child in the US...
That does not sound too bad, but when you consider that ultimately it will be the US that will own a failing company, and not let them restructure so that they could actually MAKE money instead of taking money from "We the People" after a while it will add up... It may NEVER end, and that is the sad part about it.
John
05-01-2009, 07:21 PM
#49
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Re: GM has offically dropped the pontiac brand
Not to knit-pik but
Wide Track came out in 1959 and would not fit in two track car washes.
Aluminum body panels were on 62 Catalinas, and 64-65 GTOs built for drag racing.
They tweeked a 65 2+2 to do 0-60 in 4sec.
The Bonnevilles first year was 1957 and available with 389ci tri power or FI only. The built just over 500 to qualify for NASCAR and cleaned house by the end of the 58 season NASCAR outlawed multiple carbs and FI.
In 57 the rims were shrunk to 14in but the drums stayed the same as the 15in wheels earlier. The brakes got so hot that your third panic stop in a row was accomplished with shoe leather.
The 68 GP was the biggest built - 69 was on the GTO frame. The HP 400 in the 68 would cruise at 80 and get 18mpg.
With corvair mufflers at between 65 and 70 you could not hear the engine or exhaust.
When I sold it with 132,000 miles it still had zero leaks and the oil changed from new looking to slightly dark about 1800 miles after a oil change.
The 86 GP was rated at ~140hp. Hated anything over 70mph.
Wide Track came out in 1959 and would not fit in two track car washes.
Aluminum body panels were on 62 Catalinas, and 64-65 GTOs built for drag racing.
They tweeked a 65 2+2 to do 0-60 in 4sec.
The Bonnevilles first year was 1957 and available with 389ci tri power or FI only. The built just over 500 to qualify for NASCAR and cleaned house by the end of the 58 season NASCAR outlawed multiple carbs and FI.
In 57 the rims were shrunk to 14in but the drums stayed the same as the 15in wheels earlier. The brakes got so hot that your third panic stop in a row was accomplished with shoe leather.
The 68 GP was the biggest built - 69 was on the GTO frame. The HP 400 in the 68 would cruise at 80 and get 18mpg.
With corvair mufflers at between 65 and 70 you could not hear the engine or exhaust.
When I sold it with 132,000 miles it still had zero leaks and the oil changed from new looking to slightly dark about 1800 miles after a oil change.
The 86 GP was rated at ~140hp. Hated anything over 70mph.