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I've decided to put a 8.8 in my z. I've done a boatload of research on the matter tho I still have a few questions regarding total width. Axle flange to axle flange. I'm planning on running ls1 brakes in the rear. My question is, does it make sense to make it the same width as my 10 bolt, or would it make sense to have it a little narrower to allow for a wider tire? I was planning on calling strange or moser as I'm sure they have plenty info on it. Also am ordering axles so I'd need to call regardless. But i thought I'd start here. Some pretty knowledgeable guys here, granny, blackbird, etc.
Anyways, my plan is to chop tubes as you will see in pics, machine down some adapters that will be pressed in and also be plug welded, and weld strange H1143 housing ends on.
The housing ends reminded me of another question, what bearing style? I've seen a few different styles. Ones a wet style with seal on outside, the other is sealed with seal on inside. Also, do I need a backing plate to hold bearing in or will the ls1 abutment bracket, parking brake deal suffice.
I'm also making a panhard bar and torque arm, both adjustable. 1.250 dom with hime joints, and a del-sphere going on torque arm.
Today my pappy and I machined pucks for an alignment jig for centering the housing ends on.
Any tips, advice is much appreciated.
Dan
These were turned down from 3.25 aluminum to act as dummy bearings used to center housing ends with carrier bearings. Using 1.25 1018 cold rolled for my bar.
These will be turned down leaving .25 in the middle as a shoulder and something to weld to. May go .5 still debating. But these will be pressed in and plug welded.
Wanted to press these old tubes out, and put new in but its a lot of work. These stubs are 5". The adapters will go in each axle tube roughly 3 inches per side. Axle tubes will be welded to housing.
I was going into this a few years back for mt 4th gen- never finished - sold car i was going same width as stock and using a 28 spline posi and axles since was street only car. Its up to you on how bad you want to build this I just figured is I'll never have enough power to hurt 28 spline axles so to me it was easy to go stock width and parts - The reason I diddn't finish was I didnt have a way to heat pumpkin up for the nickel welding rod to get good weld down you really need a kiln to get it to 700 or so degrees, weld and then put back in kiln and shut off for cool down
I was going into this a few years back for mt 4th gen- never finished - sold car i was going same width as stock and using a 28 spline posi and axles since was street only car. Its up to you on how bad you want to build this I just figured is I'll never have enough power to hurt 28 spline axles so to me it was easy to go stock width and parts - The reason I diddn't finish was I didnt have a way to heat pumpkin up for the nickel welding rod to get good weld down you really need a kiln to get it to 700 or so degrees, weld and then put back in kiln and shut off for cool down
I will use my rose bud on my torches to preheat, using my temp gun I will monitor temp. Then after welding I have a fire blanket I will wrap around it so it will cool slowly. At least that's the plan.
My motor made 470hp 500tq so my 10 bolt will not last.
thanks for the reply.
Are you going to tub the car? Even with stock axle and no tubs you can fit huge tires in back of a thirdgen. If you want to go bigger, you'll need tubs first, then narrow the axle.
Are you going to tub the car? Even with stock axle and no tubs you can fit huge tires in back of a thirdgen. If you want to go bigger, you'll need tubs first, then narrow the axle.
nope. Not tubbing. But I do want to run a back wheel with a decent dish tho. There is so much to learn about building a car. I've always preferred to do things myself, anything really. From building engines to building a house or fixing the washing machine. But its gotta be done right. So I guess that's why I'm here asking and to also create a thread so if someone wants to do the same they can see how I did it from start to finish. I've done lots of searching here, but either I cant find thorough threads or the ones I find, they just arnt complete.
These will be turned down leaving .25 in the middle as a shoulder and something to weld to. May go .5 still debating. But these will be pressed in and plug welded.
I realize these have not been turned down yet, but it occurred to me that if you have too big of a lump in the way, how will the axle end bearings get lubricated?
Really nice work so far.
I realize these have not been turned down yet, but it occurred to me that if you have too big of a lump in the way, how will the axle end bearings get lubricated?
Really nice work so far.
Great thinking. Ya know they say, great minds think alike! I thought about this and after machining them down, there will be a 1/4" wall on the inside belly of exsisting housing tube that the oil will HAVE to get over. After measuring the fill/level plug hole, I should be fine. I do have to relocate the fill plug as the stock location will be covered by my torque arm mount. Thinking I'm either going to buy a nice diff cover with the provision or relocate just a smidge higher on opposite side as tibo did his.
