irok2fast4u

my opinion is there is a ton of truth in this thread but why is there a new mustang with a six cyl. at every other corner today, some people like the way a car looks ,the way it makes them feel, not how fast they can make it go in a straight line..why isnt there any threads complaning about that there are ton of new cars considered retro or stylish no camaros at every corner anymore thats what sukkks

GTA1990

iTrader: (1)

Interesting read - I'd bandwagon with the comments about imperfect information (no internet, library of brochures, GM ads etc.) making the buyer at the mercy of the dealer and the overall cost these cars were approaching (purchase, runnining incl. insurance) pricing them out of its target market. GTA source page magazine articles seem to all have 2 things in common:

- one the swan-song times of rear-drive v8 muscle car platform
- two the price of a fully-contended 5.7Ltr F-body

I'd pitch the guys who could comfortably afford a 350 would maybe consider them alittle adolescent and out-dated compared to european alternatives. - More prominent maybe for V8 4th gens - a booming second hand market but dwindling primary market

Re: imperfect info - can you imagine having thirdgen.org on your blackberry whilst shopping for your 5.7litre Camaro/ Trans Am (j/k)

rednekwizard

plus the fact that the camaros didn't have an option for the 350 until 1987, that left the 305 the biggest engine you could get, unless you built one yourself to put into it.

Mudskunk

the people that wanted bigger engines were by and large too young to have the income to afford them. those that did generally opted for vettes or eurotrash cars. few were sold new many ended up on used lots and only sold much much later.

thats why you will probably never see an 18-30 year old drive a Z06 or the top end 2010/2011 camaro off the lot brand new.

i carried full coverage + loan insurance on my 87 formula back in late 86 when i was 20ish. couldnt afford the 350 but i was jusssssssttttt barrrrely able to get a 305 with t-tops. since then i learned its better to wait till the price drops to get the car you really want.

i just bought a 2001 trans am WS6 in superb condition for less than half the sticker price. insurance is super cheap for me so it makes a rocket like that really affordable.

not a lot of dealerships are really willing to order a vehicle, they want to sell what is on the lot. fully loaded vehicles are rare since such a car may sit for months before anyone even asks about it.

hardon85

I realize this is a very old thread and I think the truth has come out in some form or another here but as one person stated the 350 was not available with the GM rebate and when that figured in the option was closer to $4000 than $300 which would be a lot to pay for 10 or 15 HP. Also as was also stated there was no internet back then so where did we get all of our information? Some got them from magazines but for the most part most of the info came from the salesman and how could we check to see if he's telling the truth? There really was no way there was no internet so of coarse no internet groups (like this one) with a common interest in a car. The salesman could have said anything like "we've sold all of our allotted 350s and we can't get another one till next year", or "nobody will ever be able to tell the difference between a 305 and 350 it's mainly a status thing and to tell you the truth I would rather have a 305" or they could have flat out said "they don't exist they were supposed to but I've never seen one so I think they got pushed backed to next year". Today we know that these are flat out lies but how would we know back then, sure we could've read it in a magazine but most people would think "well he works with GM everyday I guess he would know better than the magazine I read 3 months ago. Today buyers are better educated in every way mainly because of the internet. Today you can go to their website build your car with the options you want and then at the end you can find nearby dealers that have the car you want. Again that wasn't available then. When I had graduated from high school (2000) I wanted a new grand am with a 5 speed so I went and talked to a salesman who was older and he said "you can't get the grand am with a 5 speed" and I went and grabbed a brochure and showed him a picture of it in there and in the back where it listed all the options and he said (you wouldn't want a 5 speed anyway, they seem like fun at first but it gets old real fast and not to mention you will never get anything for it when you trade it in" after arguing with him for a little while about what I wanted I finally said "Ok that's fine I'll go some place I can get what I want" and walked out. He then chased me out the door and said "hey real quick just drive around the building so they can look at your car and I have a real nice GT here that you will be much happier with" I just drove off the lot. But this salesman was an older guy and I'm sure thought I wouldn't know any different since I'm sure he had sold many cars by telling the person what THEY wanted. Anyway I'm sure there was lots of salesman like that in the 80s and no one ever questioned them because how would they know (I had already looked at the brochure on the internet that's how I knew the pic and info was in there, but if I didn't know that I never would've thought to grab it and show him)

And also as was stated GM wanted to build cars that sold. They get absolutely nothing from a 3rd gen today as most if not all parts 3rd gen exclusive have been discontinued. The only thing a 3rd gen is good for to GM is to take a picture of all the generations of Camaros with the new 5th gen. It's kind of funny how when the car was new you got a discount to get a manual trans but today they seem to bring more money used.

