Those of you restoring or would like to restore your Third Gen may want to read this:
05-19-2006, 08:29 PM
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Car: 1989 Wellcraft Scarab III
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Those of you restoring or would like to restore your Third Gen may want to read this:
Hi,
First, I do not work for or have any financial interest in NPD. I would support any company that would offer restoration products to us. I offer this post for those of you who are curious about what is going on with the aftermarket companies and what, apparently, they see of our market.
In January, over a three or four day period, I was in an email conversaton with the VP and C. O. O. of NPD (National Parts Depot) concerning how soon we could expect the aftermarket and restoration parts companies to start showing more interest in us.
A little insight, before going back to my thirdgen roots, I owned a ‘69 Camaro SS 350 and a ‘73 RS-Z/28. I almost exclusively used NPD as my restoration parts provider, while sometimes using both Year One and Classic Industries, too. After restoring them, I sold them so that I could get the thirdgens that I loved more. I contacted all of the before mentioned companies concerning when and if we would see a larger, wider spectrum of
restoration parts made available. It is important to remember that many of the parts we see supplied in Next Gen, etc., are becoming discontinued as they are not parts currently in production, but are NOS, etc. Classic Industries and Year One offered no information at all (IMO basically blowing the 3rd generation community off), while with NPD I was contacted
by their VP and C.O.O., Rick Schmidt. Here is the jist of what was said and what was okayed for me to post on this board:
I hope that fellow TGO members and readers will find this post useful. I had meant to post
it in February, but I had a health issue crop up that prevented it.
Thanks,
James
CLIFF NOTES:
We’re out of luck...
First, I do not work for or have any financial interest in NPD. I would support any company that would offer restoration products to us. I offer this post for those of you who are curious about what is going on with the aftermarket companies and what, apparently, they see of our market.
In January, over a three or four day period, I was in an email conversaton with the VP and C. O. O. of NPD (National Parts Depot) concerning how soon we could expect the aftermarket and restoration parts companies to start showing more interest in us.
A little insight, before going back to my thirdgen roots, I owned a ‘69 Camaro SS 350 and a ‘73 RS-Z/28. I almost exclusively used NPD as my restoration parts provider, while sometimes using both Year One and Classic Industries, too. After restoring them, I sold them so that I could get the thirdgens that I loved more. I contacted all of the before mentioned companies concerning when and if we would see a larger, wider spectrum of
restoration parts made available. It is important to remember that many of the parts we see supplied in Next Gen, etc., are becoming discontinued as they are not parts currently in production, but are NOS, etc. Classic Industries and Year One offered no information at all (IMO basically blowing the 3rd generation community off), while with NPD I was contacted
by their VP and C.O.O., Rick Schmidt. Here is the jist of what was said and what was okayed for me to post on this board:
Originally Posted by Mr. Rick Schmidt, Vice President, C.O.O. National Parts Depot (NPD)
We appreciate your past business, and your thoughts regarding 3rd & 4th gen Camaro parts. There may be a time that we move into the later generations, but I honestly do not see that time coming soon. We have too many other potential product-lines that we could do that represent far more growth and volume for our company. We realize that many of our
Camaro-faithful customers wish that we would continue quickly into the newer generations, but when making wise business decisions, we must keep our emotions in-check. If you follow the development of NPD, we've not been about simply getting as many catalogs into circulation as possible. We've been extremely meticulous in choosing lines that were good
fits, and had enough volume potential to justify and support EXTREME investments in inventory. NPD jumps into each of it's lines both feet first, stocking full and complete inventories. So when we DO publish a new catalog, it's really got to be a product line that's ready to fly, not a line that is still scrambling for traction.
We depend on our suppliers to give us insight on what years and models of cars are catching fire, or already "hot", and which ones are still just tinkering along. Thus far, the suppliers of certain basic automotive necessities in any/all restorations simply shake their heads and say "not yet, still minor-league" when I bring up the subject of 3rd gen Camaro. If you think about it, there's a reason that only a small handful of companies are catering to 3rd-gen right now. The market is only large enough for a few players. If NPD dived in, it would divide the existing pie into slices too thin for anybody to make money at. This may well change, and we may well start planning for 3rd and 4th gen Camaros in the not-so-distant future. But we'll need to see market values of the cars increase a bit (people tend to not invest a lot
of $$ in restoration parts, when the end-product is worth so little, and represents such a net-loss for a working household), and actual full-boat nut & bolt restoration activity being more prominent at shows. For now, you see low-mileage original 3rd gens, and you see fixed-up and customized and modified 3rd gens, but you sure don't see many RESTORED 3rd gens at Camaro shows. That is a strong indicator that the restoration activity (where we get our revenue from) is still light. In the mid-to-late 80's sales of restoration parts for 2nd-gen Camaros was similarly slow. Today, 2nd-gen almost exceeds that of 1st-gen. Whether or not the 3rd and 4th gen will rise to the occasion still remains to be seen. Not as many were built, and the early 80's low-power cars simply do not have much resale value or
collectible status. So, that's the best answer I can give you for now.
Please understand that my comments in no way are intended as a "slight" toward the 3rd gen cars, 3rd gen community or the businesses that cater to them. It's just a little insight into what it takes for a product line to attract us, and to justify the 7-figure investment it takes to bring one on-line the right way. As it is, our current growth within existing lines has been
difficult to stay ahead of. Projects "in the works" are Chevy Truck, Nova, Pontiac Tempest/GTO, and Olds Cutlass. All of these are larger-volume markets than 3rd-gen f-body, and they already share many chassis and structural pieces with our current lineups, making them far more cost-effective and "natural" to add. Fox and SN95 Mustang, and 3rd and 4th gen F-body, are catalogs that we also plan to develop, but we're carefully gauging exactly "when" those cars will truly start being RESTORED nut & bolt, not just "fixed-up". There's a big difference. Sorry I rambled on for so long, but sometimes these email answers allow me to get my own thoughts straight!!! Best of luck with your 3rd gens, and if you ever dabble back into an earlier Camaro, we're here to help.