Machinist at work and i stayed after and turned these adapters down. The first .150 on either end have a machined taper to aid with centering and also ease installation. They fit perfectly in the new dom tubing, but the existing housing tubes are .010 out of round so they will be driven or pressed in. If you look closely you can see the adapters are different o.d on eitjer side as 8.8 tubes are not .250 wall as a lot say they are. No biggie. Also, the exsisting axle tubes will get drilled in 4 spots as well as the new axle tubes so not only will i weld the seam, but plug weld the holes. Ill plug weld first to help aid with distortion, hopefully holding tubes straight. I am using a jig to insure housing ends are inline with carrier bearing centers but, that will not stop distortion. My dad and I have worked on trucks where the axle tubes looked like a banana they were bent so bad. No bearing failure. Not saying it's right, just putting it in perspective I guess is all. I am shooting for protection tho as I know it will distort so the closer I can get it the better.
When I was in college for fluid power I remember my professor putting a strain gauge on a piece of 2 inch 1080 cold rolled steel. The piece was about 10 inches long. You could grab and twist the piece and the strain gauge would detect and pickup the twisting distortion. Really has nothing to do with this post, just thought it was really cool at the time so I thought I'd share.
Depending on what the state of mn does with this cov19, I may have a bunch of time on my hands.
hope everyone and their families stay safe.
This is the doner axle. Only need for a template and for brackets. Definitely not paying 500 bucks for brackets.. The table is made from 1/2 ×12" wide steel i had laying around. This will eventually go on my bench eventually as a new top. Currently i just have a kitchen counter top which is nice, but no good for welding or beating things on. Made a jig table for helping to keep stuff straight when i remove brackets off this old 10 bolt. I was going to go all out and weld everything to the table, but i think instead im going to weld the brackets together on either side of housing, so when i cut them off they are 1 piece. As long as i replicate the angle and distance from housing end, i should be good to go. Anyone have any ideas? Rather not make some crazy jig, but will if needed.
How are you making sure that the 1018 is straight?
Why are you asking about which bearings/ends if you posted pics of some axle tube ends in your first post?
As far as axle width there are 3 ways to go:
- if you're tubbing the car then tub it, find the wheels you want to run and then cut it to the length the wheels will fit best at
- If you mostly drag racing the car stay third-gen width or I might consider up to 1/2" narrower/side (you can do a lot more to make room on the outside, where if you run into the outer lip there isn't much you can do unless you want to flair things). 15" drag wheels are easiest to find in sizes that work well on the 3rd gen width. If you want to run newer, larger diameter wheels you can aways run spacers. (this is what I did on mine)
- if you're mostly street/road racing on modern wheels, most larger diameter wheels are designed around c4 and newer corvette/4th gen and newer f-body high positive offsets. In that case I'd consider going 4th gen width so you can just bolt those wheels on without spacers (bolt on spacers are not a liability WRT to strength, but they are an extra hassle). This will limit you to newer designs for wheels but it's not that bad compared to dealing with other cars, but you'll also never be able to bolt on stock wheels or "old school" wheels unless they're custom made to modern high positive offsets.
I'm not sure what you're thinking of making for a jig, but really the concern is that they are welded on at the same angle again, so a good angle gauge and leveling out the axle is really all you need if you take careful notes off the original.
If you overcomplicate things like me you don't really need an original axle except to measure off of, since at some point you'll realize that you want multiple mounting holes for the LCA and PHR and you'll end up making your own brackets. 3/16" steel works well and ends up stronger than stock if you go that way, may want to make yourself a press brake if you go that way also, it will save you time. At that point, measure angles, measure distance from the centerline, then mock it up in cardboard, cut it, bend it, weld it, have your 3y/o twins approve of it and keep going...
I'm not sure what you're thinking of making for a jig, but really the concern is that they are welded on at the same angle again, so a good angle gauge and leveling out the axle is really all you need if you take careful notes off the original.
If you overcomplicate things like me you don't really need an original axle except to measure off of, since at some point you'll realize that you want multiple mounting holes for the LCA and PHR and you'll end up making your own brackets. 3/16" steel works well and ends up stronger than stock if you go that way, may want to make yourself a press brake if you go that way also, it will save you time. At that point, measure angles, measure distance from the centerline, then mock it up in cardboard, cut it, bend it, weld it, have your 3y/o twins approve of it and keep going...