89RsPower!

Not sure why this is even a thread, it seems kind of obvious. The answer is the same today, most consumers arn't looking for the biggest baddest version available, they are simply interested in a certian model of car and look for the vehicle that suits them for the best deal they can get on it. Most dealers are only interested in moving what they have in stock, special order vehicles are an extreme rarity, most of the time if you try to special order a vehicle they'll try to talk you into buying the vehicle that is the closest match to what u want that they already have in stock and try to close the sale with discounts etc. Also there are corporate restrictions on what some dealers are allowed to order based on various factors. I remember for example several years back, 06 or 07 a chevy dealer I was working at wasn't allowed to get a single z06 despite the fact they had several customers willing to pay 20k over sticker to get a hold of one... so back to your question, I seriously doubt very many customers "ordered" these cars with a specific power plant under the hood, the vast majority of them purchased what suited them, was available, in their price range, etc. Also if you compare factory ratings of a tpi 305 and 350 they arn't that different, most people back then didn't think about em the way we do (I.E which responds better to mods, the % of power gained from the same mod on smaller cubed engine vs the larger nor things such as problems with valve shrouding due to bore size etc, they were mearly comparing window stickers which didn't make them seem so different with the same induction.) With that in mind forget everything u've learned over the years and stick ur self in their shoes, not much of a difference performance wise, cheaper sticker price, the only way you can get a manual trans (which is a HUGE factor to a lot of people buying a sports car) and most likely CHEAPER INSURANCE! Add all of those things togather and it makes sense to me.. Hell I probably would still buy a factory tpi 5 speed car if I were to come across a time machine and enough 80's dated $$$ to buy 1 from a dealer.. Preferably in a 1990 Iroc w/ 1LE option, If I wanted somethin even smaller I'd get a firebird with a v6, heck not even a 5.0 I'd get me a lil 3.8 in a crummy 89 tta.. not even a chevy engine or a poncho but a buick?!? Oh the lack of cubes, I'd have to replace the drivetrain w/a 350asap!

Brock Lee

I tagged along to the dealership a few times in the mid-late 80's when various family members were buying. Then I had my own turn in 1991. It was a fun adventure because you would drive all over the state hitting different dealerships to see what they had in stock. It was known at the time you would get a better deal on a car on the lot than to special order. The dealer wanted to move inventory.

I recall the Firebirds in particular were priced in 3 basic ranges. The low end models that were stripped down with 6 cylinders. The mid-range cars, like the Formulas with a moderate amount of options. And high priced models like the GTA's that usually had 350's and were decked out. Most dealerships had a fleet of the low end models, maybe 3 or so mid range models, and maybe one or two GTA's. There were significant gaps in the specs/prices deliberately. The dealership is given suggestions on how to order the cars. It was not suggested to order a lower end car so optioned out that it got even close to the next price point up.

But if you had the credit or the cash, you could go in and order whatever you wanted, paid a little more, waited a few weeks and got exactly what you wanted. But that was extremely rare at the time. Most all were ordered to the GM suggestion.

Here are 3 sample sheets showing the dealer how to option the cars. There are pages and pages of these. If your car was a dealer order, it most likely fits the outline on one of these pages. They did these for every model. These ones are the #1 sheet showing what where the models should "start". The options grow and price goes higher as you proceed through.

Stevolwevol

iTrader: (1)

I'm sorry but a tbi is not even remotely like a 2bbl carb

joee5

iTrader: (4)

Gotta be the price. Why else?

rednekwizard

And as stated before the option for a 350 in a third gen wasn't available until 87

Stevolwevol

iTrader: (1)

I seem to be in the minority here, but I think the 5 liter engine has a lot going for it.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Such as? The 305 doesn't really do anything better then the 350.

Stevolwevol

iTrader: (1)

They can be brought to life and perform well with some mods to the intake, exhaust, and valve train.

88gta3508

yes there are 350 T5 with T's out there from the factory special ordered

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Prove it. Not one, sold to the public, has ever been PROVEN to exist.