Thanks!!
Rick Schmidt
Vice President, C.O.O. NPD
Camaro-faithful customers wish that we would continue quickly into the newer generations, but when making wise business decisions, we must keep our emotions in-check. If you follow the development of NPD, we've not been about simply getting as many catalogs into circulation as possible. We've been extremely meticulous in choosing lines that were good
fits, and had enough volume potential to justify and support EXTREME investments in inventory. NPD jumps into each of it's lines both feet first, stocking full and complete inventories. So when we DO publish a new catalog, it's really got to be a product line that's ready to fly, not a line that is still scrambling for traction.
We depend on our suppliers to give us insight on what years and models of cars are catching fire, or already "hot", and which ones are still just tinkering along. Thus far, the suppliers of certain basic automotive necessities in any/all restorations simply shake their heads and say "not yet, still minor-league" when I bring up the subject of 3rd gen Camaro. If you think about it, there's a reason that only a small handful of companies are catering to 3rd-gen right now. The market is only large enough for a few players. If NPD dived in, it would divide the existing pie into slices too thin for anybody to make money at. This may well change, and we may well start planning for 3rd and 4th gen Camaros in the not-so-distant future. But we'll need to see market values of the cars increase a bit (people tend to not invest a lot
of $$ in restoration parts, when the end-product is worth so little, and represents such a net-loss for a working household), and actual full-boat nut & bolt restoration activity being more prominent at shows. For now, you see low-mileage original 3rd gens, and you see fixed-up and customized and modified 3rd gens, but you sure don't see many RESTORED 3rd gens at Camaro shows. That is a strong indicator that the restoration activity (where we get our revenue from) is still light. In the mid-to-late 80's sales of restoration parts for 2nd-gen Camaros was similarly slow. Today, 2nd-gen almost exceeds that of 1st-gen. Whether or not the 3rd and 4th gen will rise to the occasion still remains to be seen. Not as many were built, and the early 80's low-power cars simply do not have much resale value or
collectible status. So, that's the best answer I can give you for now.
Please understand that my comments in no way are intended as a "slight" toward the 3rd gen cars, 3rd gen community or the businesses that cater to them. It's just a little insight into what it takes for a product line to attract us, and to justify the 7-figure investment it takes to bring one on-line the right way. As it is, our current growth within existing lines has been
difficult to stay ahead of. Projects "in the works" are Chevy Truck, Nova, Pontiac Tempest/GTO, and Olds Cutlass. All of these are larger-volume markets than 3rd-gen f-body, and they already share many chassis and structural pieces with our current lineups, making them far more cost-effective and "natural" to add. Fox and SN95 Mustang, and 3rd and 4th gen F-body, are catalogs that we also plan to develop, but we're carefully gauging exactly "when" those cars will truly start being RESTORED nut & bolt, not just "fixed-up". There's a big difference. Sorry I rambled on for so long, but sometimes these email answers allow me to get my own thoughts straight!!! Best of luck with your 3rd gens, and if you ever dabble back into an earlier Camaro, we're here to help.
Thanks!!
Rick Schmidt
Vice President, C.O.O. NPD
it in February, but I had a health issue crop up that prevented it.
Thanks,
James
CLIFF NOTES:
We’re out of luck...
05-19-2006, 09:29 PM
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That sounds about right.
When the prices of these thirdgens rise up enough, you will be surprised how many places will jump on the bandwagon.
Decals and emblems are always the first to be brought out as repros. It even happened with the second gens.
I say give it time.
As examples, the 1989 20th Anniversary Turbo Trans Ams.
Emblems dried up. A couple of places made them as repros. No one was willing to make hoses for them. A place got them done, now Gates has them thru NAPA. Much cheaper.
I think it will happen, just not as fast as we want.
George
When the prices of these thirdgens rise up enough, you will be surprised how many places will jump on the bandwagon.
Decals and emblems are always the first to be brought out as repros. It even happened with the second gens.
I say give it time.
As examples, the 1989 20th Anniversary Turbo Trans Ams.
Emblems dried up. A couple of places made them as repros. No one was willing to make hoses for them. A place got them done, now Gates has them thru NAPA. Much cheaper.
I think it will happen, just not as fast as we want.
George
05-19-2006, 09:46 PM
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Ah-ha. I could have told you that outcome. 
What you'll see for products first are the ones that dry up and are needed for common to semi-common repairs. Sad but true, but the costs for making those production runs does need to come from somewhere.
It'll happen though, I went through almost a half-dozen second gens before I started messing with thirdgens. Back then it was't too hard to find parts, not too easy either, but it certainly wasn't as easy as it is now.
Cliff notes: Time will cure this.
What you'll see for products first are the ones that dry up and are needed for common to semi-common repairs. Sad but true, but the costs for making those production runs does need to come from somewhere.
It'll happen though, I went through almost a half-dozen second gens before I started messing with thirdgens. Back then it was't too hard to find parts, not too easy either, but it certainly wasn't as easy as it is now.
Cliff notes: Time will cure this.
05-19-2006, 09:49 PM
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I think you will see more people putting big bucks into thirdgens when we get out kids out of college. Thats about 20 more years for me! But for others, maybe 5-10.
05-19-2006, 10:29 PM
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Even though the oldest third gen is only 24 years old, there are still a bunch on the road, and a bunch in the JY. My local scrap metal place gets 3 a week and all they care about is the scrap metal, I try to get everything I can but I have too little time and not enough dough. I see once in a blue moon a second gen and never a first gen so this should tell you something.
05-19-2006, 10:29 PM
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Based on that response, I'd say that is a company I would love to give business to and support. If a highly placed officer of the company takes the time to craft that response to an individual query, then the company must be run by good people, and I like to support good people.