Lol, well hey, if its kid approved then its gotta be golden. Yes, definitely dont want to over complicate things. My car is lowered just a inch so stuff shouldn't be off too much. Once I get the rear to size I will fart around and see about lca and pan bar brackets. I have full access to a machine shop at work so it shouldn't be to hard.
Got the adapters pressed in housing. Completely forgot to bevel inner tubes but i can still do it with my grinder no problem. Outer tubes slip on nicely so i will grind them also. Think i may just run this width. What ya all think?? Can easily put some 40" wheels on it then. Well at least out back. Lol
I welded a torque arm mount on for a buddy last year on an 8.8. He did the rest with a flux-core. Its holding up so far with a nitrous/LS combo. I let the center section sit on a hot plate and heated it with a torch, then TIGed it with stainless rod. Let it slow cool on the hot plate, and covered it with a blanket as you mentioned. Anyway, might get some ideas? Love seeing the fabrication guys do!
I narrowed a 10-bolt in my car a few years ago. It was a ton of work. Looking back, i think it would have been easier to just back half the car and go with ladder bars or 4-link? Sure woulda been nice to get rid of the torque arm, as it opens many options for rear choices. Might give you some ideas? https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/fabr...-out-poor.html
I narrowed a 10-bolt in my car a few years ago. It was a ton of work. Looking back, i think it would have been easier to just back half the car and go with ladder bars or 4-link? Sure woulda been nice to get rid of the torque arm, as it opens many options for rear choices. Might give you some ideas? https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/fabr...-out-poor.html
Great info. Yeah, I really dont want to cut this car up too much as it is a 84z l69 that came loaded from factory. Zero rust. When the go fast side of me fades, I may go back to stock.
What wire did you use to weld to the housing? I've heI'd they are cast steel so normal mig wire works fine.
I dont remember the number of the rod. I've always used stainless filler rod when tig welding cast iron. I think theres a way to test cast iron to cast steel,...run a grinder on it and see how much it sparks? But i'm going to say its cast iron, IIRC?
So after reading just about everything I can find on if its cast steel or iron, I've come to the conclusion that I'm just not going to weld the tubes to housing. It's not that i dont have the skills or equipment, but rather why? I dont have much hp or tq compared to others and the car is light, very light compared to the SUV that it was in. Only time i read of someone spinning a tube is when they have 35s on it and is a rock crawler.
it seems it's a 50/50 on the net, cast or iron. I'm leaning towards iron as the sparks look exactly the same when I grind on the 10 bolt and that's cast iron. So yeah, why fix what isnt broke. Also, and I know this is true cause i do it to valve seats, is when you weld around something, after it cools it shrinks. Now I know the tube goes 4 inches in the housing and it's not gunna shrink the whole thing, but again, why if its not broke.
How will you be setting the toe and camber? This is what made me not build my 8.8 myself once I learned the axles tubes have a precise pitch to them I had TNT fab do mine. You should be able to see some pitch in that 7.5 on the 4th gen rears it real pops out most would just think the tubes are bent. And yes I could see it after I got my 8.8 back from tnt. The pitch does a few things like tire wear to handling but the big one is it keeps some load on the c-clips.
I dont remember the number of the rod. I've always used stainless filler rod when tig welding cast iron. I think theres a way to test cast iron to cast steel,...run a grinder on it and see how much it sparks? But i'm going to say its cast iron, IIRC?
How will you be setting the toe and camber? This is what made me not build my 8.8 myself once I learned the axles tubes have a precise pitch to them I had TNT fab do mine. You should be able to see some pitch in that 7.5 on the 4th gen rears it real pops out most would just think the tubes are bent. And yes I could see it after I got my 8.8 back from tnt. The pitch does a few things like tire wear to handling but the big one is it keeps some load on the c-clips.
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Are you saying they actually made your rearend not straight? Never heard of such a thing. Places that narrow rearends have an expensive set of precision bars and collars, a well founded jig to set the housing in, just to keep it straight.
I'd comment further, but will wait for your reply.
Factory rears aren't straight if you think they are you need to look at them closer. Will a straight rear work yes but its more for a drag set up.
I've never heard of such a thing, I've taken great pains when welding on rears to not induce pulling/pushing them out of alignment and checking with my homemade V block on the housings. You do realize that a bearing that is forced to a position will eventually howl and go out?
Have you ever seen a rear end jig/set up before? They are made to keep everything in one straight line.
Oh, as far as factory rears go, that's mainly due to the factory not adhering to aftermarket specs., call Curie/Starnge/etc and ask them.
