jhyneman

Right now the engine mounts will allow the engine to ossilate 1/2 inch in either direction. Given the style of mount that is used the mounts are on the tilt of crossmember. If I used the style mount from the 50's and 60's chevy I would be able to use an oil filled mount which would be still softer. I like the idea of adding a 2-stage mount on the engine. In fact I am using this on my trans. But given the tunnel clearance that these cars have I wouldn't be able to use this set up on the engine.

Now in order to do the islolation on the cross member. That wouldn't be a wise choice because it would rock the whole car when turning the wheels Since all the suspension and steering is mounted to the k-member. Not to mention it would also create more twist in the front end. Also extra stress on the idler are and steering box. I would definately dampen the vibration though.

Mathius

So you're basing your design on the Corvette frame? Is that what you're saying? I'm not sure I'd recommend actually using, or modifying a Corvette frame.

My first question would be, is it strong enough for what you have in mind. Remember, the Corvette was built for HP and Torque, but it's also based on a fiberglass body design, i.e. less weight than a steel body. So there is probably an engineering dispute there. I'm not saying it ISN'T strong enough for what you intend, I just don't know.

I have read about people using Corvette frames for kit cars. Of course the Corvette frame design would let you run an IRS if you wanted to.

I think a scratch built would be better.

Here is an extreme design, the G-Force Cuda (http://g-forcecuda.com/gallery/)


IMO, this is the most immaculate car I've ever seen. This thing was built from the ground up to prefection, for the simple fact that every piece was redesigned slightly to fit what the owner wanted. I don't know if this is _my_ personal idea of what a Cuda should be like, but this is how I would build a car. Every piece custom and hand crafted to how I wanted it.

Here's a good example of the X-Member I was talking to you about:


That one is available from Art Morrison. The X-Member provides a huge amount of strengthening to the center of your frame, because it's builds on the principle that the triangle is the strongest shape.

Remember, whatever you design, make sure you still base it on the width and wheel base of the Camaro body. You can play with the Width a little bit, but unless you're going to stretch or widen the body, you don't want to change the width much, or your wheels will stick out oddly, or not fit at all. You don't want to change the wheelbase at all, or your wheels won't be centered in the wheel wells.

If you build your front end based on the design of another car, like your Nova idea, it gives you the option of using stock replacement parts if something is broken.

I don't know much about them, but maybe a Mustang II setup would be ideal for the front for the simple fact that it has a lot more aftermarket support than a Nova front clip will have, and from my understanding, the setups aren't that different.

Mathius

Mathius

Here is a shot of John Parson's Nova I was talking about in an earlier post as well:


As you can see, he eventually opted to weld the body right to the frame. But you could use some of the same basic ideas and still use bushings if you chose to.

The best part is, John is an actual poster (and I think moderator) at Protouring.com, which means he is actually available to ask questions. He's a regular guy just like you and I, he doesn't own a shop or anything like that, so he has time to actually answer questions about how he did his.

His car has been featured in PHR about 3 times that I know of, and I'm sure it was in other publications as well.

Mathius

Mathius

Lastly, maybe these will come in handy for some preliminary designing. Who knows?

Just a few of many handy references I've picked up over the years.

Mathius

jhyneman

I wasn't going to use a corvette frame but I was using that picture as a example. I completly agree with you. Starting from the ground up is the way to go. I will probally start my complex tear down and rebuild better in the next couple of months. Providing everything goes as planned.
Jhyneman

NomadTA

iTrader: (1)

If you able to do the fab then why not build a custom K-member that gives you more room (I don't think the aftermarket ones gain any under engine space) between the engine and the K-member and then build a cradle between the two. That way the engine is mounted/isolated to the cradle which is then mounted/isolated to the K-member. You can then tune the two sets of mounts for different RPM/frequency isolation.

I think you said it smooths out past 1200 which means you are currently tuned for highr frequencies.

Mathius

I hate to keep bringing up another board, but this should be helpful information to this thread:

http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38625

Mathius

ghettocruiser

iTrader: (4)

Just some more visuals for the diesel idea.... I love this car.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...51101842729641


http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...13330707759731

Might try tracking that fellow down and seeing what his vibe issue is like...and what he did to combat it.