Thanks for sharing that, very informative.
Thanks for sharing that, very informative.
05-19-2006, 11:30 PM
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Car: 1989 Wellcraft Scarab III
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Axle/Gears: Twin Mercruiser Bravo I's
Originally Posted by Red Devil
Ah-ha. I could have told you that outcome.
What you'll see for products first are the ones that dry up and are needed for common to semi-common repairs. Sad but true, but the costs for making those production runs does need to come from somewhere.
It'll happen though, I went through almost a half-dozen second gens before I started messing with thirdgens. Back then it was't too hard to find parts, not too easy either, but it certainly wasn't as easy as it is now.
Cliff notes: Time will cure this.
What you'll see for products first are the ones that dry up and are needed for common to semi-common repairs. Sad but true, but the costs for making those production runs does need to come from somewhere.
It'll happen though, I went through almost a half-dozen second gens before I started messing with thirdgens. Back then it was't too hard to find parts, not too easy either, but it certainly wasn't as easy as it is now.
Cliff notes: Time will cure this.
Originally Posted by Bull
Based on that response, I'd say that is a company I would love to give business to and support. If a highly placed officer of the company takes the time to craft that response to an individual query, then the company must be run by good people, and I like to support good people.
Thanks for sharing that, very informative.
Thanks for sharing that, very informative.
-James
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05-20-2006, 01:18 AM
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Car: '84 Trans Am
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To be honest, I was able to get our thirdgen about 10 - 15 years earlier than I thought I would be able to. The key for owners of thirdgens is to "stay the course" of hanging on to our cars even though we are the minority. Our thirdgens are just now startiung to appreciate, and I think that when people realize how few are left that have not been thrashed out or sent to the wrecking ball in the sky, we will see a sizable jump in our investments. I would not worry, the companys will come around, it just has to be ok'ed by the bean counters first.My 
05-20-2006, 02:21 AM
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Car: '83 Berli, '84 Berli, '84 Z28 HO
Engine: L69, LG4, L69
Transmission: TH700-R4, TH700-R4, T-5
Axle/Gears: 3.08, 3.08, 3.73 Posi
Yay for mine.. I have an 83 and two 84's and the value of them is actually going up now.. it is worth 2 times as much as a car made in 1998 (i can not remember which one it was.. but it was a common one) but i am just happy to see the values finally start increasing.. they will probably start making the repo parts once the value of the car reaches about 3/4 of what it was to begin with... maybe 100% of what it was to begin with. although i do not think that was a boat load even for a brand spanking new one in 83....
05-20-2006, 02:43 AM
#10
If he knew what he was talking about he would have known that Third Gens have been and are still increasing in value. (mint/top model/lower mileage/rare cars and such) As long as Classic Industries and Next Gen has alot of Third Gen stuff it's fine, there seems to be more for us with each new issue.
05-20-2006, 09:57 AM
#11
The response was pretty cool, thanks for posting for the rest of us to enjoy. I am wondering some things though... I cant tell if their COO is just waiting for the market to come around, or if he is like every other old muscle car guy I see at car shows around here that views any Thirdgen as an underpowered red-headed stepchild that is worthless compared to the "muscle era" cars. I also wonder why they cant jump onto the market but with moderation. There is not a need for "nut & bolt" restorations on many of these cars yet. most of us just need dash pads, door panels, correct seat covers, correct replacement stock exhaust parts, etc. We dont need seat belt bolts, and little plastic doo-dads because junk yards are still full of them. We just need the big stuff and we can hit the boneyards for the rest. I dont understand why no one sees that. There are tons of Thirdgens out there owned by enthusiasts that just need the big stuff, I am sure there is money to be made. Look at the volume of thirdgen stuff sold on here and on e-bay. There is money to be made with us in my opinion.
05-20-2006, 10:30 AM
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You guys don't spend any time in the classifieds section huh? 
Thirdgenners are some of the cheapest people around, bar none. They try and spend less than even the riicers.
Until a significant amount of owners of thirdgens are of the type willing to spend the money, you won't see anyone embrace the thirdgen aftermarket. It would be economic suicide for their business.
The guy knows exactly what he's talking about. He gets to see the industry sales in context to the platform. He has a much better grasp than any of us with regard to the potential market for any given product. If I were to guess the timeline? I'd say between 5-10 years. It will depend heavily on what crops up at shows etc.
As far as the alleged appreciation of the thirdgen market (we'll pass over said appreciation contextual to other factors for now)... reflect the thirdgen appreciation as compared to say a first or second gen. Compare it, and (VERY important) the willingness to spend money, to say... the 'vette crowd. They had stuff for the C3s just after the C4s came out. Likewise with the C4s when the C5s came out. Thirdgenners are not willing to spend the kind of money necessary to support an aftermarket that y'all want.
Pay attention to what he says. Much like that tail light thread, the reality of the market is going to dictate what gets done as opposed to a few dozen die-hard fans of the platform that congregate on one internet site. In order to stay in business you have to be able to make money. In our market, you probably won't be able to cover your costs for any part that you decide to make, never mind actually make some money at it.
Cliff notes: As I said before, time will cure this.
Thirdgenners are some of the cheapest people around, bar none. They try and spend less than even the riicers.Until a significant amount of owners of thirdgens are of the type willing to spend the money, you won't see anyone embrace the thirdgen aftermarket. It would be economic suicide for their business.
The guy knows exactly what he's talking about. He gets to see the industry sales in context to the platform. He has a much better grasp than any of us with regard to the potential market for any given product. If I were to guess the timeline? I'd say between 5-10 years. It will depend heavily on what crops up at shows etc.
