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Good afternoon y'all, It's cheez it back at it.
So in the process of changing out the spark plugs we accidentally broke this piece of emissions crap on the drivers side. I think it's called the AIR bracket but I'm not sure (forgive me I'm new to all of this). I can't seem to find the bracket for sale anywhere without the manifold. Can this even be removed and if so how horrible is it. Also, where can I even buy it? Sorry for the multiple posts, I just want this car going. My friend suggests we weld it but I'm not sure. Any ideas? Car threw a 44 code as soon as the duct tape melted off of it.
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It is just an A.I.R. tube. Not too difficult to remove/install. You're lucky that it's the driver side so you have more room and accessibility. The four nuts can be reached with wrenches or a crow foot. I recommend using a line wrench or the flare nut crow foot. I've seen those nuts elongate. There are people here on TGO all the time that are removing them and tossing them. Post a thread on the Wanted section and you should be able to score some fairly cheap.
Oh, soak them in Knocker Loose or your prefered penetrant for a day or two before you try to remove them just to help them break free easier.
Is it the AIR tube or the check valve that is damaged? Hard to tell from the photo. If just the check valve, those are available new from RockAuto for $15.
Is it the AIR tube or the check valve that is damaged? Hard to tell from the photo. If just the check valve, those are available new from RockAuto for $15.
Its the AIR tube, the check valve insides are all rusted out too.
Clean off the glue residue from the tape and JB weld it!
We don't talk about the glue That was from a very stupid but at the time, very improvised idea to just move it outside the garage to see if it ran right. (it did before it started farting and showing the SES). I might just end up JB welding it for the time being while we move it outside to clean up the garage.
Its looking like it won't be coming out without messing up the manifold and I'm not looking forward to the headache. We will be welding it to the valve and calling it a day.
Did you soak some penetrant before you tried to get them out? I removed mine, but it took a couple days of penetrant to soak in, and then I used a line wrench to get them off without warping the bolt head.
I did not. I don't know if I should mess with them since the exposed threads by Cyl 1 look bad, REALLY bad. I can give it a shot though. For now I'm looking at lubricant reviews since I'm not too fond of PB blaster so might try liquid wrench.
I read a bunch of articles and videos and this one consistently ranked pretty high. I used it to get my manifolds off and again to get those air lines off the manifold without damaging them. I sprayed a fair amount on the threads manifold bolts and on the threads of the air tubes once or twice a day for a couple days. All the manifold bolts came out surprisingly easy. I was really impressed with that stuff.
Like I said above, make sure you use either a line wrench, or a flare nut crow foot on the air tube bolts/nuts/whatever you want to call them. That will help prevent the bolt head from stretching/rounding out. When I removed the tubes from a set of manifolds I was swapping in, I could tell that a previous owner tried to remove them with a regular wrench because the nut was oblong. Have patience, they will come out.
I read a bunch of articles and videos and this one consistently ranked pretty high. I used it to get my manifolds off and again to get those air lines off the manifold without damaging them. I sprayed a fair amount on the threads manifold bolts and on the threads of the air tubes once or twice a day for a couple days. All the manifold bolts came out surprisingly easy. I was really impressed with that stuff.
Like I said above, make sure you use either a line wrench, or a flare nut crow foot on the air tube bolts/nuts/whatever you want to call them. That will help prevent the bolt head from stretching/rounding out. When I removed the tubes from a set of manifolds I was swapping in, I could tell that a previous owner tried to remove them with a regular wrench because the nut was oblong. Have patience, they will come out.
20 dollars a can is still cheaper than the 450 dollars I was quoted to removed them. I'll pick up a can on Monday and soak it through the week.
20 dollars a can is still cheaper than the 450 dollars I was quoted to removed them. I'll pick up a can on Monday and soak it through the week.
Hit the threads with it once or twice a day for a few days and let it get in there. I was really impressed with that stuff. Then make sure you use a line wrench and/or flare nut crow foot so you don't elongate the head. It will be on there pretty tight, so just go slow and it will eventually give way. It might seem intimidating, but I'm sure you can do this. Do you have the replacement tubes yet?
Hit the threads with it once or twice a day for a few days and let it get in there. I was really impressed with that stuff. Then make sure you use a line wrench and/or flare nut crow foot so you don't elongate the head. It will be on there pretty tight, so just go slow and it will eventually give way. It might seem intimidating, but I'm sure you can do this. Do you have the replacement tubes yet?
I donut have them yet. They're on Amazon but I did order the can of knock. Here's my main concern, if it's possible to take it off, wouldn't that damage the threads? Or break the gunk thats keeping it together? The muffler shops i went to seemed pretty scared of it from inspecting it and both gave me the same speech of possibly damaging the manifold and making it worse. I'm still down to do it if you guys think its possible but I'm having my doubts. Realistically how bad is it to just weld the air tube and the valve together and then just wrapping it with JB with what we can't reach. It's a half-a** repair but the risk seems a little high for some goofy emissions equipment. Ideally I'd want to properly fix this.