J.

jhyneman

That is great. I love it too. I just haven't gotten to the performance mods because I am getting to much SHAKE, RATTLE, then ROLL. I did look at a couple of grand nationals at the junk yard just yesterday. So happens that they came with a full frame and the ones that were subframed had a full subframe all the way through the car. These cars are much more sturdy than these f-bodys.

MPNolin

Wow! I think the Blastolene brothers might just say that's Cool!
Very cool swap!

I've been thinking about your frame and vibration problem.

You could put in a 8 or 10 point rollcage. This would make things stronger and limit the amount of harmonics the unibody would allow.

Fluid filled motor mounts could work.

Dynamat or similar acoustic damping materal would help.

Some new cars have a product, similar to expanding foam, put in the unibody to help diminish vibrations

Car companys spend plenty on NVH research and application.
Everyone seems to like quieter and smoother cars...

The Harley sportster is much better since they put in rubber motor mounts.
They would shake your fillings loose even a few years ago when the V-Twin was still bolted to the frame...

Very Cool car because it is so different and you accually did it.
Wow!

MPNolin

Also, take a look at how Buell does thier motor mounts.

They have a large soft mount with links like panard bars that allow the engine to move in a single plane.

Big soft rubber mounts with a "dog bone" (or two) bolted to the head that acts like a torque strap (see front wheel drive stuff) could work...

mr.southtown73

i like it. diesels are the way of the future. ignition combustion engines have poor torque, are innefficient, and preignition prone. i know a guy who builds diesels in west olive mich, and he built up a couple trucks and horsepower is not a problem. check this girl out. http://videos.streetfire.net/video/e...5701642943.htm

Anomaly

sorry for getting a bit off topic, but about how much does the 3.9L diesel weigh?

jhyneman

The engine weighs about 650 lbs. The engine is 36 inches tall and is 4 inches longer than a chevy 350. Thanks for all the links to diesel vids. Some great clips. But back on track. What do you all think about using something like a epoxy truck bed liner on the subframe and under body to absorb some of the vibration. I know it will stiffen the car up to.

jwscab

your best bet is probably to isolate the front k member and add another level of damping to the trans crossmember. soft rubber on the mount, and then harder mount from the crossmember to chassis. since the camaro crossmember is a tiny little thing hard bolted to the floor, thats probably your issue, it sits in a spot where the chassis has the least about of reinforcement(like smacking the dead middle of a box or guitar body, for instance.) any virbation will be amplified.

removing the k member and adding some rubber mounting to it won't effect the handling too much. you will in effect make it act like a 2nd gen camaro/bird. same basic design at that point. so you would basically have the engine and trans disconnected from the cabin with 2 levels of isolation. the only gotcha might be the column transferring vibration, although the rag joint is pretty good about that.

I'm not saying a full frame wouldn't be effective, its just a huge amount of work that would probably acheive the same results as above. it's your time/money, so it's your call. Think about it. the easiest way to add a full frame would be to put the car on lifts, and cut the entire floor out. brace as needed. design a full frame that fits underneath, tie it into each side of the body, and then totally rebuild the floor. that's ALOT of work for what might be minimal gain.

2fast4u92z

This car is set up for 25.2 so it has a huge cage too but you get the idea and there is allso a GN they did with way more under car "framing". But buddy Joe's shop out in Troy Michigan Stenod performance.

http://www.stenodperformance.com/gallery/

slow_90firebird

I didnt know they made G-bodys in unibody constriction. I know they use the old Monte SS in Nascar because it was the last full-frame passenger car GM made. However, I assumed all the pontiac and buick verisons were framed too.

You can pick up a used Monte Carlo SS for almost as cheap as a thirdgen these days. Not trying to get you out of your car, but if things dont work out, that is always another option.

2fast4u92z

Yeah you are right but it shows how they used tubes to make it stronger. They have done many cars like that. My fav. is Dirtys 25.2 or harlans both black firebirds.

slow_90firebird

Well, I think even without the tubes, a framed car would be better than a unibody for a diesel.

However, I dont think an f-body should be put on a frame. I think there are plenty of other things you can do to stiffen it up, other than a whole frame.