...We depend on our suppliers to give us insight on what years and models of cars are catching fire, or already "hot", and which ones are still just tinkering along. Thus far, the suppliers of certain basic automotive necessities in any/all restorations simply shake their heads and say "not yet, still minor-league" when I bring up the subject of 3rd gen Camaro. ...
If you think about it, there's a reason that only a small handful of companies are catering to 3rd-gen right now. The market is only large enough for a few players. If NPD dived in, it would divide the existing pie into slices too thin for anybody to make money at...
Cliff notes: As I said before, time will cure this.
05-20-2006, 02:01 PM
#13
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Car: 1989 Wellcraft Scarab III
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Originally Posted by 1MeanZ
The response was pretty cool, thanks for posting for the rest of us to enjoy. I am wondering some things though... I cant tell if their COO is just waiting for the market to come around, or if he is like every other old muscle car guy I see at car shows around here that views any Thirdgen as an underpowered red-headed stepchild that is worthless compared to the "muscle era" cars. I also wonder why they cant jump onto the market but with moderation. There is not a need for "nut & bolt" restorations on many of these cars yet. most of us just need dash pads, door panels, correct seat covers, correct replacement stock exhaust parts, etc. We dont need seat belt bolts, and little plastic doo-dads because junk yards are still full of them. We just need the big stuff and we can hit the boneyards for the rest. I dont understand why no one sees that. There are tons of Thirdgens out there owned by enthusiasts that just need the big stuff, I am sure there is money to be made. Look at the volume of thirdgen stuff sold on here and on e-bay. There is money to be made with us in my opinion.
It's, IMO, EXTREMELY important to remember that the parts that are in NEXT GEN catalogs are largely parts that are old stock. They run out and become discontinued. And then they will remain unavailable until the market that Mr. Schmidt speaks of decides to produce for us. They haven't and they aren't going to anytime as soon as some of us would like. Until these aftermarket people start producing for us, we will find less and less parts available. An example, in my case, is I went to NEXT GEN to buy a new leather wrapped airbag steering wheel for '90-'92 Camaro's. These are beginning to wear out on many '90-'92 Camaro's. I "backordered" the part from them only to find out that they have discontinued. Now, they are available and I found another place that has the old stock stuff....but they admitted they, too, only had a handful of them left. No one makes them and no one will for quite some time and that is the way it will be with many of our parts if you're doing an actual full blown restoration. I got the impression that we were a decade away, fwiw.
I also did not get the impression that he was treating 3rd gens as "red headed stepchildren", as RD has pointed out, this guy is a businessman who would jump on any business opportunity that would be profitable. Other suppliers are, and see things, the same way, and unfortunately for people like us (certainly myself anyway) we are the few and the proud and not profitable enough currently.
The one other thing I would like to say, again, is that he was unaware of this site at the beginning of our conversations but took a great deal of interest in it when I pointed it out. He was particularly impressed with the traffic generated at TGO and the History and Restoration board. While, like RD has pointed out far better than myself, it won't change things in the immediate future, I feel certain that when he is chatting with his suppliers he likely will or already has pointed out this site. That can be a good thing, and a step into the positive direction, IMO.
Cliff Notes: Develop a longer attention span and read the thread.
05-20-2006, 02:35 PM
#14
Originally Posted by 1MeanZ
There is not a need for "nut & bolt" restorations on many of these cars yet. most of us just need dash pads, door panels, correct seat covers, correct replacement stock exhaust parts, etc. We dont need seat belt bolts, and little plastic doo-dads because junk yards are still full of them. We just need the big stuff and we can hit the boneyards for the rest. I dont understand why no one sees that.
I'm glad to see that Rick Schmidt took the time and effort to give a response and if they ever do start making restoration parts in the future I will highly consider purchasing from them. I couldn't care less how much these cars will be worth in the future but I do want to see a time where parts are readily available.
Just for fun. 99% of the dash switches on '82-'84 Firebirds look like this. I wish there were new ones. (Not my car BTW)
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05-20-2006, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by 82FirebirdTA
I couldn't care less how much these cars will be worth in the future but I do want to see a time where parts are readily available.
Last edited by 92 Formula; 05-20-2006 at 03:17 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
05-20-2006, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by 82FirebirdTA
I agree. I'd love to see some wear and tear items being reproduced. Stuff like seat belts and steering wheels. The leather steering wheel on my Daytona 500 T/A is worn out but I can't find one anywhere. None of the seat covers or door panels available are correct. The defrost/hatch etc... swtiches for '82-'84 cars are non existant and the list goes on. Everyone that has these parts NOS refuses to sell them.
I'm glad to see that Rick Schmidt took the time and effort to give a response and if they ever do start making restoration parts in the future I will highly consider purchasing from them. I couldn't care less how much these cars will be worth in the future but I do want to see a time where parts are readily available.
Just for fun. 99% of the dash switches on '82-'84 Firebirds look like this. I wish there were new ones. (Not my car BTW)
I'm glad to see that Rick Schmidt took the time and effort to give a response and if they ever do start making restoration parts in the future I will highly consider purchasing from them. I couldn't care less how much these cars will be worth in the future but I do want to see a time where parts are readily available.
Just for fun. 99% of the dash switches on '82-'84 Firebirds look like this. I wish there were new ones. (Not my car BTW)
05-20-2006, 07:16 PM
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When I came across the deal on my '91 Z with the L98, I thought I got an OK deal (I paid $500 with it not running, replaced fuel pump and set valve lash, now it runs great) until I started looking on-line and on autotrader. I can remember a few years ago when I started looking at F-bodies that the 3rd gens were all over the place for $600 to $1000. Looking around now, the cheapest '91 that I could find was $1800 and it didn't run and needed lots of body work. So I'd say that the price for these is on the increase. One good thing about that is the fact that people who buy them will be more willing to shell out the $$$$ to restore them correctly instead of cheaply. I am a prime example. I am 31 years old and just bought my first daily driver 3rd gen (my wife has an '85, but we are stripping it for a drag car). It needs a lot of little stuff to look brand new and I am willing to pay for the parts if they are available. I don't think I'm alone either. I think a few years, there'll be enough of a market to support these cars. I called my local junk yard and they have sold every F-body from 82-92 that they had. So they are becoming more popular to restore. Just my .02......
