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DSE plate narrowed by 2in cut out with rounded edges to match plate TIG fillet weld with a fusion pass inside the plate slight warping of the factory metal tiny bit of suck back under the plate Arctic White single stage paint + Aeromotive fuel tank installed
That being said, brace yourself for all the hate mail and death threats you will now be receiving from the purists and radicals. They will tell everyone that you are now driving a ticking time bomb death trap and the next time you crash and flip your car gas will pour unabated into the interior, any rear end crash will cause it to fold like a tin can, and how you have somehow made your car utterly worthless to all other third gen buyers. You know, because all of us peel up the entire carpet and strip a third gen down to steel to make sure it is 100% original before we buy it.
If purists didn't like my trap door, they will have a brain aneurysm when they see what I have to do to install the Detroit Speed SFC.
the death wheel go: Buuzzzzzz
If purists didn't like my trap door, they will have a brain aneurysm when they see what I have to do to install the Detroit Speed SFC.
the death wheel go: Buuzzzzzz
Yes. Its a lot of cutting and even more welding. Make sure you tie it into the side pinch weld. You'll then have a car length bar to use as a jack spot.
Nicely done. Nothing wrong with an access panel, if it's done properly / safely. Car's modified with a can opener and sealed with duct tape need not apply.
What's to hate about this MOD! I did it to my 88 iroc (not these exact parts). Its not like we keep our cars "original" anyway. We add aftermarket parts to improve these cars in any way. So, why is this mod any different?. I guess haters are going to hate...
I've got the DSE panel in my 88 too, and basically did the same thing. My welds aren't quite as nice!
The whole debate over this access panel has been blown WAY out of proportion. I think we can agree that a low mile, high option car shouldn't be cut. I think we can also agree that highly modified cars go so far beyond a simple fuel pump access door that it's almost silly to NOT consider the trap door. Where it started was back before our thirdgens were as popular as they are right now, you'd get a guy with a pretty nice survivor car, and rather than dropping the tank, he'd cut a hole. No plans on further mods, no plans on racing the car, no plans on restoring, no real plans at all. Fast forward to today with the popularity of our cars, and people actually LOOKING for clean original cars, they find this guys car and it's ruined, at least for the purpose of a clean surviving original car. Now sure the car is still good, and you can still enjoy it, even if it's NOT a race car, but to a LOT of people, myself included, it's a sign of who knows WHAT else this guy did to the car. THAT's the guy who get beat up for cutting the access hole. Nowadays, if you're tracking the car at all.....LS swapping.....or any MAJOR work, it's a wonder why you WOULDN'T cut the access hole. Totally different discussion than what this USED to be about. I think most of the people on either side of today's social media arguments over this issue really have no idea what or why it started in the first place.
Before I closed my last Business...
I often designed a similar Weld-In Frame, Fuel Tank Access Trap-Door for our Cars.
I did a few things differently, and as a complete Set of Parts:
-Fully Gasketed-Door with full length Hinge across the top of the Door.
-Door secured closed by one Steel Roll-pin across the bottom of the Door.
-Replacement matching Rear Carpet Section, with a separate removable Velcro Carpet Section that hides the Trap-Door access.
...Damn I miss making stuff for our cars.
Last edited by vorteciroc; 06-28-2022 at 11:53 PM.
The whole debate over this access panel has been blown WAY out of proportion. I think we can agree that a low mile, high option car shouldn't be cut. I think we can also agree that highly modified cars go so far beyond a simple fuel pump access door that it's silly to even mention it.
I agree that on a "survivor" car, you should be dropping the tank and doing it right, but on a modified car, I think adding a trap door is a fantastic option. Where I think all the hate comes from is when somebody buys a car, then finds out either by removing the tank or the carpet that the floor was peeled up like a tunafish can top, then poorly put back, or just poorly repaired with a panel gooped up over the hole. Unfortunately, that's how the majority of these "modifications" were done.
When my tank is out of the IROC when I finally get around to getting back to my LS swap, I'll be adding an access panel to mine, but it'll be done similarly to the DSE panel.
but on a modified car, I think adding a trap door is a fantastic option.
I've re-worded my post. What I MEANT was that on a modified car, it's such a good idea that even mentioning this whole debate is silly. It's a GREAT option.
I think it really comes down to how often you anticipate needing to service things on top of fuel tank. Hopefully almost never....
My aftermarket pumps have been very unreliable and I've been in my tank three times in about 6 years. Honestly, I'd rather drop the tank than work through the interior. My car is waaaaaaaaaay too clean to be doing that kind of **** inside my interior!
Take a 5 gallon gas tank and put it in the back of your car and open the lid. Leave it there for a while. If you're okay with that then this mod will not bother you when it comes time to make a repair.
