1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Hey Rich, which beast?

Parrydise7

iTrader: (1)

LOL

David 91RS/Z28

Great work 89! I'm starting to see how the box will come together on your car. Hopefully you will still have the other y-pipe to do a comparison test. Can't wait to see the finish product!

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I will have both setups. I will have a setup without the termination boxes because they will be out to the welder for final assembly and then on to be ceramic coated inside and out.

In the meantime I will run a standard system so I will be able to dyno it both ways. That way we will know for sure.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Couple of more photos. I have made a little more progress on the passenger side box. Here are the photos.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Hows flow going to be affected by such sharp turns and such? Seems to me you'd want to avoid those bends but on our cars you kinda need them.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

If all goes well the collector pipe itself will have a bend to it on the end and direct the gas flow in the proper direction. The end of the collector pipe should be right around the big opening.

The length of the collector pipe is critical so I have little room to play with length wise. I don't want to go shorter which I'm not but I can play with the length somewhat but we are talking no more than an inch. I'm redesigning the passenger side header to give me some more options. Thank goodness for the tubular K-member.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Couple of more pictures showing the orientation of things with the tubular k-member. Looks like I will have plenty of room to get things installed.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

wow that does free up some space. looks good so far

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

If one was to build a turbo charged car he might want to look into tubular K-member for the extra room to run things.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You have some good points...

hotrod16105

I recall giving that advice once.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Update: I have pushed the exhaust termination box for the drivers side a little further. I'm waiting on my short block to be done so pushing other things as far as I can. So I have closed off one end. The collector pipe will enter from the other end. The idea is to keep the flat sides to a minimum. It looks like the end where the exhaust collector pipe enters will be flat but that will be it. Here are the progress pictures.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Are your gonna dyno this thing before and after? I cant wait to see how this turns out

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

The way the installation is going to turn out yes. I might also do an engine dyno test. The final step is to fit the exhaust termination boxes on the car and then take then off to be thermal coated.

I will have temporary pieces of exhaust pipe installed so at that time I can put the car on the chasis dyno. When the boxes are finished with the thermal coating I can put them back in and go to the chasis dyno and see what the results are. We will have a direct AB comparison.

Also while on the engine dyno I plan to run a test between the long tube engine dyno headers and the short tube headers that will actually be used on the car. The results should be interesting.

skinny z

Will you use this opportunity to experiment with different collector lengths?

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

No, I plan on going with what PipeMax says to use. From what I have read he is pretty close. I will also use that length of collector on the engine dyno. Also the headers and everything are base on the calculations from PipeMax.

skinny z

I think I've read somewhere that you've been road testing your latest combo.
Anything to report regarding the termination boxes?

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Not the latest motor. It is still being "built" at the machine shop. That progress is in slow motion. What I have done is install my 4L60E transmission and a few other goodies to reduce weight.

We are going to the LA Invasion drag races this Monday the 25th. So I will see what times I can wring out of the present motor. I have the transmission set up to shift around 6400rpm. That alone should net me better times and the 70 pound weight reduction will help. I also have gone to the Hoosier Street radial tires. They are each 7 pounds lighter plus a little stickier tire than the MT street radials I was running. That should cut down on the rotating weight some.

My last best was 12.29 in the quarter. I'm hoping for 12 teens and maybe more depending on the weather conditions. If it was a sea level track and good air I might be able to push an 11.99.

I can't tell you how much I love the 4L60E. It is night and day compared to the 700R4.

skinny z

The first 4L60E was my next choice if the 700 didn't hold together.
However this time around the trans seems to be holding up and shifting better than any 700 I've had in the past ( thanks to the Trans Go Reprogramming kit ).
Good luck in your pursuit of 11's.
We'll be watching.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Cant wait to see it. That old motor you have is a stout combo. Cant wait to see the new setup

camarozz383

iTrader: (2)

hurry up and get it finished!! we want to see it, and hear it.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

We are probably 6 months away. I have to wait for the machine shop to finish up my motor and that is the big hold up. Then I will bolt the tubular k-member to the new motor.