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05-21-2006, 08:01 AM
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Alex,
Don't think that there are all the parts avalible for the first and second gens.
More of them made than for the third gens for sure though.
You still can't get a repro second gen Trans Am steering wheel from anyone. There are a couple of guys making leather steering wheels for them, but only the 10th Anniversary Trans Am got them, and in silver/grey, the others were foam.
Yes, there are NOS ones laying around, and most people sell them as NOS without the box, and when they get them, they are not correct. They are leather wrapped old wheels.
They are completely out of the GTA steering wheels with the radio controls. I wish I had gotten one myself. When they show up, big $$$. But, the same is true with the second gens. I had one years ago, sold it for good money, but now they are really big $$$. I should have kept it for my collection of cars!
Of coarse, I also should have kept my 455 HO alum intake NOS in the box too!
It is now sitting on a '74 455 SD in Sacto, Calif.!
Later,
George
Don't think that there are all the parts avalible for the first and second gens.
More of them made than for the third gens for sure though.
You still can't get a repro second gen Trans Am steering wheel from anyone. There are a couple of guys making leather steering wheels for them, but only the 10th Anniversary Trans Am got them, and in silver/grey, the others were foam.
Yes, there are NOS ones laying around, and most people sell them as NOS without the box, and when they get them, they are not correct. They are leather wrapped old wheels.
They are completely out of the GTA steering wheels with the radio controls. I wish I had gotten one myself. When they show up, big $$$. But, the same is true with the second gens. I had one years ago, sold it for good money, but now they are really big $$$. I should have kept it for my collection of cars!
Of coarse, I also should have kept my 455 HO alum intake NOS in the box too!
It is now sitting on a '74 455 SD in Sacto, Calif.!
Later,
George
05-22-2006, 05:18 PM
#20
Seems like there's a lot of enthusiasm here... the only problem is that it's not real. Or it isn't enough to matter.
Like the guy at NPD says in his very polite email... There isn't a market for anything thirdgen. It's not because there aren't a lot of them out there, its because no one is spending money on them. There aren't enough thirdgen enthusiasts that have money to spend to support a healthy aftermarket. At least not for restoration parts... It seems that the big stupid fiberglass hood companies are still making good profits off thirdgen owners.
Until you yourself make an investment and an effort to provide parts and service to the thirdgen enthusiast community, you don't really have a frame of reference. I've offered parts, pieces, and complete cars for sale for the last 10 years. It's gotten more and more difficult in the last few years. Even on Ebay thirdgen parts don't sell like they used to. Thirdgen parts are completely worthless, I can't see why anyone would put new parts into production when the stuff that is already available doesn't sell.
Like the guy at NPD says in his very polite email... There isn't a market for anything thirdgen. It's not because there aren't a lot of them out there, its because no one is spending money on them. There aren't enough thirdgen enthusiasts that have money to spend to support a healthy aftermarket. At least not for restoration parts... It seems that the big stupid fiberglass hood companies are still making good profits off thirdgen owners.
Until you yourself make an investment and an effort to provide parts and service to the thirdgen enthusiast community, you don't really have a frame of reference. I've offered parts, pieces, and complete cars for sale for the last 10 years. It's gotten more and more difficult in the last few years. Even on Ebay thirdgen parts don't sell like they used to. Thirdgen parts are completely worthless, I can't see why anyone would put new parts into production when the stuff that is already available doesn't sell.
05-22-2006, 08:42 PM
#21
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Car: Sold my Thirdgens, want another one
Engine: L98/TPI
Transmission: 5-speed
Axle/Gears: 3.45
i dont care if there ever is a good "market" for thirdgens. im 20 years old and ive owned 2 3rd gen camaros ('90 and 91 RS). i love them. im not like most of my peers who drive civics and other *****-mobiles. i drive a thirdgen cause thats what i like, not so i can make a profit 10-15 years from now. so let the companies do what they want, cause on a sunny day, im gonna keep dropping the t-tops.
Last edited by 91sleeperRS; 05-22-2006 at 08:44 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
05-22-2006, 11:04 PM
#22
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Car: 1983 Trans Am
Engine: L69 5.0L HO
Transmission: Manual
Axle/Gears: 3.73
Unfortunately, that sounds about right. I have been collecting parts for my 82 Trans Am for the past couple years. When I decided I was going to restore it I had difficulties finding the part I needed when I needed him. So I decided it would be better to get most the parts I needed first then began the restoration. If I keep it for about 30 years I may break even but I agree that the money just isn't out there to support a large company like NPD entering the third gen market.
There are parts for our cars out there but you really have to look for them. Most of my parts have come from eBay, wrecking yards and specialty retailers. It could be worse, I hear trying to restore anything from AMC is challenging! I remember AMC… I must be getting old.
There are parts for our cars out there but you really have to look for them. Most of my parts have come from eBay, wrecking yards and specialty retailers. It could be worse, I hear trying to restore anything from AMC is challenging! I remember AMC… I must be getting old.
05-23-2006, 07:16 AM
#23
Originally Posted by wildjeff
It could be worse, I hear trying to restore anything from AMC is challenging! I remember AMC… I must be getting old.
05-23-2006, 07:49 AM
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It's really nice to see NPD coming out and letting us know why they haven't produced parts for these cars - I think it takes big stones to say what we all know out loud - knowing that no matter what is said, someone will turn it around and make them the bad guys.
