Venom_1138

A local mechanic has a complete 350 Vortec engine out of a late 90's Chevy pickup he said he'd sell to me for $200. He had a project he was going to put it into, but said he has too many things going on and just wants it out of his shop. It was pulled running with approximately 150k miles on it, because the customer put a bigger engine into the truck it was pulled from.

I'm fairly competent with a wrench (most days, at least), but I've never built an entire engine before. However given the cost of a shipped crate engine compared to the initial cost of this Vortec, I'm considering trying my hand at building this back up myself, and from what I've come to understand lurking around this forum for the past few weeks and watching some builds on YouTube, it's not incredibly complicated to do if you just keep a clear head about it. However, like anything worth doing, it needs to be done right so I'm making sure I'm taking everything into account before I pull the trigger and find myself with an engine block taking up space in my garage, an annoyed wife wanting to know how much longer she has to stare at it after 6 months, and a wrench embedded in the wall during a fit of rage because I buggered something up and created a very large paperweight.

First off, I'm going to talk to the mechanic and ask him if he'll at least take it back if it comes back from the machine shop with cracks in the block. The way I see it, I'll have just paid for him to know whether the block is good after the shop magnafluxes it, so he can sell it for scrap and still at least come out with some cash in his pocket. I'll be down however much the machine shop charges for the magnaflux job, but at least I wouldn't own a $200 cracked engine block that will maybe get me $20 at the metal recyclers. As long as the engine proves good after the magnaflux, I'll have it bored and honed at the shop before continuing on.

As I understand things (and if I misunderstand them, please correct me), what fits on a 305 will also fit on a 350, so my 2 year-old starter with a lifetime warranty from Autozone should mount up just the same? I know a starter isn't expensive, but if it has a lifetime warranty, why not just swap it over instead of buying another? I'm also contemplating just taking my car's Quadrajet carb and putting it on the 350 at first. I've read that I will need a specific intake manifold for Vortec heads, but otherwise my carb should still bolt up, correct? I know there are better manifolds and carb combos out there, but as I'm going to be mating this up to my (to quote sofakingdom) weeeeeak T5 transmission for the short term, I don't need to add every bit of horsepower I can get out of the build right from the start. I just want an engine with better performance, better compression, and something that doesn't both leak and burn oil. (although Red Devil seriously did a great job reducing the leak issue) More horsepower can and will come later, for now this is just an opportunity to make a reasonable improvement in performance as well as not have my car leave a cloud of blue smoke every time I sit at a stop light with a warmed-up engine. -Not having my engine constantly covered in a layer of oily grime will also be a welcome change.

I will need a new cam, and it will make sense to upgrade to new aluminum flat-top pistons since doing so at any other point will require the engine to be pulled again, so those are going on the shopping list. Since I'm keeping the "weeeeak T5" for the time being, I know I'll need to replace the flywheel since the 305 has the 2-piece seal and this 350 will have a 1-piece seal. The Vortec heads are a good option as I understand things, so I'll be keeping those instead of buying new ones, at least for now. Stock headers are heading to the scrap pile, and I'll be replacing those with some shorty headers.

I rebuilt the timing on my Ford 5.4 Triton engine a few years ago, and asked a mechanic who was the friend of a friend if he recommended changing out the lifters since I was already that far into the engine. He said that as long as the hydraulic lifters looked good when I took the engine apart, there was no need to replace them. So unless there's damage or excessive wear to the lifters, there shouldn't be any reason to buy new... or is there? So far as I can tell, my existing distributer is working just fine so that should be able to carry over to the new engine as well, unless of course there's good reason to replace it.

This is as far as I've gotten myself on writing out my preliminary shopping list for parts. I know some of this could be subject to change once I buy the engine and get a more complete look inside, and I left off the external engine items like new water pump, alternator, etc. Right now I'm trying to get a budget and a plan for the rebuild figured out in advance before I pull the trigger on the engine, just so I know what I'm getting myself into before committing to the project. I've probably overlooked a few items, so if anybody has any advice for either items I didn't address or even some specific part recommendations, I'd love to hear any input. Thanks!