At that point we can make up the custom headers so the exhaust termination boxes will fit. The back and forth will take some time. Maybe even the first of next year before it is all said and done. Then I have my smog check at the end of this year. So that will play into things some.

I have pushed things along about as far as I can. All the parts are at the machine shop so the onus is on them.

By the way with the new motor I'm not only looking for an increase in power but for the power to hang on for maybe a 7000rpm shift point. If all this comes to pass then I will have quite abit more power "under the curve" than on the current motor. So the average horsepower in the rpm range that I will be operating in going down the track should be substantially higher.

Did I tell everyone I love the 4L60E?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

7000 rpm shift point and smog legal cali style.... thats just crazy

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I almost forgot. The plan is once I get the motor from the machine shop we are going to put it on an engine dyno. I will use a Victor Jr. intake manifold and it looks like a Dominator carburetor. I have to borrow these parts from some friends. This should give me an idea of what the motor is capable of.

I think my current intake system should flow very similiar to the moded Victor Jr plus my moded TPI will have slightly longer runners for more torque.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Latest drag race results are in this thread.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/sout...ml#post4169500

skinny z

Just curious if you've made any progress on the termination boxes. Looking over your track times perhaps you'll find your 11.99 ( if you haven't already ) in a tuned exhaust.
After my somewhat dissapointing dyno results, I'm convinced now more than ever that there's horsepower and torque to be had in a properly spec'd exhaust.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Actually a lot is happening. I found out with my last run at the drag strip my posi was not working. Waiting on the shims to correct that. With that corrected and a couple of other things I should be able to get a 11.99. Don is currently in the middle of reworking my exhaust system so that the exhaust termination boxes will go right in when the time comes. I have to modify the one that goes under the passenger seat somewhat so everything including the cats will fit.

We have installed my custom rear transmission support bracket so that the new exhaust routing will clear and not drag on the ground and every penny. I have decided to go to a 3" pipe out of the termination boxes to the 3" catalytic converters and onto a 3"x3"x 3.5" wye.

My new motor was finally done at the machine shop and has been fully assembled and prepped for the engine dyno. It was run on a test stand to make sure everything was in order before the dyno. I will put it on the engine dyno this Wednesday and post the results. During the dyno runs I will also compare my chassis headers to the dyno headers to see how much hp I will be losing.

There is no way my headers will be a direct match to the engine dyno headers with the compromises that have to be made to fit everything in the car and fit in the exhaust termination boxes. Also we will change out the dino oil to Mobil One and see what happens. I will post up the results Wednesday.

By the way I will be using a Victor Jr and an 800cfm carb on the dyno. I figure my First intake system flows more than the Victor Jr. So when the motor is finally installed in the car it will be interesting to see what the rwhp will be. I can lock and unlock the converter for the chasis dyno.

skinny z

I would love to see the dyno header spec. If you can, do you intend to take your Pipe Max data to the dyno? It would interesting to see if incoprporating Pipe Max into the test would result in additional hp or torque. ( Unless of course the dyno headers already have the optimal length. ) I've thought about building some means of changing the collector length conveniently during an active chassis dyno test however it looks like a lot of work.
I say 15% +/- on my set up.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I have used PipeMax to configure my short/mid length headers and collector dimensions. I will just use what ever the 1 3/4" dyno header are. I will not try to maximize them as they are not mine.

PipeMax also has a program to estimate the horsepower. For accuracy it depends on the VE of the motor and I don't know what that is. I used 104% as a middle of the road figure. At 104% VE that comes out to 520hp at the crank. That will get me lower to mid 11's at the track.

Regarding your car or anyone else's for that matter the collector is the all important dimension. Have you had your car on a chasis dyno? Just wonder how much tuning you have done.

skinny z

I have the Pipe Max program as well and find the VE value to be misleading. After all, if you have a well tuned intake and/or exhaust then your VE will be higher and so it goes.
I have been on the dyno and my tune is spot on regarding my AFR's.
What I know for certain is that my single 400cfm(?) Flowmaster muffler is preventing me realizing the full HP potential of my combination. ( Remember that 2.2cfm/hp of exhaust flow is required before the exhaust becomes a limitation in developing full HP )
A properly tuned termination box system will help me to achieve open header performance while on the street although I would be happy to find the perfect collector length that lets me see that potential even if only uncorking the collectors while at the track.
For those that might read this and argue that open headers killed their performance, remember that this is regarding a TUNED collector length based on relevant engine data and a specifed header secondary size.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"my single 400cfm(?) Flowmaster muffler is preventing me"