It all depends on your comfort level. Soak the crap out of those threads and have patience. Go slow and use steady pressure, but don't go hog wild on them. It will take some pressure, but they'll give way eventually.
My $.02, from someone that has removed these things multiple times.
Don't try to save them, I don't know what they're made of (some sort of stainless but it acts like chrome covered steel when you try to weld it). Soak the fittings down with whatever penetrant makes you feel better (I've never run across anything that works significantly better than anything else, they're all about the same, they all don't really work). Working around those things is just a pain in the butt and will take 10x longer than it has to. Instead, find all the cutting tools that are convenient (my goto is a small airsaw, but a dremel, reciprocating saw, angle grinder, hacksaw... all can work), move anything that is in the way out of the way and cut all the tubes off as close to the fitting as possible, remove the tube assembly. Grab a well fitting 6pt socket, put it on a breaker bar, slide it over the hex on the fitting and just tap it back and forth gently until it starts moving on its own, swap for a ratchet, and back them out. If you're patient they'll all come out without much of a hassle and without messing up the manifold.
If you need to reinstall the air lines for emissions then get a new set and slather them in high temp anti-seize (nickel is best, copper second best, and the standard stuff will work in a pinch), both on the threads and on the tubes where they go into the fittings, typically you break stuff with these things when the tubes/tube flairs rust to the inside of the fitting, and re-install. You'll curse the antiseize, it will get everywhere, but if you ever need to take it apart again you'll be glad you did it.
If you don't have to re-install (even if the car has to go through emissions if you do a neat job of removing the lines and still have the air line going to the cat you'll pass and most won't know they're missing), I'd consider plugging the holes- eliminating those things makes jobs like spark plug swapps 100x easier. Most use 1/4NPT pipe plugs, which will fit and seal, but NPT plugs have tapered threads and are specifically designed to bind up in the threads and seal. The original fittings are not tapered, the are the same thread as what is on an 1/4NPT plug but straight (I believe they're 1/2-20, but just to be safe, take one of those cut off fittings with you to a hardware store to confirm), and get yourself either some short correct thread bolts or even better some "grub screws" (allen head drive but they don't have any heads) and thread them into the holes and let them bottom against the seat in the bottom of the hole. Again, whatever you use coat them with anti sieze so you can back them out if you have to (like for example in this area something this old doesn't go through an emissions inspection, but if you move somewhere that does require it or regulations change you don't want any more of a headache re-installing the tubes than necessary).
My $.02, from someone that has removed these things multiple times.
Don't try to save them, I don't know what they're made of (some sort of stainless but it acts like chrome covered steel when you try to weld it). Soak the fittings down with whatever penetrant makes you feel better (I've never run across anything that works significantly better than anything else, they're all about the same, they all don't really work). Working around those things is just a pain in the butt and will take 10x longer than it has to. Instead, find all the cutting tools that are convenient (my goto is a small airsaw, but a dremel, reciprocating saw, angle grinder, hacksaw... all can work), move anything that is in the way out of the way and cut all the tubes off as close to the fitting as possible, remove the tube assembly. Grab a well fitting 6pt socket, put it on a breaker bar, slide it over the hex on the fitting and just tap it back and forth gently until it starts moving on its own, swap for a ratchet, and back them out. If you're patient they'll all come out without much of a hassle and without messing up the manifold.
If you need to reinstall the air lines for emissions then get a new set and slather them in high temp anti-seize (nickel is best, copper second best, and the standard stuff will work in a pinch), both on the threads and on the tubes where they go into the fittings, typically you break stuff with these things when the tubes/tube flairs rust to the inside of the fitting, and re-install. You'll curse the antiseize, it will get everywhere, but if you ever need to take it apart again you'll be glad you did it.
If you don't have to re-install (even if the car has to go through emissions if you do a neat job of removing the lines and still have the air line going to the cat you'll pass and most won't know they're missing), I'd consider plugging the holes- eliminating those things makes jobs like spark plug swapps 100x easier. Most use 1/4NPT pipe plugs, which will fit and seal, but NPT plugs have tapered threads and are specifically designed to bind up in the threads and seal. The original fittings are not tapered, the are the same thread as what is on an 1/4NPT plug but straight (I believe they're 1/2-20, but just to be safe, take one of those cut off fittings with you to a hardware store to confirm), and get yourself either some short correct thread bolts or even better some "grub screws" (allen head drive but they don't have any heads) and thread them into the holes and let them bottom against the seat in the bottom of the hole. Again, whatever you use coat them with anti sieze so you can back them out if you have to (like for example in this area something this old doesn't go through an emissions inspection, but if you move somewhere that does require it or regulations change you don't want any more of a headache re-installing the tubes than necessary).