Ordered as 350/TH700R4s then converted to T5s yes. But no Factory Invoiced 350/T5s have ever been proven to exist.

okfoz

It would honestly be interesting to see if the 305/A4 cars were more likely to be lot cars, over the 350 cars which were special orders. Not sure how to check that, but its an interesting thought.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Did you hear your credibility crash and burn when you clicked 'Submit Reply'?

88gta3508

I can't prove it i did not purchase the car... you can't prove it 100% either
I was at a dealership in NY capital region area many years ago.. the salesman told me they sold a 350 T5 T top combo... a employee ordered or a relative... now I know salesman will tell you almost anything.....
but there was no gain to fabricate

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

Stop digging now...

We've heard the story countless times, yet nobody has EVER brough forward a SPID sheet with MM5 and L98 on it.

BTW, if you believe salesmen I have some oceanfront property in Arizona for sale...

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

We aren't the ones claiming to gave found the unicorn of the 3rd gen world, so we don't have to prove anything. What we can stand by is, that every single time a factory, production line built 350/T5 claim has been made, it has never been substantiated with a VIN done & RPO code proof.

Sorry, but your Salesman was just trying to get you to put $ down on something that doesn't exist, then he was going to get you to go ahead with the order when he came back with that he could not order the 350/T5 combo. Typical Salesman bait & switch tactic.

Or the person ORDERED it, but never actually GOT it. you can try to order anything you want.....Doesn't mean you'll get it.

CamaroIROC88350

iTrader: (1)

I think because 305's were cheaper on gas and on insurance to be honest with you.

DJP87Z28

Cost was the BIG factor....IROC's were expensive in the 80's. Examples:
LG4 305 carb no extra cost...saved money
LB9 305 TPI add $745
B2L 350 TPI add $1045 + REQUIRED OPTIONS that added another $1000 to the IROC. Also before you drove it the added HIGH insurance costs.

Also at that time there were NO discounts on 350 optioned cars because I bought mine in 1987. The diffence betweena 305 TPI & 350 TPI was about $4000 and in 1987 that was big bucks.

Also I still have my IROC-Z28

CamaroIROC88350

iTrader: (1)

How's it riding still and how many miles are on it if original?

CamaroIROC88350

iTrader: (1)

Having driven both a 305 and a 350 I can attest to there being better differences in the 350. After all, it does have 45 more cubic inches

DJP87Z28

108K and still like new, however I have replaced a lot of parts over the 23+ years.

CamaroIROC88350

iTrader: (1)

Hey, I have a question for you.

My car is an 88 IROC. However, throughout my last few months of tearing crap out of it I've noticed that several parts/audio parts have the year 1987 stamped on them. Such as one had April of 1987 on it. Would I be too far in being correct that my car could've been produced in 1987 but sold as an 88 IROC?

Also, your car looks pretty good for it's age. The seats look awesome too. My driver seat has a small hole in it and a tear. Pretty common on these cars. My ride has 143,xxx original miles on it which is good for it's age too. I like the Z28 mark on your air intake housing too.

DJP87Z28

1) It was common for the next model to be made in the previous year. For example, the Van Nuys plant started production on 1988 models in August of 1987.
2) Thanks for the comments

CamaroIROC88350

iTrader: (1)

That's what I was thinking, so my car is probably 23 years old since it was made in 1987.

Peace.

Jason E

This seems to be the most likely answer. Plus, add in the lack of t-tops with a 350 for most models certain years, and its more clear as to why 305s were popular.

Anyone into performance could drive a 305 and a 350 back-to-back would pick the 350...if they were lucky enough to do that. If you drive a 305, it feels good. Drive a 350, and its night and day.

I should know...I own both

Stevolwevol

iTrader: (1)

It's hard to believe that 45 cubes could make such a HUGE difference. Did the 5.7 have a better exhaust, intake, cam than the 5.0?

okfoz

The 5.7 has better exhaust (some years), Better Cam, Same intake, and I think slightly better exhaust manifolds (not much) Some years it had a better rear axle too... Of course everything being equal, Automatic trans...

Stevolwevol

iTrader: (1)

Seems to me if those were on the 305, there would not be as much performance difference. Did the lb9 have a lesser cam in a good year like 85 than the l98?

Iroctopless

The difference is undeniable. 350 is 13% bigger than a 305. That's a substantial difference. 13% on a 200hp LB9 is ~25hp! Of coarse there's many other factors involved but that's nothing to sneeze at.
Almost 1/2 second in the qtr mile and a couple of tenths in 0-60 is a seat of the pants feeling that can be felt.