Personally, I think its a good thing that prices are where they are now, even though it does make me pause a little bit when I look at what I'm spending on my 3rd gen, and compare it to the current prices of 4th gens and c4 vettes even. I like my car, even if there are newer/faster/better handling cars out there. I think this is the first step towards them truly being recognized as a classic, timeless design - in it's own way, as classic and timeless as the tri-five chevys.
Just a few days ago, I read a post in another forum from a 3rd gen'er who said that it was cheaper to buy complete cars and snag parts from them, than to just go out and buy the parts - even used. This is part of the process, the "herd" of 3rd gen is being "pruned down" by those seeking the best of the best. Right now *great* restorable cars are being crushed because the values have dropped to below scrap value. Heck, I've done it myself - a few years ago I was driving a 6cylinder firebird with a really tired interior that was starting to rust around the edges. I was working at a dealer at the time, and I got a deal on a buick that was loaded to the gills and in perfect shape. Since I was living in an apartment, I had no place to store the 'bird, so off it went, to the boneyard... as much as I'd love to buy a farm and "plant" 20 or 30 old 3rd gens there and save them for a rainy day, that isn't going to happen - the carnage will continue until the values go up...
Personally, I think its a good thing that prices are where they are now, even though it does make me pause a little bit when I look at what I'm spending on my 3rd gen, and compare it to the current prices of 4th gens and c4 vettes even. I like my car, even if there are newer/faster/better handling cars out there. I think this is the first step towards them truly being recognized as a classic, timeless design - in it's own way, as classic and timeless as the tri-five chevys.
Just a few days ago, I read a post in another forum from a 3rd gen'er who said that it was cheaper to buy complete cars and snag parts from them, than to just go out and buy the parts - even used. This is part of the process, the "herd" of 3rd gen is being "pruned down" by those seeking the best of the best. Right now *great* restorable cars are being crushed because the values have dropped to below scrap value. Heck, I've done it myself - a few years ago I was driving a 6cylinder firebird with a really tired interior that was starting to rust around the edges. I was working at a dealer at the time, and I got a deal on a buick that was loaded to the gills and in perfect shape. Since I was living in an apartment, I had no place to store the 'bird, so off it went, to the boneyard... as much as I'd love to buy a farm and "plant" 20 or 30 old 3rd gens there and save them for a rainy day, that isn't going to happen - the carnage will continue until the values go up...
Last edited by irocalot; 05-23-2006 at 07:54 AM.
05-23-2006, 07:55 AM
#25
Originally Posted by IROCZTWENTYGR8
If he knew what he was talking about he would have known that Third Gens have been and are still increasing in value. (mint/top model/lower mileage/rare cars and such) As long as Classic Industries and Next Gen has alot of Third Gen stuff it's fine, there seems to be more for us with each new issue.
Just because early IROCs values doubled from $2500 to $5k over the last couple years doesn't mean that many people are ready to spend $20k or $30k+ to restore them yet.
The point he was making is that a person is more likely to drop $30k into a 69 Camaro that'll be worth somewhere between $20-40k when he's done than he would be to drop $30k into a Camaro that would barely fetch $10k when he's done. Yes, it's a labor of love for a lot of us, but most people can more easily justify restoring a car that can get most or all of their investment back if it was necessary.
Another thing working against us is that as already mentioned, thirdgenners are amazingly cheap bastards. Not many people around here are willing to pay $300 for a new dash pad, but the firstgen crowd doesn't think twice about it. Until the value of these cars puts them out of reach for high school kids, the thirdgen community as a whole is going to continue to have a "cheap bastard" reputation that frankly, is well deserved.
Cliff's notes: Yes, thirdgen values are going up, but when compared to anything else, they still aren't worth squat.
05-23-2006, 12:20 PM
#26
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If this guy is aware of this board, then he's aware that there are still way too many owners willing to toss good, dependable, still working parts, for aftermarket, non stock, high performance parts. I see only a few members that prefer to keep their cars original. It seems their focus is on original looking parts. Once people start to want their cars to be back to original condition, that's when they'll start producing parts (IMO).
05-23-2006, 09:17 PM
#27
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My sentiments exactly. I don't invest in cars, I enjoy them. If their value rises, too, well great...but that's not why I own thirdgens.
I thought it a little ironic the NPD guy calling the 80's Camaro's 'low-power' - compared to those powerhouses of the late 70's
...in fact with the exception of a few oddball early 2gen variants, I'd bet the best IROC's from the 1980's could run head-to-head with the upper crust of the 2gen Camaros...
05-24-2006, 07:41 PM
#28
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When I first started getting into Camaros, I can remember there being very few 2nd gen parts out there (I had a couple of 80s). I had to search the junkyards and swap meets for parts. (Yes, this was way way before the internet. I know I am old). Now the market has really become saturated with 2nd gen parts. Give it a few more years, and they will catch on. The youngest model needs to be about 20 before interest picks up, IMO. So in 2012 repro parts should be ramping up. Just my thoughts.
05-26-2006, 12:17 AM
#29
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I know why they are not making parts, but to use the reason "no one is restoring them" is a cop out and just a lie.
No one is doing a full resto because there are fewer and fewer good parts for them. Like someone else said, it is cheaper to buy a good-decent roller just for the parts. But for the parts I am looking for, I would need to find a car with a perfect interior -yeah that is gonna happen- (that happens to be a full power GTA WS6 or Camaro Z to get everything) of which there are only two GTA's in 4 counties where I live. And yes, I own one of them. And no, the other is not a WS6 either.
Only 5 other thirdgen's I have seen are in 'good' shape. While yes mine needs a door thanks to a previous owner loving bondo, it is still in much better shape than 97% of the other thirds I have seen.
I am sorry but this more than hacks me off cause I am actually TRING to restore mine.
Good and decent parts where I live is a joke, so everything has to be online, and you take the risks, you have no other choice.
I would love to get ALL the CORRECT interior parts including new seat covers, either new motors or rebuild the stock power seat function motors.