As for myself.... No thank you!!!
I put my fuel tank outside in the driveway before I open it. I didn't even want it in my garage let alone inside my car. And that's just because of the smell....
.... but there's another reason why I do that. I know somebody that almost died filling a lawn mower inside his garage. He didn't have to spill anything. The fumes spread out around him on the floor and then an appliance in the garage sparked and he was in a ball of fire holding a gas tank in his hands. He's horribly disfigured all over his body and lives in constant pain now.
.... but there's another reason why I do that. I know somebody that almost died filling a lawn mower inside his garage. He didn't have to spill anything. The fumes spread out around him on the floor and then an appliance in the garage sparked and he was in a ball of fire holding a gas tank in his hands. He's horribly disfigured all over his body and lives in constant pain now.
My brother-in-law was nearly consumed in much the same way. In his case it was a volatile flooring adhesive that ignited when the hot water tank kicked in.
You can never be too careful. Just transferring fuel from one container to another can spark off from the static electricity that may be generated.
The prior owner of my car cut an access flap over the gas tank and when he was done he simply folded it back. I totally get the anger of buying a car in good condition only to find a cut up trunk pan. I had to do mine and I followed a similar path as the OP, I even used a gasket on mine. About a year later my interior caught fire. The cabin interior was a total loss. It burned for 10 minutes or so because plastic and foam is hard to extinguish without a dry chemical extinguisher. The fire never went past the rear seats but the flames reached about 8' high so it was a serious fire. The flames and heat are what broke the windshield. All this to say, the trap door and fuel system didn't add to the fire or show any signs of danger. I believe if a trap door was well made it would not be the cause of your death while driving. QwkTrip is right about the dangers involved with working around gas fumes. You should be in an open and well ventilated area, the battery should be disconnected and the gas tank drained.
Have an old bud that used to scrap a lot of cars back in the day. He'd siphon all the gas for his car, then stick a torch in the fuel neck just to watch the tank balloon and fire shoot out. Pretty interesting. He never was all there - but still alive today.
Wait, what? In what situation would you EVER weld a tank with fuel in it?
A Pettey Officer 1st-class (E6) that I met after both leaving servitude to our wonderful Goverment, was a Seabee Welder...
and taught me how to Weld Containers of Volatile/ Flammable Liquids.
As I had already said... The Vapors are far more Reactive/ likely to Ignite than the Liquid.
About the ONLY thing that I work with regularly, that can not have it's container welded this way is Nitro-Methane.
If you just look at the stuff the wrong way, it will Ignite!
No Ignition source is required in the Race Cars...
The ignition system is only there to aid in starting the Engine on Methanol (then immediately switching over to Nitro-Methane for the Burnout and Run).
The Compression will self-ignite (Diesel) the Nitro-Methane.
The Spark Plugs in a Top-Fuel Engine have been completely melted away, about half a second in to the Pass.
The Spark Plug below is about the least amount melted that you would normally see:
Last edited by vorteciroc; 01-15-2023 at 05:46 PM.
About the ONLY thing that I work with regularly, that can not have it's container welded this way is Nitro-Methane.
If you just look at the stuff the wrong way, it will Ignite!
No Ignition source is required in the Race Cars...
The ignition system is only there to aid in starting the Engine on Methanol (then immediately switching over to Nitro-Methane for the Burnout and Run).
The Compression will self-ignite (Diesel) the Nitro-Methane.
The Spark Plugs in a Top-Fuel Engine have been completely melted away, about half a second in to the Pass.
The Spark Plug below is about the least amount melted that you would normally see:
uhh... nitro cars absolutely need a strong ignition, and they run magnetos. they are not firing from the compression, they are on the verge of hydro locking.
Yes 2 Mags and 2 Plugs per Cylinder in Top Fuel...
and yes there is an unbelievable amount of Fuel being injected.
Nitro-methane is difficult to first ignite, but after that...
the ONLY way you will stop a Top Fuel Engine is by cutting off all Fuel.
I would somewhat agree with you in regard to Lower Power Nitro-Methane Engines...
But Not at all in Top Fuel.
Once the Throttle is Open and the Engine is making close to 15,000 HP...
There is enough Cylinder Pressure and Temperature that No Ignition is needed...
The Engine would even remain running if all air into the Engine was blocked off (it will not make much power but it will run).
The Fuel carries enough Oxygen on it's own once ignited.
If you can explain to me how an ignition source is required when the Spark Plugs no longer function, I would be impressed.
Last edited by vorteciroc; 01-16-2023 at 11:07 PM.
