seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

So, I drive two old cars. I have a 1996 Jeep Cherokee as my daily driver, and my 1989 Firebird Formula for fun.

I've just had some money come in, and there are a lot of projects I've been planning for the Firebird that I'm excited about finally being able to do. I'm also going to put some money into the Jeep to bring it back up to snuff, too.

The thing I dread is having to get one vehicle, or the other to places to get work done that I can't do. None of my friends live anywhere near me, and it is a huge pain in the butt to drop off or pick up either of my vehicles.

I was thinking of a tow bar, with quick disconnect permanent mounts on the Firebird that can't be seen when the tow bar isn't hooked up.

Has anyone done this? I searched, but didn't find anything.

Looking for ideas on the best way to do this.

AlkyIROC

Very difficult. Since third gens don't have steel bumpers, the best place to mount a tow bar is to the frame extension that attaches to the honeycomb crash bumper. There isn't a lot of room especially if you want to keep everything hidden when not in use.

You would probably be better off just getting a tow dolly to pull the car.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

Nowhere to store a tow dolly when I'm not using it.

Renting one is no longer an option, either. The computer at U-Haul says my Jeep can't tow my Firebird, so I lied to it and said it was a Honda CRX, which the computer allowed.

Thing is, the contract says you have to either bring both vehicles to them and let them load it, or take the car by after you load it, and let them inspect it. I just went ahead and towed it, then took the tow dolly back and dropped it off. I'm banned for life from ever renting a tow dolly again; I'm a permanent member on the U-Haul enemies list.

It's gotta be a tow bar.

AlkyIROC

I'd say rent an open trailer but your jeep probably isn't enough to pull that either.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

It's got to be a tow bar.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

I imagine welding a plate to the underside of the bumper frame horns, with a big threaded nut welded to the inside of each plate.

The other part would be a huge threaded heim rod end that would screw into the nut welded to the plate.

The tow bar would attach to the heim rod end. When I was done towing, I'd take the heim rod ends out, and you could see nothing.

http://rbcbearings.com/literature/pdfs/Heim.pdf

AlkyIROC

Flat towing with a towbar is a pain. At least with the T5 you can just leave it in neutral. With an automatic transmission, you need to disconnect the driveshaft from the diff if towing long distances (10+ miles). Even using a dolly, you would have to tow the car backwards or remove the driveshaft.

You're also going to need some tow lights to put on the back of the car. Old style plugged into the trailer plug at the back of the tow vehicle then a cable ran to the back of the towed vehicle where a couple of magnetic mount lights sat. New style is similar but all wireless. Places like Harbor Freight should have something.

The really bad thing about flat towing is braking. You've now increased the total weight with a towed vehicle but your jeep's brakes are not designed to stop all the extra weight. You'll need a lot more braking distance to stop.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

So, everything to do with towing has been worked out by the RV industry .... think of all the RVs you see towing cars behind them all over the country.

The lighting won't be much of a problem. They have plug in lighting solutions for many cars. While I doubt they'll have a specific one for an '89 Firebird, the idea is the same; it's just a matter of getting the right plug and wiring it up.

They have many hidden bracket solutions for many specific cars ... just not one for ours.

http://roadmasterinc.com/products/br...cket_type.html

Scroll down a bit to the XL Series Hidden Brackets. Look at the part that stays on the car. You can see three holes where it bolts to the underside of the frame horn. I think something like that would work for me, the difference being I'd want to bolt and unbolt the entire assembly, rather than leaving that part permanently mounted.

Formula 305

If you have the FAB skills & patience I'm sure you can make something that'll work. Having driven Jeeps like yours, I agree I wouldn't want to try to stop it at double the weight of the Jeep. A 2,000 lb trailer felt heavy enough behind mine, a 3rd gen is like 3400 lbs....

On paper I think those Jeeps are rated to tow 5000 lbs, but I'm sure that's with trailer brakes.

cosmick

I just use my old F350 dually whenever I rent a dolly, then they don't require any inspection, their computer says it can tow anything, but my F350 is so thirsty I don't actually use it for the actual towing. They don't need to know, because their computer is always so wrong about what can safely tow what.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

Well, I don't have an F-350 dually, so I've got to figure out a way to do it with what I have.

MoJoe

iTrader: (5)

You really should remove the driveshaft for EITHER manual or automatic... IE anytime you flat tow, or dolly tow a Camaro or Firebird... The transmission INput shaft circulates the lube. Spinning the wheels/driveshaft/output shaft without any oil circulating to lube bearing and such will burn up your transmission eventually.