My last car was a W-body, FWD monte carlo (1995). It had the engine in a big steel cradle like a box, made out of frame. The cradle was bolted to the body with 4 big rubber donut bushings. The front struts had the coil springs over them from the factory. LCA's bolted to the cradle. Steered fine and drove fine on the road. Although, it couldnt even compare to my firebird in terms of handling. But it was a real comfy ride.

jhyneman

I think were are getting somewhere. I liked the link to Stenodperformance. That is helpful. This is along the right lines. The illustration used of a guitar box is a great way to explain the vibration but I would take it a little farther to the extent of a drum. Now this is why I am questioning the use of a spray on epoxy liner. Many foreign manufactorers have been using a rubberized coating to sound deadin their cars. I am thinking that with the use of a spay on liner it would sound deadin the car but also prevent cracks from forming in the metal. Guys were talking about vibration not body flex. Big bass cars are known to crack welds This is problem we are dealing with. The best solution I have heard yet is to try to isolate the k-member. This is a great thought but my consern is that by doing that I am now lessining the integrity of both the k-member and the unibody. The k-members on this car are not like the old camaros. The old camaros actually had a unboltable front frame section that was isolated from the subframe.

1983Fbody

Good job on the diesel swap, very cool! Glad to finally see someone with enough ***** to do it, there's a few old posts that bench raced this idea.

We are going opposite directions with our projects. I'm trying to eliminate the frame, my el camino has gone from a one piece body to seperate cab/ bed w/ truck frame and now it's going to solid unibody tube chassis. **I haven't noticed any difference in engine related vibrations by changing how the body is mounted. Whether the cab is solid to the frame or there's 3" of rubber in between hasn't made any noticeable change. **What did make a huge difference was having a couple of worn out plug wires. I wonder how much of your shake could be eliminated by balancing and weight matching your engine components including flywheel/balancer pistons/rods, etc. That frito truck engine had to have some pretty big "allowables" when it left the factory how many other engines of the same type have you seen/ drove to compare it to?

Isolating engine harmonics or eliminating them seems to be the biggest problem and most of the possivle solutions have already been mentioned..

Using two different types of rubber or polyurethane for each engine mount should absorb different types of harmonics, same theory as the gel engine mounts I suppose, try a stiff mount at the engine/ soft mount at the frame. This theory could apply to the car's structure as well. Mixing round and square tubing of different thickness would deflect/absorb/dampen more than using same material throughout.

Is the engine running as smooth as it could? Dirty injectors and a dozen other things could cause more shake.. Try for simple solutions first (before you go through a hundred cut-off wheels and 60lbs. of welding wire!), is the exhaust causing too much back pressure? Fuel line too small?

As for chassis flex, what can I say that hasn't been said before- I assumed you'd put in a roll cage or no? Door posts were a weak area on the el camino body, the thirdgen looks to be tied in a good bit more in that spot. Ttops you've already mentioned, that's one place I would spend some time with bracing. Have you read chassis engineering? A couple areas to improve when building third gen race cars I've noticed: Strut towers are weak, needs more exhaust clearance, a lower seating position (6'0+ guys notice this), and engine setback would also be a nicety. Then the transxmember/suspension mounts tied into a strong tunnel or backbone (in your case tie into the frame). I just don't think the seperate frame will solve your vibration probelm though. You're better off to further isolate the engine/trans from the car to get some level of comfort back. Hockey puck and drill press are your friends. You're in uncharted territory for sure. Drawing everything out and then making full size models of large parts of something easy to shape/ weld/ and cheap like 3/8" rerod (rebar) is good practice.

Edit- I think you're on the right track. Have you seen the linex demonstration w/ the concrete block? They drop one uncoated block from about 30ft. and it literally explodes into bits. Then the coated block drops, bounces, then lands undamaged. I'd unbolt the front kmember and have that coated seperately as well as trans x member.

Uglybronco

iTrader: (2)

Hmmm, I don't remember if you mentioned it or not but does the vibration go away at higher RPM? I'm just wondering because all this frame stiffening & building talk could likely be pissing in the wind.

This is why I say that: My dad has two Case backhoes with virtually the same motor as the one in your car. They are tuned a bit different for their application but have the same basic long block.

One of them is an early 80s model and it will vibrate you off the damn thing when the RPMS drop... idle it up a bit with the hand throttle and its pretty smooth, no Caddy but still pretty smooth. Now this is a 11,000 or so pound machine and it will virbrate it from front to back with both buckets & stabilizers on the ground with no problem.