You can get most the generic stuff fine online(headliners, most of the switches, ect), but the actual 'guts' you take your chances...
No one is doing a full resto because there are fewer and fewer good parts for them. Like someone else said, it is cheaper to buy a good-decent roller just for the parts. But for the parts I am looking for, I would need to find a car with a perfect interior -yeah that is gonna happen- (that happens to be a full power GTA WS6 or Camaro Z to get everything) of which there are only two GTA's in 4 counties where I live. And yes, I own one of them. And no, the other is not a WS6 either.
Only 5 other thirdgen's I have seen are in 'good' shape. While yes mine needs a door thanks to a previous owner loving bondo, it is still in much better shape than 97% of the other thirds I have seen.
I am sorry but this more than hacks me off cause I am actually TRING to restore mine.
Good and decent parts where I live is a joke, so everything has to be online, and you take the risks, you have no other choice.
I would love to get ALL the CORRECT interior parts including new seat covers, either new motors or rebuild the stock power seat function motors.
You can get most the generic stuff fine online(headliners, most of the switches, ect), but the actual 'guts' you take your chances...
05-26-2006, 11:32 AM
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Car: 92RS 25th Anniv./88 IROC Z28 Vert
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A light at the end of the tunnel
Originally Posted by plndtx
I think you will see more people putting big bucks into thirdgens when we get out kids out of college. Thats about 20 more years for me! But for others, maybe 5-10.
Last edited by 86NiteRider; 05-27-2006 at 07:24 AM.
05-26-2006, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by AmorgetRS
Dude, all GTAs are WS6s...
I have not talked to the guy all that much, but it is a 305 TPI, it may just be a rebadged Aero package firebird...
05-26-2006, 12:27 PM
#33
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Car: 96 GMC, 82 camaro 69 camaro
Engine: 6.5L Turbo, 406, 406
Transmission: 4L80E, th350, powerglide
Axle/Gears: 3.73 / 3.70 /4.56
I didn't see anyone mention it but.Year one has a far amount of 3rd gen parts if I missed someones posting it sorry
05-26-2006, 04:13 PM
#34
Originally Posted by V6sucker
well his dash does not have the "performance package" badge on it or the WS6 disk's on the wheel caps either...
I have not talked to the guy all that much, but it is a 305 TPI, it may just be a rebadged Aero package firebird...
I have not talked to the guy all that much, but it is a 305 TPI, it may just be a rebadged Aero package firebird...
THE GTA SOURCE PAGE - THE HOME For The Trans Am GTA Enthusiast....
I've seen you give out the wrong information on GTAs 3 times now (fender vents, this post, and the TTAs not being GTAs)
05-26-2006, 04:39 PM
#35
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Car: 1988 GTA
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It's really about supply and demand. 1st and 2nd gens are in big demand now with less supply these days. Along with early Chevelle's,GTO's,Cutlass's, Mustangs, Cuda's, Chargerss etc.... People are willing to spend $$ on them and lots of it...I like the third gen as much as the next guy, but they just don't bring any money or respect for the most part right now and that's what is needed for more parts. My 2nd gen was the same way for years. Even looking thorugh Ebay or the classifieds here you see some real nice cars that just don't really sell. We have another 10 years before we really get in the game. By then less cars will be around or decent ones. 2nd gen prices will be stupid like first gen prices so people will migrate to the third gen for it's affordability. I drive a pretty nice Black GTA with a procharger. So it's not slow and handles well. Take it to a local show though, or even a crusie and most just shy thier heads away. I get no respect. "Oh. It's an 80 's car. " Once that mentality goes away then things will pick up. It's really to bad because the third gen is a great platform to work off of. They handle well and are somewhat easy to work on once all of the emissions stuff is out of the way. In a way they were some of the first real protouring cars. So I say buy what you need now or what you will need in the future even if you don't need now because soon the parts just won't be there. Stock up.
05-26-2006, 04:50 PM
#36
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^^^ agreed. I went to the Trans Am Nationals in Ohio for the firs time in 4 years last summer and was appalled at the lack of third-gen cars. I went every year from 1995-2001 and there were always a number of great looking third gens. What's interesting, though, is those years I went (particularly the late 90s) second gens were very low in attendance. Lots of thirds, fourths and a good showing of first-gens but very few seconds. Now, ten years later the show is nearly all second and fourth generation. Give it at least another ten years. A second-gen I wanted (1971 Lucerne Blue T/A) ten years ago was selling for $6,600 bucks there. It was in good shape with decent miles and ran well. That same car in the same condition today would bring at least twice that if not three times that. ThirdGens will have their day, it's just a long way off at this point.
05-26-2006, 05:39 PM
#37
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One other thing to remember is,
That not all repro parts are exact matches.
Heck, even GM has changed the part numbers on cars when the one part goes discontinued.
Most things like decals and emblems are always different from stock GM stuff. If you pay attention at shows and such, you will be able to tell.
Most decals are one piece, let striping either comes in rolls, or cut outs, or two pieces! heck, even my repro hood bird on my '79 TA uses the wrong color in it! Exact my a*s!
You gonna restore a car, try to use NOS GM parts. It takes time yes to find/get, but read even some second gen restores, the people/show desideds to use original, cause the repro is so far off!
I try NOS stuff first! Heck, the NOS GM stuff goes for such high $$$, that alot of people make a killing selling it. And not using it on their restores.
Something to think about,
George
That not all repro parts are exact matches.
Heck, even GM has changed the part numbers on cars when the one part goes discontinued.
Most things like decals and emblems are always different from stock GM stuff. If you pay attention at shows and such, you will be able to tell.
Most decals are one piece, let striping either comes in rolls, or cut outs, or two pieces! heck, even my repro hood bird on my '79 TA uses the wrong color in it! Exact my a*s!