Factory rears aren't straight if you think they are you need to look at them closer. Will a straight rear work yes but its more for a drag set up.
Out of the hundreds and hundreds of threads and professional frame/rearend guys, I have never ever heard of this. Now have I seen axle tubes with a bow in them, sure have but its usually a dump truck that has been way over loaded.
Go on YouTube and see how they press tubes in a housing. Not talking about a shop doing it but from the factory. It would be IMPOSSIBLE for a manufacturer to put in a specific number of camber and toe due to the amount of welding that happens. Even welding the brackets on the tubes will cause the tube to pull.
The alignment bar only gets you close. I dont care how strong it is. When you apply heat/weld to steel it moves. This is where years and years of welding makes you a good welder.
I would really like it if you could post information on this if you have it as I cant find any. I've even asked a friend, who has a very nice alignment rack if there is such a thing. He said to stay off the forums.
I do appreciate your reply as this is something I never thought of and if it holds water, I can figure out how I'm going to do it.
Got some welding done. Spent some time setting up the welder so it burns in/flows nicely.
still going to practice welding on a old tube as it's not every day a guy welds around a relatively small tube. Want the welder to be as hot as I can get it so i can get good penetration and move fast without putting too much heat in it.
How will you be setting the toe and camber? This is what made me not build my 8.8 myself once I learned the axles tubes have a precise pitch to them I had TNT fab do mine. You should be able to see some pitch in that 7.5 on the 4th gen rears it real pops out most would just think the tubes are bent. And yes I could see it after I got my 8.8 back from tnt. The pitch does a few things like tire wear to handling but the big one is it keeps some load on the c-clips.
Keeps loads on the c clips?? This is also a new one to me.. I'd think, after thinking about this for just a minute, you wouldn't want any load on your c clips. They would wear out extremely fast. Also what about the millions of cars out there that dont have c clips??
Now you have me thinking, are you trolling??
Seems like a lot of money to spend to induce a toe in on a rearend....
No doubt. The only info I've found on the matter so far is this. Also if a rear axle is IRS you can do it. 1 deg will cause the splines to bind from what I've read so far.
I guess it could, (1 degree), but I know from the real world my Dad replaced his left rear wheel bearing every 10-12K miles on his new '57 Chevy PU. In the early 60's he found that tube was off and replaced the rearend. How far off, I don't know, although I do know I'm on the 3rd rear end in it since I was 16....
PS...something about a BBC can take one out even if it's straight
Originally Posted by -=Z28=-
No doubt. The only info I've found on the matter so far is this. Also if a rear axle is IRS you can do it. 1 deg will cause the splines to bind from what I've read so far.
IDK why you would want any toe or camber on a street car? I have seen where they purposely heat up the tubes with a rosebud in nascar to make slight changes in camber. But they're just turning left. 4WD vehicles often have about 1 degree toe in, in the rear, and 1 degree out in the front. Something about the way they operate. But never heard of any toe or camber changes in a RWD rear.
[QUOTE=-=Z28=-;6361088]
Machinist at work and i stayed after and turned these adapters down. The first .150 on either end have a machined taper to aid with centering and also ease installation. They fit perfectly in the new dom tubing, but the existing housing tubes are .010 out of round so they will be driven or pressed in. Z28 you have a factory 7.5 sitting there so how straight and true is it?
Over the last 20 years I have pulled many 7.5 rears out of 3rd gens and never found one with straight tubes and they all seemed to work fine didnt even burn up one bearing unreal right? Sad GM cant build a rear with straight tubes but the aftermarket does so must be right.
Whats the rear toe on your guys cars there are some real experts posting lol can you even figure out how to measure it?
Your just trolling with no actual proof. Perhaps you could show some documentation to your belief since your the "expert"?
I have done home alignments for toe and camber over a few decades. Never saw a RWD car with toe in the rear, unless it was damaged.
Whats the rear toe on your guys cars there are some real experts posting lol can you even figure out how to measure it?
How do they do this? The only way I see possible is if when they are machining the diff, they will or cut the housing at said angle. Axle tubes have brackets and provisions already welded on and have been checked, go or no go. Then when pressed in it's done. To me, it seems like a lot of work that they are not going to do.
if I were to try and measure it, I would bolt something to my axle flange to increase the area for measuring. Then I'd measure from side to side. Seems simple enough.