As for the RV industry, you'll probably notice the tow-bar'd cars fit a narrow category...Those that can be flat tow'ed without burning up the transmission. And/or have had their driveshaft removed.

Don't get fixated on a bad solution because it is the only apparent one.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoJoe

You really should remove the driveshaft for EITHER manual or automatic... IE anytime you flat tow, or dolly tow a Camaro or Firebird... The transmission INput shaft circulates the lube. Spinning the wheels/driveshaft/output shaft without any oil circulating to lube bearing and such will burn up your transmission eventually.

As for the RV industry, you'll probably notice the tow-bar'd cars fit a narrow category...Those that can be flat tow'ed without burning up the transmission. And/or have had their driveshaft removed.

Don't get fixated on a bad solution because it is the only apparent one.

Wow,

You'd think on a fabrication board, people would kind of be into finding ways to DO something, rather than constantly chiming in with a never-ending stream of negativism.

I grew up with a father who was a super low-buck dirt-track racer. He ran a '64 Chevelle in Hobby class. His best friend ran a 66 Chevelle. For better than 20 years, every single Friday night, the two of them towed their racecars 20 miles out to the local racetrack on towbars; driveshafts in. Half the guys there running in Hobby did the same thing.

I know for a fact that neither my old man, nor his friend ever had any problems with their cars from towing them, and I don't recall any of the other guys towing their racecars on tow bars having any towing-related problems, either.

I'm talking about towing the car 10-15 miles at a time, maybe 6 or 7 times a year. There is no way that is going to burn up the transmission.

Jesus.

"You would probably be better off just getting a tow dolly to pull the car."

"I'd say rent an open trailer but your jeep probably isn't enough to pull that either."

"Even using a dolly, you would have to tow the car backwards or remove the driveshaft."

"You really should remove the driveshaft for EITHER manual or automatic... IE anytime you flat tow, or dolly tow a Camaro or Firebird... The transmission INput shaft circulates the lube. Spinning the wheels/driveshaft/output shaft without any oil circulating to lube bearing and such will burn up your transmission eventually."

I used to own a tow dolly when I was in Atlanta. Much bigger area to cover. It was when I first got the car, and I was getting work done on the car much more often. In over three years, I probably towed the Firebird an average of 25 miles, more than 3 dozen times. NEVER a problem with the transmission.

One thing I always did was make sure I drove the car between tows, lubricating the transmission. I'd take it to a shop and drop it off. When I came to pick it up, I'd drive it 10 miles, or so before putting it back on the dolly, just to lubricate the trans. Never a problem.

As far as towing it? I ordered my Jeep with a towing package: LSD, 1" lift, upgraded shocks and springs, HD radiator, trans cooler. Regardless of what U-Haul says, it has more than enough power (and brakes) to pull that Firebird. When I moved to Tulsa, I towed the Firebird here on a car trailer (even more weight). Never a problem.

I towed the Firebird on the towbar once from Atlanta to Charlotte on a 102 degree day. Drove at 50 mph with the transmission in "D", A/C blasting all the way. It never got above 210. The driveshaft was out, and the spare input shaft was in, of course.

"The really bad thing about flat towing is braking. You've now increased the total weight with a towed vehicle but your jeep's brakes are not designed to stop all the extra weight. You'll need a lot more braking distance to stop."

Yes, you'll need a lot more distance to stop. You'd need a lot more distance to stop, regardless of whether you were towing with a tow bar, a tow dolly, or a trailer without trailer brakes. That's kinda towing 101.

The fact is, my Jeep has ABS. It actually stops better than my Firebird. When towing, I drive slowly, and really increase the spacing between myself and the car in front. Still, in the years I towed that Firebird around Atlanta, there were a number of panic-stop situations. Never a problem.

I bought my Jeep new in 1996, and I keep pretty detailed maintenance records. I redid the front and rear brakes in my Jeep in 2001, about 6 months before I moved to Atlanta, and bought the tow dolly. I redid them again in 2005. Even after more than 3 years of towing the Firebird all over the Atlanta area, over 250 mile to Charlotte, twice, and nearly 800 miles here to Tulsa, I still got more than 37,000 miles out of those brakes. That's the least I got out of any set, but only by 4,000 miles.