I see both your point of view and blacksunshines. I will go ahead and soak it with the pentrant tomorrow and through out the week since I also think it probably wont hold the weld. My friend whos also removed these things believes the risk of messing up the manifold is somewhat high so he thinks it worth a shot to weld. I think my game plan here is to give it a shot first and if it fails I'll go the route of the crowsfoot and line wrench, if it becomes too much of a headache (which it probably will) Ill just cut them off and follow your game plan. I guess its just process of elimination. These tubes are a pain.
The major problem is not getting the fittings to turn, the problem is that when you do the tube/flair sticks to the fitting, and the tube gets all twisted up. Maybe it's the first one, maybe it's the 4th... the more time you spent carefully getting them out the more you'll be annoyed that you did.
The fittings are pretty soft, there's no way you get them out with a crow's foot, and it will be marginal with all but the best flair wrenches. If you insist on getting them out in one piece I suggest removing the manifolds from the engine, it's actually less work to get the manifolds off than it is to get those fittings out in one piece, I've removed a couple of sets completely assembled.
What exactly are you expecting to damage on the exhaust manifolds?
They're cast iron. Except for cracking from heat cycling they don't break. You can break bolts and studs, but none of that is involved in getting the air tubes out. You can give them to a chimp with a sledge hammer and besides a few hammer marks it will come back the same.
The fittings are pretty soft, there's no way you get them out with a crow's foot, and it will be marginal with all but the best flair wrenches.
You've been 100% correct on everyting you've said, except that. Yes it is very much possible to remove them with a crow foot and/or line wrench. That's exactly how I got mine off.
I also with you on not understanding how his friend thinks he's going to damage the manifold removing those tubes.
You've been 100% correct on everyting you've said, except that. Yes it is very much possible to remove them with a crow foot and/or line wrench. That's exactly how I got mine off.
I also with you on not understanding how his friend thinks he's going to damage the manifold removing those tubes.
The big fear from us and the shops was messing up the threads. But from both you guys experience I think it's possible to not mess them up if done carefully. I bought the dremel tool kit to cut them off if the crowfoot and line wrench don't work. I also needed it since I'm using the wire wheel to clean the tube before the welding attempt
Lots of good advice and experience here and there are options.
If I was tackling this issue, I would go at it in steps and each step being more involved and more cost. Depending on timeline and how long the car can be down (i.e. is it the sole source of transportation?), I would probably buy all of the parts ahead of time and return what I didn't use.
The check valve, AIR tubes, cast iron manifolds, gaskets and hardware are all available new from RockAuto.
I would first try to tackle the check valve. The threads on the AIR pipe might be fine and just replacing the check valve solves the issue. Easy and done.
If the AIR tube threads are buggered, or the tube is cracked, then proceed with removing the AIR tubes from the manifolds. A crows foot or line wrench might work, or it might not. I would be in agreement with others that suggested just cut the tubes at the manifold fittings and get a socket on there. At that point the AIR tubes are trash anyway, so no reason to be careful with them.
If for whatever reason you can't get the fittings out of the manifolds (I agree you won't hurt the manifolds, but may just round the fittings to the point you can't extract them or break them off in the manifold), then just replace the manifolds.
Just A Note The New Check Valve Is Completely Different Than The Factory Bigger OD, Shorter, And The Pipe End Is Much Larger I Was Able To Find A Factory Valve When I Did Mine
Just A Note The New Check Valve Is Completely Different Than The Factory Bigger OD, Shorter, And The Pipe End Much Larger I Was Able To Find A Factory Valve When I Did Mine
They look different, but the new ones will fit just fine.
Just A Note The New Check Valve Is Completely Different Than The Factory Bigger OD, Shorter, And The Pipe End Much Larger I Was Able To Find A Factory Valve When I Did Mine
Did the new one end up working or did you use the Factory one you found. Also of curiosity, did you also cut the tubes to remove them?
You've been 100% correct on everyting you've said, except that. Yes it is very much possible to remove them with a crow foot and/or line wrench. That's exactly how I got mine off.
I also with you on not understanding how his friend thinks he's going to damage the manifold removing those tubes.
I'll let you know how the flare nut and line wrench work out on Saturday.
Alright yall....I might catch some heat from this but the welding worked. We went to town on the valve and tube with a wire wheel to clean up the glue and gunk and covered everything else as to not get molten steel on it lol. For those who might read this in the future, I wouldn't recommend doing this as getting the underside of the tube wasn't fun. But if you have the skills and patience it worked for us. Thanks for the advice blacksunshine, transam and GT. I'm new to messing around with this stuff so getting to see different ways of going about fixing this helped.
03-04-2024, 08:50 PM
That was from a very stupid but at the time, very improvised idea to just move it outside the garage to see if it ran right. (it did before it started farting and showing the SES). I might just end up JB welding it for the time being while we move it outside to clean up the garage. 