I could not agree more. You need to do something in that area. I'm running a 3.5" Magnaflow myself. You can see right through the muffler.

skinny z

A couple of questions.
Do have any flow data on your Magnaflow?
Is it loud?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I would have assumed 100% VE is about the most a n/a motor will get, although some say it can hit more but those are more race oriented motors

Either way I still think you will make plenty of power to go 11's

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

My Magnaflow muffler is #12909. Figuring 142cfm per square inch that works out to around 1300cfm. That will get it done. We were all surprised as to how quiet the muffler is until you nail the pedal to the metal then it wakes up.

Hi Orr. To get above 100% VE you need a tuned exhaust and induction system. This will help fill the cylinder during overlap and increase the VE by wave tuning and the suction created by a properly designed exhaust system. This is one of the reasons for the exhaust termination boxes. Come Wednesday I will find out the potential VE of this motor.

skinny z

Interestingly, that's the point of the terminator box or more exactly, a properly tuned exhaust system. With complete combustion chamber scavenging your VE goes up accordingly. It doesn't have to be race oriented engine, just well designed.
That's where the power comes from.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Saw this posted today on another forum. Again this is what I'm trying to accomplish with the exhaust termination boxes.

"Just finished an airflow class here at Ferris State University. To better answer the OP's question, yes a VE of more than 100% is very easily attainable. To be exact 130% is the max theoretical VE by using both the intake and exhaust pulses. On the intake side the first pulse is not usable but it is generally accepted that the second pulse is the most desirable. It has the most positive pressure and as long as the intake valve opens at the right time. As previously stated intake runner length plays a major role in which pulse you can utilize and at which RPM it is most effective. The exhaust side also uses pulse but they are negative pressures. The first pulse is the most desireble in this case. Header design plays a major role as you may imagine. Primary lengths can be determined by an equation that I have but dont know how in depth you want me to get. When designing the headers, it is possible to create an over-scavenging effect. This is when the negative pressure actually pulls some of the fresh air fuel charge out the exhaust, increasing brake specific fuel consumption(BSFC). Well I gotta run to my next class but I hope this helped. It really is amazing how in depth you can get when discussing airflow through an engine."

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

It has been awhile but here is the latest. Car is in the shop getting the latest headers installed and the exhaust termination boxes. This is from around noon today but here are some progress pictures. Everything fits. Also these are the headers that were used during the engine dyno pull. So everything is now together from that day. Hopefully the termination boxes will simulate the open headers from the dyno pull. One is located right in front of the oil pan and the other is on the right side of the vehicle.

skinny z

This should be very interesting.
It looks as though there is a difference in the length of the "secondary" pipes. Is it a significant amount? Do you anticipate anything unusual with respect to the tuning?

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"It looks as though there is a difference in the length of the "secondary" pipes"

I assume you are talking about the length of the actual collector pipes. They were going to be exactly the same but I decided to broaden the "exhaust tune" ever so slightly. The one on the passenger side is about 16.5" in length and does extend into the exhaust termination box so not all is visible and the pictures may be distorting the view somewhat. The one going into the passenger side box is about 17" in length and also extends into the box about an inch or so.

I don't know on the tune. However I am having Kevin retune the car this Saturday for a couple of reasons. One is for the changes if any but the biggest is I want to up the fuel pressure to 4 bar or around 58PSI. I only upped the size of the injectors from Bosch ll 30# to Bosch lll 32#. I am trying to keep the injectors as small as posible for the given horsepower. With the added fuel pressure I am hoping for slightly better atomization and to cover any posible horsepower increases and still maintain a maximum of 80% duty cycle.

skinny z

If the theory holds true and your design is sound (and it certainly appears to be) then I would anticipate a change in the tune right around the point where the exhaust scavenging starts to improve the volumetric efficiency.
I hope you will post results.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"I hope you will post results"