Logan Bryant

The starter dilemma kinda depends on what flexplate, or flywheel in your case, you have. There is a 168 tooth and a 153 tooth flexplate that gm makes. Unless you have a starter that works on both, usually most mini starters will, you may need a new one. Also with the heads, depending on the lift, you will want to replace your valve springs or get the seats cut down. I ran GM performance ls6 springs on my vortec heads. When you use new pistons, you should get the rotating assembly re balanced. Also with the 1pc rear main seal, the flywheel has a weight on it because it is external balance. The 1pc rear main seals are internal/external balanced. Depending on the rest of your setup, I am running a comp 12-246-3. I am running four relief flat top pistons, a weiand carbed intake, and the rest of the engine is stock. So far, that car has been 11.89 at 115. I went to a hydraulic flat tappet set up, and got rid of the roller setup, but since the rollers don't wear like the flat tappets, I would assume you could keep the lifters.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

I'd recommend leaving the pistons alone if at all possible. If the bores don't need work, then the pistons don't either, as far as the "repair" aspect. And most EFI motors are MUCH easier on the bores than the carbed motors of days gone by; we never really realized it back then, but excess fuel from carbs is where most of the bore wear came from.

My suggestion would be, pop the heads off regardless; you'll want to get a valve job at the bare minimum, anyway. The LS6 springs are an excellent choice for a relatively mild cam, or PAC1218 (same form factor, just more spring) for a steeper one. DEFINITELY retain the roller system. If the bores aren't worn, i.e. if you can still see cross-hatching and there's no "step" at the top, then don't mess with them.

The truck oil pan may not fit your chassis. You'll need the stock pan from one of these cars, 86 up. Same for the flywheel; the one you have won't fit that motor, you'll need the stock one for a 86-up one of these cars. There are 2; you'll probably want the lightweight one.

If your carb is still in good shape you can easily re-use it, it will work fine on a relatively mild 350. Anything up to around 220° of intake duration @ .050" will work OK. Since Vortec heads have all this great intake flow, but the same sucky exhaust port as any other GM heads, you'll want at least 8° more exh duration than intake, preferably 10°, but preferably not more lift since it doesn't really do any good and just stresses parts more. Something like 218°/228° @ .050", .510"/.495", maybe 270°/280° or thereabouts advertised duration. If you opt for an off-the-shelf cam, the Comp XR270HR, or the Lunati Voodoo that's just smaller than that in "specs", is as close as you're going to be able to get.

The intake is a problem. Your current one WILL NOT work, nor will the truck one. Here's why yours won't work:



It's FAR MORE THAN a matter of "drill bolt holes. I don't know of any really good spreadbore intakes for Vortec heads. About the best you can get is the Edelbrock Performer 2116, but it's ... just a Performer. Oh well.

My choice for a distributor would be a Performance Distributors DUI. Your stock one is probably about wore out.

While you have the oil pan off, put in a new oil pump. Yerbasic Melling M55-A, with a IS55-E intermediate shaft.

Fuel pump is another problem. Ahem, another opportunity for a solution. The truck block doesn't support a mechanical fuel pump. I'd suggest an electric with a regulator of course; ideally you'd want the pump in the rear, and the best place for the regulator is probably on the frame rail right near where the existing mech pump is, so that it'll hook easily to all of the lines. DO NOT use rubber line and hose clamps between the regulator and the carb, or between the pump and regulator if you can help it!!! For the flexible sections Id recommend the braided-stainless line with PTFE core.

I wouldn't bother with an alternator unless you already know yours is dying. If it works, run it. Same for the starter, your current one should bolt up and work, to the extent that those Sone Age POSs that came on our cars ever do. If it does what they usually do, which is, crank real slow and run the batt down so fast you only get one good shot at starting the car, get the one for the truck the motor came from; say, 98 Silverado.

One of the worst things you can do is cheeeeeep headers. I think you may already have experienced this to some extent by your comments on the matter. There are very few thigns in the world that will give you more headaches, both figuratively AND literally, than cheeeep headers. Check out Dyno Don's. Have them ceramic coated. Replace the exhaust at the same time; My choice would be the Hooker one, with a 3" in/out cat. The cat costs virtually nothing in performance and will make the car noticeably "cleaner" to drive, as well as, it makes all the other parts FIT, which are designed to accommodate a cat. If not a cat, put in a Vibrant resonator of the same dimensions.

The money you DON'T spend on messing with the short block will pay for the exhaust, cam, etc.

Venom_1138

When sofakingdom posts, I make damn sure I listen.

That's really good to know, I guess I'll just wait to see what the machine shop says before I go running off to buy new pistons. Interesting that the difference between EFI and a carbed engine can cause more wear on an engine's bore.

While I don't want to go ***** to the wall on horsepower while I have the *ahem* weeeeeak T5 bolted up, I do plan on someday putting in a T56 and squeezing some more performance out of the drivetrain. So I'll probably go for less mild on the cam, so the PAC1218's will probably be better in the long run. Your comment on the roller lifters is very similar to what that mechanic told me when I was working on my truck's timing system, so it's always nice to have a second opinion to reinforce the first one.