Stevolwevol

iTrader: (1)

Yeah that is significant alright. More cubes equals more torque per hp. I read a lengthy article quite a while back called In Praise of the TBI, or something like that, and discussed how darn great the 305 was. I can't find it the article anymore.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

Ahh yes, the Black Echo manifesto. That article is total . The guy who wrote it was a member here back in the late 90's. He pretty much got laughed off the forum. He never once tried any of the things he was suggesting, and it's easy to see from his website that he's a crackpot. He rants and raves about whatever subject he's interested in. It's one thing to be interested in your hobby, it's another to rave like a mad man and refer to yourself in the 3rd person.

Moving on... There were some 305s (in the minority) that came with pretty much exactly the same bolt on parts as the 350. In those circumstances, even with the 5spd, those cars were still slower then the 350 cars. If you take the absolute best 305 and the worst 350, there isn't much difference but the 350 will still be faster and it'll feel better doing it.

People bought 305's because they were cheaper. End of story. When they saw 5-15hp and a significant price difference, they made the choice with their wallets. In short, people bought into the argument that a V8 is a V8, and bought a slower car because they didn't know any better, or didn't care.

Ultimately, people are ALWAYS going to try to justify that some how their 4cyl, V6, TBI, 305, whatever is better then the bigger dog. Cut the crap and the result is always the same. We know the truth, why debate it?

CamaroIROC88350

iTrader: (1)

I like your response. Good answer.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

And truth is that the Turbo TA V6, will outright SPANK even the best factory 350 TPI. It takes a good deal of $$$ for the 350 to equal the TTA V6 & then they spend like $50, turn up the boost, then the 350 is back where it started....Slow in comparison.

CDN_87IROC

I ordered a 350 IROC back in '87 from the factory and waited nearly 5 months. Wish I had purchased the GNX instead. Live and learn.

Stevolwevol

iTrader: (1)

To me it's not a debatable thing. Bigger engines w/more cubes make more power or have the potential to do so. It is just a fact. Not a theory, not a hypothesis, just a fact. I just happen to own two third gens w/5L engines, and I am happy as a clam. I probably would be an even happier clam if I had 350's but I am not willing to throw away two perfectly good engine right now.

mean88_iroc-z

i got the 305 completely for the five speed.

Mudskunk

yes the parts carry over in a lot of cases. new model production starts production before the actual year comes. i bought a new 1987 model year formula 305 in september of 1986. my 2001 TA was made september of 2000 according to its rpo sticker even tho it is model year 2001 according to the vin. most of the parts from one year to the next are identical so you can find a range of year marks on various parts. the Vin will tell what model year not necessarily the year it was made. the model year is the important thing as it determines what upgrades you have over previous years.

Jason E

Someday, I may just have to go 4 for 4 and sell my 4th gen for a G92 5.0 stick, to have one to drive back-to-back with my 350 IROC. Period magazines always seemed to like the 5.0 M5 combo better, as it was more fun, and was not thatr much slower even though it WAS ALWAYS SLOWER.

Comparing the far-more-common A4 LB9 to an L98 however? Its no contest. Both my TPI cars have 2.77 rears and are A4 cars, so I'm truly comparing motor-to-motor. The peanut cammed LB9 is no comparison to an L98. Like I said above, it feels good, and is a great "around town" motor.

Then you hop in an L98. Its the same as comparing the L98 to an LT1...there is no comparison. Period. Drew is right...top dog is top dog, and debating otherwise is silly.

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

The TTA is top dog. That "puny V6" will walk a 350 TPI any day of the week, without breaking a sweat.

TOM-1LE

Pretty sure of ourselves, are we? I have enough money that I could have bought whatever Camaro I wanted. And I absolutely did NOT want an automatic.

When I am doing laps on a road course, autocrossing, or even driving spiritedly on a twisty two-lane, an automatic L98 would not "feel better" to me than an LB9 five-speed. When I am driving, I notice the transmission a lot more than I notice the horsepower difference. That's the "feel" I am going for.