You gonna restore a car, try to use NOS GM parts. It takes time yes to find/get, but read even some second gen restores, the people/show desideds to use original, cause the repro is so far off!
I try NOS stuff first! Heck, the NOS GM stuff goes for such high $$$, that alot of people make a killing selling it. And not using it on their restores.
Something to think about,
George
05-26-2006, 05:57 PM
#38
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Car: 1983 Trans Am
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I buy NOS when ever I can, and pay a lot for it. I bought some NOS wheel caps for my ’82 T/A and they where not cheap. Not as much as 3rdgenparts sells them for, but still. WOW.
Classic industries does have a bunch of stuff for 85-92 but not as much for 82-84.
Classic industries does have a bunch of stuff for 85-92 but not as much for 82-84.
05-28-2006, 09:35 AM
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05-28-2006, 10:58 AM
#40
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Originally Posted by AmorgetRS
You seriously need to spend some time over at
THE GTA SOURCE PAGE - THE HOME For The Trans Am GTA Enthusiast....
I've seen you give out the wrong information on GTAs 3 times now (fender vents, this post, and the TTAs not being GTAs)
THE GTA SOURCE PAGE - THE HOME For The Trans Am GTA Enthusiast....
I've seen you give out the wrong information on GTAs 3 times now (fender vents, this post, and the TTAs not being GTAs)
(1) I corrected myself on the vents. For some reason I thought mine had them, I was wrong, and I admitted and corrected myself on that.
Try reading that here in this thread.
(3) Also read what I said about the TTA's.
I said they were not BADGED as GTA's. I DID SAY they shared the same performance parts. And from what I have read, any car could have gotten the parts, but unless it was BADGED as a GTA, it is not a GTA, Period.
SO unless they (the TTA's) EVER HAD a GTA badge ON IT ANYWHERE I was not wrong there.
(2) I also CLEARLY said I have not talked to the guy that claimed his 'bird was a GTA all that much (twice to be specific), and I have not gone over his car with a fine tooth comb. I repeated what he claimed, and how the car was badged.
otherwise you need to get over yourself.
I am not all that jazzed that I own an actual GTA, yeah it has some parts that I will not to need to replace right off the bat like sway bars, wonder bar and rear disk brakes. Otherwise it is a thirdgen, and I think of it as such.
Last edited by V6sucker; 05-28-2006 at 11:08 AM.
05-29-2006, 12:20 AM
#41
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Jim, I read your post and thought I had written it for a minute! Ya bastid!!
Originally Posted by V6sucker
...(3) Also read what I said about the TTA's.
I said they were not BADGED as GTA's. I DID SAY they shared the same performance parts. And from what I have read, any car could have gotten the parts, but unless it was BADGED as a GTA, it is not a GTA, Period.
SO unless they (the TTA's) EVER HAD a GTA badge ON IT ANYWHERE I was not wrong there.
...
I said they were not BADGED as GTA's. I DID SAY they shared the same performance parts. And from what I have read, any car could have gotten the parts, but unless it was BADGED as a GTA, it is not a GTA, Period.
SO unless they (the TTA's) EVER HAD a GTA badge ON IT ANYWHERE I was not wrong there.
...
Here is two cents >
Go buy a clue. Here I'll even make it easier for you:Look at LC2 and Y84
Tada!
Drink Sprite. Play again.
Last edited by Red Devil; 05-29-2006 at 10:37 AM.
05-29-2006, 01:03 AM
#42
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Car: '88 GTA, 90 Formula
Engine: 5.7 TPI, fed growth hormones
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Axle/Gears: 9bolt
Time will tell...
Having been in the industry for a while, I agree with the V.P., sorry. Ask any multi-line company around, and high-end 3rd gen parts just don't sell, be they either resto or performance. When you talk strictly about resto stuff, it is still very easy to find 3rd gens in the junkyards. As long as there are plently of available OEM parts in the boneyards, and you can pick up the cars for a few grand and fix them up, NOBODY will resore them. An earlier f-body that is now worth over 15K is something different.
When all the "beaters" are crushed, and people who were in school when the IROCs and GTA's were hot become older and affluent, the story will change, but they'll probably always play second fiddle to the Rustangs of the same years.
But I bought mine to flog and to tinker with!
Troy
When all the "beaters" are crushed, and people who were in school when the IROCs and GTA's were hot become older and affluent, the story will change, but they'll probably always play second fiddle to the Rustangs of the same years.
But I bought mine to flog and to tinker with!
Troy
05-31-2006, 06:07 PM
#43
Just wait - When the money starts coming, they'll change their story. Ecklers could just as easily say that '82 Corvette Collector Edition cars are never restored, but instead they just go ahead and sell a BUNCH of parts for them. NPD will jump in when the money is there. And it will be ...
Mike M
Mike M
05-31-2006, 09:50 PM
#44
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Transmission: 700-R4
Axle/Gears: 9 Bolt 2.77
As far as restoration goes, I'm more interested in interior parts. While you could say that all the parts are pretty much interchangable from any year, the early thirdgens are somewhat in a group of their own. Having an '82, there are alot of '82 T/A year specfic parts. I feel that because of this their wont be much of an "aftermarket" for restoration. Why would a company spend the money to produce parts that are a 1 year application? Some might say that their aren't that many year specific parts, but I can tell you I can't find them in the junkyards. When I do find thirdgens they are so beat up nothing is "useable" in the sense that it doesn't look any better than the part(s) I'm trying to replace. Unless you find a nice thirdgen that just got smashed and that is why it's in the junkyard, you wont find many nice junkyard parts...and not too many people respect the cars in the junkyards when they take parts, ruining other things that people might need down the road, just to get some switch or trim piece. While it's nice to see places like Classic Industries offer parts for thirdgens, they are basically NOS pieces with little repos. Maybe if they started making some of the harder to find parts, the prices on Ebay will start to come down. I'm not holding my breath
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