Also very good to know about the oil pan, definitely something I missed and I'm glad you pointed out. So the stock flywheel for an 86-up F-Body will work with the Vortec, but used F-bodies aren't that common around here, so I'm probably looking at buying a new flywheel. Any recommendations or brands to avoid?

I rebuilt my carb when I first bought the car, so it's still pretty serviceable. I'll put a better one in later on when I'm ready to put more power to the road after the T5 has been replaced. I would like to go with as much of an aggressive cam as I can get away with, not to say that a different cam can't be put in at a later time if necessary.

Once again, very good to know, and even better to have a part # to work with.

My stock one still works, but it probably is nearing the end. And if a distributor is endorsed by sofakingdom, it's gotta be good.

Melling definitely makes good oil pumps. I didn't have it in my write-up above, but that was something I would have done. I put a Melling oil pump in my truck when I rebuilt the timing, much better oil flow than the OEM pump provided.

I was actually wondering about that, I didn't think that a mechanical fuel pump would be on a newer engine. So to put the pump in the rear, am I looking at having to drop the gas tank to install it? When you're referring to where the existing mech pump on the frame rail, is there a second pump at the rear of the car from the gas tank? Trying to envision the exact location you're describing.

My current starter is a rebuilt one from Autozone, and is only 2 years old. If it will work for this engine, I'll just swap it over. My alternator still works, but I was thinking of maybe getting one with a bit higher output. When I'm driving at night with my headlights on, my blinkers tend to be incredibly slow unless the engine is revving, and even then blink slower than they normally do without the lights on. Actually, if I come to a dead stop, sometimes I have to give the car a little gas to bump up the RPM's so there's enough current to make it blink because the turn signal will just get stuck in the on position and won't blink off.

I thankfully haven't had header issues on my car, but I know the stock headers aren't even worth their weight in the scrap pile, plus new aftermarket headers means no more AIR pump and tubes to clutter up my engine bay. I've heard lots of good reviews about the Dyno Don's on here, along with a few other brands, and I definitely don't intend to buy any set of "eBay Mystery Headers" made in China by a "company" nobody has ever heard of, built with metal from recycled soup cans. The lesson that I learned a long time ago: Buy once, cry once. Better to buy something more expensive but better quality than to buy cheap, and have to replace it again later on.

I definitely can't argue with that logic!

I'm going to try and get over to his shop on Monday to take a look at the engine up close. The only other challenge I have is how I'll get it out of my truck and onto the engine stand so I can start stripping it down to just the bare block to take to the machine shop for inspection. I don't have a cherry picker, and renting one is a 50-mile round trip, so if anyone has any MacGyver-inspired solutions for how to easily get an engine block out of a truck bed onto an engine stand while preserving one's back and toes, I'm all ears.

USMC3782

build a frame around the truck bed, 2 posts on each side nailed together and a cross beam with a come along. lift it up and drive the truck out. Been there myself

USMC3782

any updates here?

Venom_1138

Nothing really to update yet, unfortunately. I decided that my life was not nearly exciting enough, so I spent last fall/winter working on remodeling my house and testing the limits on my marriage. The good news is my marriage survived and our house looks better, but unfortunately I haven't gotten anywhere notable on my rebuild just yet aside from getting the block on my engine stand and starting to pull it apart to get it ready for the machine shop. It's hotter than blazes right now and my garage isn't insulated, so I've kind of been drawing out the teardown over the past week. It's not really a long process, but the garage takes forever to cool down and I can't leave the doors open because we live fairly close to a river and that just rings the dinner bell for the local mosquito population. So far it's just been whatever I'm willing to do for about 15-20 minutes at a stretch.

I did end up going with a different block than the one I mentioned above: there was apparently an incident at the shop that resulted in the block getting dropped and sustaining damage before I ever got to lay eyes on it. Winter was coming up and I had my trip to the insanity ward house remodel project starting up, so I put that on the back burner. Back in January, I was poking around on Facebook and found a guy selling a '96 Vortec engine without heads for $90, so that's the block I'll be using for this project. I haven't bought any of the parts for it just yet because I want to get it to the machine shop and see what I'm working with so I can try to get all my necessary parts ordered in one shot.

I'll update again once I get it hot tanked, honed and anything else the machine shop needs to do.

Venom_1138

Did some more cleaning of the block last night, and decided to pop the oil plug and let it drizzle out overnight so I can completely flip it over today without making a huge mess everywhere. A few drips of oil came out... and then more came out looking like it was being dispensed by a frozen yogurt machine. Thick globs of engine sludge began to ooze out of the oil drain, followed by some more watery dripping. Finally the biggest glob of sludge came out and immediately behind that the block poured out either oil-tainted water or antifreeze. Not a lot, if I had to guess it would have been less than a cup overall, but who knows how much was originally in there and could have evaporated?