I used to run nitro RC cars. I usually ran a 30% mix, but sometimes I’d drop the compression and run up to 50%. for more power, typically when doing top speed runs or during exhibitions where the extra power was worth the wow factor.
They ran on glow plugs, and once started as long as the plug tip retained heat they would not stop running unless you flooded them or starved them. The 3 needle carbs were very simple affairs and you really didn’t have a lot of control.
Yes 2 Mags and 2 Plugs per Cylinder in Top Fuel...
and yes there is an unbelievable amount of Fuel being injected.
Nitro-methane is difficult to first ignite, but after that...
the ONLY way you will stop a Top Fuel Engine is by cutting off all Fuel.
I would somewhat agree with you in regard to Lower Power Nitro-Methane Engines...
But Not at all in Top Fuel.
Once the Throttle is Open and the Engine is making close to 15,000 HP...
There is enough Cylinder Pressure and Temperature that No Ignition is needed...
The Engine would even remain running if all air into the Engine was blocked off (it will not make much power but it will run).
The Fuel carries enough Oxygen on it's own once ignited.
If you can explain to me how an ignition source is required when the Spark Plugs no longer function, I would be impressed.
did some research, looks like you are right on top end, they are pretty much dieseling going through the traps. had never heard that, only that the a/f was nearly to a solid at that point and nearly hydrolocking. the plug electrodes are consumed by the magneto's during the pass, not like torching them or the heads. they shut it down by cutting fuel as you said. they are insane machines for sure.
With the 60+ Pounds of Boost, 18.0:1 Static Compression...
And the 15,000 HP worth of Explosions going on...
There is sooooooooo much Crankcase Pressure that nearly all 18 Quarts (Dry Sump) have been blown-out (Blow-By) of the Engine from everywhere possible!
5 to 8 Gallons of fuel in 4 seconds... and about 18 quarts of Motor oil.
I saw the "5" and "8" and "seconds" and it reminded me of something I remember from a few years back. 58 pounds of fuel per second through this (with throttles in Z-4 burner notch):
I don't think it dumps anywhere near as much oil, however.
And that has to be one of the cleanest fuel pump access doors ever shown here. Even if you no longer make them, it's a great concept to share as a pattern for the right method to use.
With that said, I can get the tank down quite quickly on my lift, but not everyone has a full shop.
-- Joe
The physical nuts and bolts notwithstanding as that part's relatively easy, it's the muffler and the bound together clamps and joints that are pretty much unremovable. Mine being a street car with a lot of miles accumulated, it required the intermediate pipe being cut so as to get the rear portion of the exhaust, including the muffler, out of the way. Then welded back together.
I can imagine a better engineered arrangements, perhaps with band clamps rather than the "Flowmaster American Thunder !" cat back that's been on my Camaro since day 1 (25 years ago) would make for easier removal. Once a traditional muffler clamp has done it's job and the components have been together for any length of time or mileage, it's more or less one fixed assembly.
So I made a small batch of this panels.
available on my eBay store.
they are a huge pain to assemble so I'm probably NOT gonna make more.
I might end up buying one of these from you. If you start selling out fast, Ill decide soon. Good move making these, that does look like the best fitment on one of these that I've ever seen. Nice
Anyone who puts a trap door in these cars is crazy. It's totally gonna blow up.
but, in all seriousness. What's more likely, demise from trapdoor related incineration or a massive neurovascular event secondary to wrestling w that damn miserable gas tank?
I'll be purchasing one of these well made trap doors and risk death by incineration over fighting w that miserable tank.
So This Thread kind of spiraled out of control a bit lol. zero cares about nitro or how to weld in my fuel tank lol..
back maybe to a question I haven't seen answered about the trap door. I have one of the OP's trap door's on the shelf, nice piece. have a pump that is going bad, I've had the tank out 2 times over the last, oh I don't know, 15ish plus years. it mostly sucks. I'm ready to cut this thing up and install a trap door. but for the life of me looking at this. can you even get the fuel hanger out thru a trap door? I know you can if you have an fittings and stuff on it, or a 4th Gen tank. but the oem 3rd Gen stuff is hard lined 2 foot long coming out.
I'd be annoyed if I cut the floor up and still had to drop the tank lol. I see one pic on Google that shows a guy cut a big L shape in his, I'm guessing because it wouldn't come out.
Once the sender is freed up you should have enough wiggle room to get it out. I used all AN fittings up by the sender to make it easier but I don't think most people do that.
You'd need to cut the lines and put back together with short hoses on the vent and return lines and a compression union on the supply line if it's a high pressure system. Tedious work but way better than wrestling that tank out and back in without damaging the fill neck. That's a chore!
06-23-2022, 03:21 AM