Now, I hope I've demonstrated I'm aware of all of the risks involved. What I'd really like to do now is focus on how I can make this happen. That's what sucks about the internets. You ask for advice on how to do something, and everyone wants to debate why you shouldn't do it in the first place.

I know what I want to do. I'd sure appreciate some advice from the fabricators on here on how I might do it.

AlkyIROC

Well you seem to be convinced that it can be done so fabricate some way to use a towbar and show us how to easily do it.

The majority of the members who reply to messages have been doing this for a long time. You ask for advice then ignore all the advice given and get upset about the responses. If there was a simple and easy way to do something to a third gen, it's already in the archive somewhere. If it isn't there's probably a good reason why.

I flat towed my car to the track for a couple of years until I bought a trailer. Track was only 5 miles away. When I towed out of town, I removed the driveshaft. I was towing it with a 454SS. Even when I used the same truck to tow the open trailer, I never even felt the extra weight. I have a 2004 F350 Diesel for a tow vehicle but I now have an enclosed car trailer. My 2014 F150 shouldn't have any issues since it has the 6.2L engine and tow package plus the trailer has a weight distribution hitch to transfer tow weight onto all 4 tires of the tow vehicle but I haven't tested it yet.

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

I'm sure it can be done, especially after consulting an expert..

And there's the disconnect.

I asked for advice on HOW to do it, not whether it should be done.

I've owned my Jeep for 19 1/2 years. I've owned my Firebird for over 13 years. I've hauled my Firebird around on tow dollies and trailers with my Jeep many times, over distances long and short, and yet y'all persist in hysterically insisting the Jeep can't pull it, it won't stop, it's unsafe, blah blah blah.

Again, I NEVER asked for ersatz advice on any of that. I asked for advice on HOW to attach a tow bar to the Firebird.

It would be one thing if you'd said "I think you could do it this way, or that way, but I've got real concerns about flat towing", etc, etc, etc., but that's not what you did.

Go back and look at your posts here. Every single post is a constant stream of hand-wringing and negativism, and you KNOW it's largely crap. There's almost no help in DOING it, and over and over again, you raised BS objection after objection, INSISTING to the guy who's towed his Firebird around with his Jeep for years that it simply cannot be done, and every time I addressed your latest reason why doing so is an absolute disaster and a menace to public safety, you came back and attacked it from another direction.

The bottom line is you don't like the idea of what I want to do, and all you've done here is try to quash the idea, exaggerating every potential negative to ridiculous proportions in your attempt to do so.

My Jeep is rated at 5,000lbs towing. My Firebird weighs 3,500. I can legally tow that car with my Jeep in every state I'm aware of, I've done it many times, and I have zero interest in debating it with people who know they are full of it.

By the way, I stopped off at a huge RV place today and talked to the shop manager. He said he's put towing mounts on numerous Firebirds in his 30+ years in the business. They've all been permanent mounts, but he said he though my idea of using angle iron had merit. I'm going to take the Firebird to him next week so he can put it up on a lift and see what he thinks.

And the wiring that caused you so much consternation and trepidation? He has a premade harness for 30 bucks. All he'll have to do is change one connector on the harness to plug it into the Firebird's wiring harness.

I am utterly shocked, disappointed, and disgusted that I went into a FABRICATION forum in order to get advice and ideas on how something might be done, and all I got was criticism of the idea, and every made-up, overblown, dishonestly exaggerated reason in the world why it was impossible, unsafe, or stupid.

Wow.

Camaro86IrocZ

iTrader: (1)

So much anger, Share pics when you got it done, I'm curious to see what you come up with.. This is how innovation happens.. Fixing a problem..

seanof30306

iTrader: (4)

Not anger, Brah ... disgust

jmd

iTrader: (4)

I don't think you'll find a pre-made mount solution for a bar. But, tow-bars with a curve to get under / around a bumper have been made before. If you find a way to quick-attach / detach the front bumper cover, that might be a viable way to bolt the bar up easier and straighter.

Wiring is easy. If you need to tap into a vehicle that has a harness connector for taillight harness, get a junkyard male side, female side, build a harness that goes in between the car's two pieces, and tap into that interim harness. Easy to build and easy to remove.

I've towed passenger cars similar / larger in size than your `bird and it'll work just fine as long as you follow the usual towing precautions.

As for auto / manual being towed, I agree the T5 is fine. A 700-R4, I'd disconnect the driveline and tie it up.