Now maybe yours doesn't vibrate like this but & I'm just typing on for no reason but oh well. We also have a newer backhoe with the same engine that is turbocharged & doesn't vibrate hardly at all at any speed. Plus a dozer & trackhoe with the 6-cyl. version. I remember having the dozer idle cranked way down & it barely vibrated. The trackhoe is computer controlled & does its own thing & runs very smooth.

Ok so back on track here, maybe the problem is within the engine on both your car & that old machine, I need to look into it actually on mine, whether its the motor mounts or something not running right or it not being balanced well.

So if you're willing to live with that much vibration & are just trying to get the car to hold up to it I suggest building a strut tower brace that ties into the firewall & do the frame connectors & a cage for the stiffening effects if not for safety. Then try to isolate the engine the best you can, because if it shakes like that old backhoe then its gonna do a number on a 4K lb car no matter what you do.

antman89iroc

Well here's a truly unique application. I think it's cool transplanting powertrains into whatever vehicle you want. It's one of the basic foundations of hot rodding itself. Typically a larger, more powerfull engine is shoehorned into a small-er car platform. But it's always done with a goal in mind. Normally it's done to improve straight line performance. This one is a little different... but the goal is still improved performance. I'm not here to judge your "why" or your choice of powerplants, that's your business.

Although diesel's are vibration prone, it has been my experiance when I've had problems with vibration that something is hitting somewhere. Sometimes a "little" clearance can let a component move just enough to hit something else, making the movement into a pounding action. It needs to be mounted solidly enough to control the movement but allowed to move (i.e. rubber mounts) enough to dampen the vibration.

Now, on to the question at hand. How to isolate this high compression diesel so it won't shake the T-tops out. There's been the normal suggestions (e.g. SFC's, tower braces etc) and I think they all have their place in your design. This whole package is going to need some reinforcement. You've suggested a full frame to isolate the engine. Another suggestion that may solve your problem and not be QUITE AS extensive as a full frame is to use a half frame (sub-frame) from one of the GM cars such as 2nd gen Camaro's and Novas. This way you could "gut" the front half and not have to worry about dealing with the rear suspension. It can still be fully isolated and MAY be a little closer diminsionally to what the 3rd gen will require (track width, steering gear location etc) And there's a excellent selection of parts, motor mounts brakes and the like. Naturally the uni-body will have to be reinforced enough to handle the stress of the bolted on sub-frame. This is where body reinforcement such as tieing the front and rear halves (SFC's) together and tower braces may come into play. I'm not suggesting that you tie your newly installed bolt in sub-frame to the car. Rather you may end up with sub-frame like connectors in the underbody to provide mounting for the 2nd gen sub-frame.

Anyway, just a suggestion. Hope it spons more "crazy" ideas for you. Whether anyone loves it or hates it one thing is for sure, you gotta get some people with astonished looks when you fire that thing up at Sonic!

Firebird_dave7

I have a few suggestions if you havent made your mind up yet, pm me if interested. But i do have to say that is real cool man good job!!!

Forshock 85TA

wow. not really helping but, what mileage do you get? 0-60 est? awesome idea/job though

good luck

Vanilla Sky

iTrader: (1)

Being that I've been in the minitruck camp for a while, I don't see this as the least bit impossible. Cut out the floor pan and build a channeled frame. Mod the K-member to bolt to the frame instead of the body. Build up a back half and you've got it. Seems rather simple to me, and it half surprises me that it's not done more often.

Good to see that there are some good ideas being tossed out, though. I just don't think your typical Camaro strengthening will do anything for you.

jhyneman

Well it has been a while since I have posted anything. I have gotten so busy at work and some other things that I just haven't gotten a chance to start anything on the bird. Vanilla Sky You have the same idea that I have. I am considering channeling the car. I am however thinking that a x frame may work the best now that I have done some studying.
----------
I just noticed a couple of questions that I haven't answered. The car currently gets 32 city and 40+ highway. I don't have any 0 to 60 times yet but the car takes off like the stock 2.8L that I ripped out.

doc221978

I think the project is a good idea.... something new that no one has tried before. As for your vibration, the problem may not stem from the mounts. If any of the cylinders have low compression or not getting proper fuel it makes a big difference in idle and power. If you checked compression, fuel pressure and injector pump flow you may find an easily fixable problem. I used to drive a frieghtliner with a 50-series detroit deisel... injector pump caused the same problem.