Machinist at work and i stayed after and turned these adapters down. The first .150 on either end have a machined taper to aid with centering and also ease installation. They fit perfectly in the new dom tubing, but the existing housing tubes are .010 out of round so they will be driven or pressed in. Z28 you have a factory 7.5 sitting there so how straight and true is it?
I haven't measured it. I have no intention to measure it. I can almost guarantee there is a plus or minus, go or no go, that is checked from the factory before it goes on a car as there is no way they are all the same. No way. I mean, I'm sure out of the hundreds of thousands that they built some are perfect, some have the same misalignment, just as keys have the same issue also. Had a couple buddy's in high school, one had chevy, other gm, keys worked in either one.
If you would be so kind as to tell me how you measure them, I'd measure this 10 bolt, and the 4 other ones I have to prove that they are all different. Tho the data will be flawed as I dont know the axles history, ie, was it in a accident, did some ******* jump it? Did the ******* have his "ant no lady unless shes 480" in the car when he jumped it.
As I mentioned before, I've seen MANY rears that have a bow in them. Can see it by just looking at it. Half a inch type stuff. I can assure it did not come from the factory like this.
Got the tubes on, started with the plug welds. It held true. Dead nuts on both sides. Final pass weld. They are ok, im happy with them. It is very difficult to weld a tube wo a 2nd hand turning it for you. No under cutting and it laid down nice. Side shot. Not sticking up too high. I know many of you will say, dont grind the welds smooth, but im going to. Being its got a 6" adapter inside that has been plug welded in 8 places, a beefy hot root pass, im very confident grinding them down wont hurt this to the point it will fail. I only have 470hp and just under 500tq. It may seem like a lot to some, but in all realities, its really not. More to come. D
Look, many factory rears are not 100% true, that's a given...right out the chute. What's it take to cause an issue? I dunno, all I do know (as mentioned before) my dad replaced a rear because of a bad housing made in '57. How far off was it?...no clue.
That said, every manufacturer strives to get a 100% straight axle, plain and simple. Expensive equipment is available for everyone, if you are doing the fab yourself...again, to keep the axle straight.
I recall son many years ago I had a buddy who was a framer, he'd put nails in his mouth to grab them quickly. As we talked about this, he "proclamation" was that the nail manufactures added something into the mix to promote good hygiene... or similar...was a long time ago.
Seemed plausible I guess, but not reality.
If one wants to "toe/camber/caster their rear end under their car, go ahead. I'm fine with a straight housing.
Thanks man! I'm ok. Grew up in a welding shop so I've dabbled some.
So tig welding, I've done that too but on aluminum. Never stainless. At this job site where they make ice cream, (I'm always snooping in dumpsters) I looked in the stainless dumpster and omg, score. A bunch of 3" stainless steel tubing. So i immediately knew what my exhaust was going to be made of.
so, I'll have to learn to tig stainless, which is a whole new ball game.
Should have plenty of bends to do what i plan. Plan is to merge into 1 pipe and either dump b4 axle or attempt to go over and out. 8' is the longest piece. Have plenty of flanges. But this will be a whole different thread.
Thanks man! I'm ok. Grew up in a welding shop so I've dabbled some.
So tig welding, I've done that too but on aluminum. Never stainless. At this job site where they make ice cream, (I'm always snooping in dumpsters) I looked in the stainless dumpster and omg, score. A bunch of 3" stainless steel tubing. So i immediately knew what my exhaust was going to be made of.
so, I'll have to learn to tig stainless, which is a whole new ball game.
Thanks for the compliment
D
If you can run it on Al, SS will be a breeze. Get a clean, dedicated SS brush, that you clean prior to the weld, blow it off after scrubbing. This will keep those little "rust pitty" things from popping up. Also, you'll use a lot less heat for SS than Al.
You may even find that fusing it without filler will work too, with thin tubing though, most likely not, just depends if you're butting it or lap welding it.
[QUOTE=83 Crossfire TA;6361100]How are you making sure that the 1018 is straight?
I'm rolling it on rollers with a dial indicator. Also, it doesn't matter really. If it's going to pull when I weld, it's going to pull. If I have to straighten it after I can do that in my 100 ton press no problem.
Why are you asking about which bearings/ends if you posted pics of some axle tube ends in your first post?
I'm asking because there are different styles to run. Obviously I'm using big style ford, but from what I've seen, there are different styles as I said above. wet vs sealed. Seeing if people have experience with either. Make sense?
03-22-2020, 08:23 PM