Tonight I'm going to completely flip the block over and remove the oil pan, although after that incident I'm not sure how concerned I should be just yet. There is some kind of build up on the inside of the cylinders, although I'm not going to go to heroics to remove it. I'll let the machine shop do that when they hone and bore it. There is a scratch in at least one of the cylinder walls, it doesn't feel too deep, but as I understand things, that's going to require the block to be bored out. I'm just hoping that the engine sludge incident from last night is the worst of any surprises in store for me on this engine block. I've only encountered small amounts of surface rust, and I could rotate the assembly by hand, so it's at least not seized. The seller said it had some rod knock which is why it was pulled, although he bought the engine from someone else because he wanted the cylinder heads but had to buy the whole engine to get them, so I'm going off of third-hand information.

I called a couple of machine shops to get estimates for my costs, and got two very different responses. The first shop sounded knowledgable, but he pretty quickly told me that Vortec heads were garbage and that I should find a set of TBI heads and avoid Vortec or aftermarket heads because they don't properly heat up the carburetor in the colder months. This was after I explained to him no less than 3 times that I don't have the heads for the engine. He also told me that the cam that was already in the engine was a good cam for what I wanted (although I don't recall ever getting the opportunity to even explain what vehicle this was going into or what I wanted the end result to be ). In the end, he threw me out a quote of $750-850 for "everything I needed to get the engine ready to go". I'll be honest, this conversation confused me a bit because it seemed to fly in the face of what I've heard in terms of the quality of Vortec heads, or why I would want to upgrade to a different cam, etc. Sofakingdom made a pretty good explanation about the benefits of a good aftermarket cam above, yet the machine shop guy was telling me that I want to keep the stock cam but just use it on the TBI heads. There was a lot more to the conversation, but he really went on and on about the TBI heads being better than spending $600+ on aftermarket heads, and how their 67 cc chamber was close to the old 70cc chamber from something else... it was a lot to take in all at once especially when he kept going on and on and I couldn't even take notes fast enough to keep up with half of what he said, but basically he was telling me that the heads made between 1985-1995 that I could "easily buy for a hundred bucks" were better than either Vortec heads or many of the aftermarket heads available. He told me earlier on in the call that I would want to go with flat top pistons if I was using the TBI heads, but then before hanging up he said something about definitely wanting to use a set of Vortec pistons. I hung up the phone almost feeling like I was in over my head rebuilding this engine, because he threw so much jargon and new information that went against so much of what I've already read/heard... it almost sounded like I should have just bought a crate engine.

Machine shop #2 on the other hand answered my questions directly: hot tank - $59, magnaflux - $59, boring all 8 cylinders if necessary - $280, install new cam bearings - $50 + cost of bearings, $42 to do the freeze plugs. All told, I'd be looking at around $500-ish, depending on the cost of bearings and whether the cylinders needed to be bored out. My wallet liked this price point a lot better, not to mention I had a detailed breakdown of what each service would cost instead of just a price range and little explanation as to what was included for the cost. Plus I liked talking to someone who didn't keep jumping off topic and straying further away from my initial questions.

Does anyone have any input to back up or refute anything the first engine shop had to say? I don't want to choose the cheapest option if the alternative does wind up being more knowledgable, especially since I don't want to go through the process of building an engine only to have it blow up on me because of an oversight I could have avoided. I'm probably overthinking things, but that first guy really got into my head. Maybe it's a sales tactic to convince people to just let him do the whole rebuild or something, but he definitely muddied the waters quite a bit when all I wanted was to know what he would charge me to hot tank, magnaflux and possibly bore out the engine.

Oil pan comes off tonight, plus the cam and maybe the pistons, depending on how much more cleaning I have to do on the inside after all that sludge from last night. I'll update again once I get inside the block and see the rest of what I'm working with.

Black 84 Z

Quite frankly it sounds like the first guy has some TBI heads he wants to sell but can't find a buyer. Just take a quick scan of different engine builds in this forum using the vortec heads versus TBI heads. I'll give you a hint, you'll find a ton using vortecs and very few if any with TBI type heads. I'd avoid him completely. Who knows what else he is being shady about.

USMC3782

i would go with shop 2 for their approach alone. as to the cam i am going to use the l31 with its factory cam for now in mine. its l98 power with 87 octane requirements. teh vortec heads will get teh spring upgrades when I do a cam but that will be down the road.

vorteciroc

The Torque-Curve produced by the Vortec-350 is not like the TPI-350 Torque-Curve.
Average Torque production is higher via the TPI-350...
However the Vortec-350 does a much better job producing Horsepower.