I always wanted to try swapping that 50-series and eaton 9 speed split into a 1-ton chevy truck chassis... never got the nerve. I guess it may have been possible although weight would have been a larger issue. That engine at the tires got 420 hp and 1380 lbs. Desiels can make some amazing power.

I am not saying don't frame it..... I would love to see pictures of that when it's done. Very creative and interesting.

Burban350

hah I had to join just to say that I actually threw this idea at my friend a year or so ago LOL He just laughed, since most of my ideas are so off the wall :P I recommended something a little less strange, one in a S-10 Blazer/Pickup. I know he'd love to do it, he has a 91 6BT that has ungodly amounts of torque for only having a off-road turbo (of a dump truck, pulling 36psi), straight exhaust and the injection pump just SLIGHTLY cranked up (literally). The 4BT I believe is basically a 2cyl less 6BT, and if so, they handle 60psi no problem. Cummins tech over the phone (we called Cummins for EGT Qs) that they handle 60psi, so it's not hearsay!

As a couple have already pointed out (to the idiot with 10K posts who said 700hp is just BS), it's not hard to make insane power from a diesel anymore.

To help with the problem, sorry, I don't have any suggestion. My only suggestion is with the intake setup. I'd run a small intercooler and then that'd plumb the intake tube towards the front, instead of way over the valve covers. If anything, run it around the front of the engine between the radiator and motor. And an Holset HX25 should be nice upgrade for that 4BT

I love torque, diesels offer that, and I love F-Bodies. So I share you passion for doing this! Kudos for actually having the money and resources to do it!

And as for the transmission, I think you should look into running a TR-6060 and having it beefed up to handle that power
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tremec_...0_transmission

GL, hope you're around to see the suggestions :P

sketchy

iTrader: (3)

i havent read all of the ideas above, thats alot of material but if you belive that thoes gel frame isolator things work you can simply unbolt your K member, get longer bolts, and put the spacers between the k member and the bolts. this will make your engine sit lower in the car and then maby you can also do stut tower brace and third/4th engine mount.

jhyneman

I hate to break it to you all but I have decided to pull the engine out of my 89 and use it in a more useful place. The car has been stripped completly and is nothing but a shell. I am selling the shell w/o the hood. Any one intrested let me know. This will give me a chance to fix up my 91 GTA and make it look nice. The seats are in need of upulstry and the paint has the famous GM Canser and the engine is tired. Needs some freshining up.

Twin_Turbo

iTrader: (25)

The corvette frame is not torsionally stiff at all, in fact it's like a wet noodle, You need height and triangulation to get a stiff chassis, a roll cage/spaceframe is the best way to get that. A large X across the frame helps somewhat but height and triangulation will do a lot more.

This is what I did to my corvette frame to make it stiff. Exact same frame as you posted (apart from that it used an alu batwing mounted differential)







Note that it all ties into the suspension points and everything is triangulated and most of the sections are nested together. (and yes it's rusty and that black steel shell you see, that's the birdcage.....the stuff under the fiberglass)

As for fiberglass body, the corvette has a steel birdcage that the fiberglass panels are bonded to. The cage is bolted to the frame with bushings(solid alu for C2 & early C3, later use rubber). Also, fiberglass is not lighter weight than steel, that's a myth. The Corette body is pretty ehavy and the glass is pretty thick. Especially on the later cars. A 79 will weigh right around 3500lbs

As for bolting up the suspension, the C2 & C3 irs is a POS! A trailing arm suspension with a horrible camber curve, a too high roll center causing jacking and horrible toe oversteer.

If you want to build something, build something that works. Adding crap here and some more there does nothing.

Uglybronco

iTrader: (2)

Whoa that looks FUN!!! Can I drive?

kcb37

If you look into Camaro Racing history,
Don't know when this started or whatnot.
But the IROC came from the International Race of Champions, if I remeber correctly.
What I don't remeber is if these were factory cars or not. But the race cars, (not a factory productions IROC street car) had a full tube chassis.
You may be able to find a blueprint for one. I remeber reading about an 84.