I will, but as usually the case there are other changes in the mix so the results will not be clear cut. However if the power is above average then we can attribute some of that to the exhaust termination boxes. Anyway you cut it the exhaust should not be holding back the motor.

skinny z

Well, Vizard has stated that there may be as much as a 20% (!) improvement depending on how efficient the exhaust system was to begin with. From what I recall about your setup, you've been pretty thorough with your design.
Good luck.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

I would settle for 20 horsepower. The installation is complete. We fired the car up today but did not drive it. The sound is a little different. In my mind a little bit quieter. Dyno Don thought it had a "tinny" sound to it. That might be but if so it is not bad. I will have to give it a day or so to report on the sound. Kevin will do some tuning as we drive it around tomorrow. On to the dyno.

TA

iTrader: (1)

Bummer, I have to work again tomorrow, or I would drive out to Don's to see how things look/sound for myself. Best of luck Alan. My experiments have brought mixed results so far, but you get a lot of strikes and base hits before you hit a homer.

TA

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"but you get a lot of strikes and base hits before you hit a homer."

Ain't that the truth. I am still trying to wrap my mind around the intake systems for our cars as I feel that is the most fertile ground for improvement. Hopefully with this exhaust system I have the overlap period covered at least the best I can.

Than that leaves the air inertia or "ram air" for the next part of the cylinder filling phase from EVC to BDC. Then from BDC to IVC that leaves the intake "wave tuning". I think I have that part right. Maybe, hahahaha.

So I think it is the middle area from EVC to BDC on the intake stroke that I might have to work on.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Couple of things from today's driving and tuning. As to the sound from the rear it sounds normal but maybe quieter. Going down the highway it is pretty quiet and I like that. Standing on the side you can hear a slight "tinny" noise but IMHO not bad. We will have to wait for the dyno results for a thumbs up or down on this mod.

I had a factory torque converter installed and my Yank PY-4000 shipped off to Yank to be re-done as an SS-4000. I will be using the factory torque converter to tune with on the dyno as a broader range of the rpm spectrum will be available seeing as I am unable to lock up the torque converter for some reason.

Regarding the tuning something very interesting happened today and maybe should have its own thread. The main reason for the re-tune was I wanted to up the fuel pressure from around 45PSI to 58PSI to give me plenty of wiggle room on the dyno depending on how much horsepower the motor will make. 58psi should be able to support up to 550hp at the motor on my setup.

Edit: One more thing hahahahaha. Anyways we had an incident while tuning the car and it went into the "limp home" mode. The car acually drove pretty good in the limp home mode. I was surprised considering all the mods that have been done to it. I have had it do this before and the engine did not run as good. Maybe that 58psi thing, hehehehe.

With the factory torque converter it forced the motor to idle around 700rpm from the usual 800rpm with the 4000rpm stall converter. Before the tune the motor would do it but was not happy. After we upped the pressure to 58psi the idle actually got better. In fact not bad at all. When I went to start the car that part got better. Before I would have to hold the gas somewhat to start it. By the way these are Bosch lll injectors. So maybe with the increased fuel pressure the atomization is better for a more complete burn. Whatever my motor sure liked it.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Update: Took the car out for some driving today as I put the "street" shifts points back into the transmission ECM. I had a modified program for the dyno so that it would not downshift. Anyways while I was testing things out I took the car right up to 6500rpm in second with no problems. Before you could feel the power start to flatline above 5500 as shown on the dyno. No more.

So maybe it was the torque converter that was causing me problems with the new motor and the extra power? If so that problem will be solved as I have sent it back to be changed. I still have the same problem of the tires wanting to break loose at speed in second gear. When and if I get my 17x11" rims that problem will be solved. I can't wait for the next dyno session.

TA

iTrader: (1)

Interesting Alan:
I also have Bosch series III, so maybe in need to crank up my fuel pressure as well. The car idles poorly at best, but I think I have an ignition gremlin somewhere as well.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

It would be interesting if you car also idled better with the higher fuel pressure. Then we would be on to something for sure. Maybe with the better burn it would help in passing smog. That along with the ignition fixes you should be there.