If you define performance as straight-line acceleration, then I'm sure an L98/automatic would "feel better" to you. That's fine, for you. But to me, that's a pretty one-dimensional type of performance. There are a lot of other ways to use these cars. A true driver's car should have a proper manual transmission.

tom3

We went on vacation in Florida back in 82, rented a Camaro. 305 automatic. Well satisfied with that car, wife would have taken it home. 25 mpg no matter how or where driven, plenty of power on the freeway. Hard to beat for all around driving. My IROC now just will get 21 mpg driven real easy, but sure more power - that I don't use, nice to have though.

hardon85

That is the smartest thing I have ever read on this board, ok maybe I'm biased because I feel the same way but I also would rather "drive" my car than "ride" in it if that makes sense. I have always said "A Corvette, Camaro, Firebird or even a mustang is a total waste with an automatic transmission". People think I was crazy to buy a car that was 8 hours away from me but it's a t-top 5-speed, yes it's just an RS with a 305 but it was the closest one I could find to me, so it was worth the distance (I flew there and had a blast driving it back).

On a side note I have a friend who has a 94 mustang that he has built up for drag racing, I just talked to him this last friday and asked what he had done with the car and he said "to be honest with you I'm kind of sick of it, I spend all kinds of money to try to shave tenths of seconds and I'm ready for a change and I don't think more horsepower is what I'm after, but I'm thinking about getting a t-56 for it and just drive it" so I'm sure there are more people who feel the same way.

Also and before I write this I know I will get crucified but it is my opinion that the L98 isn't all that great ANYMORE. In it's day it was definitely the cat's meow but that was between 18 and 25 years ago, and the t-5 is a pretty weak transmission according to most people on this site, so if strait line performance is all you are concerned with I would think an engine swap would be much cheaper and easier (when you consider the tuning headaches with TPI).

Drew

iTrader: (58)

As usual you missed the point. I was referring to the "In Praise of the TBI", and the debates that that some people make in defense of lesser performance variants. That doesn't really apply to the TTA because no one on this forum denies the potential of the TTA. Most V8 thirdgen owners aren't running around trying to say the TTA doesn't have any advantages over the 305.

So you accepted the smaller engine (compromise) because you wanted a 5spd and it was the most performance you could obtain linked with a manual transmission. You made a justification. It may not have been directly linked to the money, but you didn't care that you were accepting less performance because the transmission was more important to you.

When speaking in generalities there are always exceptions. The facts show that most people bought 305 cars with 700r4s, and cars that looked the part but weren't at the high end of the performance scale. Most people didn't care, they just wanted the flashy look with a V8 under the hood.

hardon85

That I think probably is the main reason. You have to remember when most people buy a brand new car the last thing on their mind is taking it to a drag strip and beating the hell out of it. Why did most people buy a Camaro or Firebird? Well probably the same reason I did, to pick up chicks and if you pick up a chick in your car she probably won't care if it's a 305 or 350. When I was 18 I bought a 1997 camaro with racing stripes and a V6 and nice rims and I can tell you I picked up a lot of chicks in that car. What did they see? Racing stripes and they automatically assumed it was a fast car but in reality they didn't care, it was just a flashy car. Now I'm not trying to disrespect females with that statement and I know (as Drew stated) there is exceptions to every rule. And as most of us can attest to the chicks get old but the thrill of driving a Camaro never does and I think that's why most of us are here today.

Today I am married with 2 kids but when the negotiation started with my wife on buying a 3rd gen she kept saying "if it was the Camaro that you had I would tell you to pick it up tomorrow but it's not and I don't think we need a 3rd car that you're only gonna drive 6 months out of the year." but lucky for me my 5 year old son in a car guy and especially a Camaro guy and my wife couldn't say no to him. Funny story real quick today he had his kindergarten conferences and they had me and my wife talk to the teacher and had him talk with an assistant and we just sat down and all of the sudden I hear him telling her "We're gonna paint our Camaro red, well actually my dad said we're not going to paint it but Rich is(the owner of the body shop where it will be painted). I chuckled because the first thing he feels needed to say to his kindergarten assistant is about "his" Camaro

Sorry once again it was a novel but I just want to say I also think it was more about it being a flashy car than being a total performance car as far as purchasing reasons.

pwillis3

I have an 87 IROC with a stock 305 and a 5 speed manual. The 305 with the 5 speed had almost the same hp and torque as a 350. I'd put mine up against a stock 350 any day of the week.

Stevolwevol

iTrader: (1)

I've never dynoed my 92 RS, but for having 2.73's it does quite well. I scratch in 2nd. I'd like to get around to changing the gears to 323:1. I think that would be a perfect perscription for this drive train.