SIEB77

sorry to hear that you gave up on the idea. I was really looking forward to see what you would come up with. Way to go on the attempt. Anyone and everyone does the basics like the lt1, built small block, etc, etc. A nice change to see someone thinking outside the norm. Just wish I had the ambition to try something that radical. I myself seem to be following the basic norm as most do though.

omnipotentgoku

iTrader: (1)

You may have given up on the idea, but please post more pics so that I can post them in the gallery at http://badassiroc.com for proof of the attempt. I have the other 2 you posted. Please post any progress pics etc.

jack_sparrow

iTrader: (1)

ATTENTION SONIX:

As a mechanical engineer one of the most basic things that was first pounded into my head when I got into my higher level classes on day one, was this:

HP = (TQ * RPM)/5252

HP is just a number derived from the Torque equation, and torque is a rotational force. Force is all that really matters to a car guy, because force is what gets you down the track and accelerating. Screw HP, its just a number derived from an equation. Yes it is important, but HP is manipulated from torque. An engine with 700 ft-lbs of torque is gonna have a S**T load of HP too.

Brett

jhyneman

Well as of right now this is the story. I don't have a garage, don't have the time to completly tare the car down to do this kind of mod. In time I will more than likely do it again. The 4bt is getting placed in the durango and eventually I may manage to shove a chevy 6.5 in the bird. The 6.5 is much smoother due to the more cyl. and can turn many more RPM's. it is more the hotrod diesel of american motors.

Gordiggz

Let me start by saying congrats on breaking the mold.

If I wanted to do this, here's how:

I'd buy an 80's G-body. Rip the body off. The frame will hold most everything you already have worked so hard to fabricate as far as the motor goes. Plus, it's already built, is easily stiffened with homemade braces at the end of each framerail. Then i'd add a 'cage structure and cut and paste the panels onto it.

Also remember, the sway bars and rims you have will swap over.

Sure it'd be alot harder than it sounds. But, consider the resources if you get stuck on a problem or whatever. Think oval street stock.

Plus those guys that make the lifted 4x4 bogger camaro's, and whatever they do, might be worth looking at.

Just some ideas to get the brain juices flowin'

Mathius

I don't know that I'd just jump in and grab a G-Body, but the basic idea is sound. If you're gonna use an existing frame, the smart thing to do would be to start measuring wheel bases first, or you're going to end up totally changing the proportions of the vehicle.

Darryl Starbird once took a 95 Lincoln Mark VIII frame and threw a '41 Lincoln Mercury body on it. He ended up having to stretch the car 6" and widen it 6" to fit the frame. He did it, because he wanted it to be custom, and he thought it would look good, but the idea of putting an f-body on a frame is still to retain the look of an f-body, not go for something custom. Plus the amount of work to do that is insane. You have to make sure every panel is going to line up perfectly, and then create a patch that goes down the entire center of the vehicle, and width of the vehicle.

Mathius

Gordiggz

I was thinking more race-car style than practical. Like full rollcage, no real interior type car, just for the sake of the conversation. I also have a pretty hot fire burning under my butt to build a dirt streetstock right now so I guess thats where my head is at.

jhyneman

Well since I have the entire car stripped right now and am not planning to do anything with it. I have a clean shell with title I'll sell

cusz28

A 6.5 in an f-body? I'm lead to believe any diesel motor is better than that hunk of crap. as far as a diesel swap into anything, you have two choices, Duramax or cummins. I was debating swapping a dmax in my camaro at one point, it's not much larger than a small block, and is capable of about 1000hp daily driven. not enough power? you can crank a cummins straight six to about 1500hp before it spits the stock crank out the bottom. double the numbers for torque. I realized swapping a diesel into an fbody would be sweet, but not feasible. theres barely enough room for a small block, not to mention the sheer torque would rip the car apart. You would HAVE to put the car on a frame for that kind of power. Is there really a problem with that? Run a perimeter frame fitted and welded to the underside of the car? Hell, then you can run any cage you want, even hack everything forward the firewall and tube it in.

The_Wraith

The 6.5 is a good motor I have seen them with crazy amounts of mileage. The 6.2 on the other hand was a turd.

Zfenix

Does anyone know where I can get floor pans for my 91 fb?

jhyneman

I have a parts car shell sitting on my trailer that I am planning to sell for scrap money. The floor boards are almost perfect on it. where are you located?

superT

iTrader: (1)

hey man idea was cool sorry it didn't work out