A freshened-up/ healthy stock Vortec-350 will pretty much always be good for 300 HP with ONLY Long-Tube Headers, and an Edelbrock Vortec Performer (Non-RPM) Air-Gap Intake-Manifold and Carburetor.
In the early 2000s, I sent about 3 Dozen freshened-up Vortec-350s just like this out of my Shop-Doors...
and many more with a little-bit of work good for 400 to 500 HP!

USMC3782

What were you doing to them? Mine is a fresh stock rebuild. It's not in so now would be the time.

vorteciroc

For what Power Level?

I can give you a general plan, or a detailed parts list depending on how much Power, you are looking to produce.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

I would substantially agree with vorteciroc's numbers. Stock, that motor was rated for something 250 - 260 HP ish; with the absolute stock parts, and reasonable attention to detail along with a better exhaust system, 300 seems reliably attainable. And, MANY people have reported numbers in excess of 400 HP with those heads in untouched condition, so I would think 450 HP with better valves, CORRECTLY DONE port work, well matched cam, good tuning, etc. is not out of reach.

The guy with the TBI heads is a scam artist, at best. A thief if not given the benefit of the doubt. RUN AWAY. The only possible excuse I can give for him is, he may have had trouble with Vortecs cracking. But, TBI heads are just as bad about that, so, even that is pretty lame. RUN AWAY.

Machine shop #2 seems more up-front. Their price for boring & honing is a bit too cheeeep though: ask him what he would charge to do it with a torque plate. Should add maybe $150 or so to the price. Personally I wouldn't have that done at all unless something is damaged: motors don't eat themselves the way they used to, therefore don't need repaired that way near as much as in days gone by. If you DO get it bored though, look for replacement pistons with an ACTUAL MEASURED "compression height" (distance from center of wrist pin to "surface" of piston top) of 1.56". DO NOT get ones that say 1.54", DO NOT get ones that say "designed to fit", DO NOT get ones that don't have a spec for this at all. Have your selected pistons in hand before having the bore work done, so that the shop can get the bore dia right (skirt clearance) for whatever the pistons you get require. They're NOT all the same, so matching the bore to the piston is IMPORTANT for best results.

The water thing, I don't think is too terribly scary. Most likely it just sat out in the rain for a bit. You can check a bearing or 2 for rust and make sure it's OK in that area, which if it hasn't run with the water in the pan, the bearings will probably still have oil in them and will be OK. The main thing to look for will be rust in the bores.

As far as overall price, it's AHELLUVALOT CHEEEEEPER to do it ONCE and get it RIGHT, than it is to half-a$$ it somehow (even unknowingly) and have to do it AGAIN, and THIS TIME do it right. Best to bite the bullet and do what it takes. Now, that said, EVERY motor doesn't need THE BEST of EVERY thing done to it; there's a point where all has been done that will produce further results, and anything more is a waste. Look up the word "muda" (Japanese) and pay attention to TIMWOOD: one of the Os is overprocessing, and it's just as wasteful in a one-off project situation, as it is in mass production. You want to get "enough" processing, but not "too much". (very technical. that)

Venom_1138

No updates as of late, I got sidetracked with fixing a few other issues: fixing the one headlight that wouldn't go up, putting in a new stereo and wiring it up with the proper components this time instead of twisting wires and "insulating" them with athletic tape like the previous owner did, and next up is replacing the sagging driver's door and replacing the broken detent rollers on both doors... and somewhere along the way, I need to replace the exhaust manifolds on my truck because one cracked, so I might be putting the rest of the teardown/preliminary cleaning off for a couple more weeks.

Lots of great information, and I'm glad to hear that others feel the first shop I called was blowing a bunch of smoke. He did talk about seeing "a lot" of cracked Vortec heads, but was talking like the TBI heads were practically bulletproof, and his shop has been around for a while, so I don't know exactly how scammy he is, but I definitely didn't enjoy my conversation with him. Particularly because he was not at all inclined to listen to half of what I said and would routinely talk over top of me. Shop #2 was much more conversational and listened to me instead of going on and on. I will take Sofa's advice about boring with a torque plate, if it's determined that the engine needs to be bored. Next time I'm in the garage and remember, I'll snap a few photos of the cylinder scratches in question.

I'm definitely willing to spend what is necessary to make sure that the end result is fully functional. If I have to cut costs somewhere, it will be to go with some less performance-centric parts. If I have to sacrifice a few horsepower for reliability to stay within my budget, that's fine. Coming from a 305, anything this engine puts out is going to be a step up, so as long as it runs well and can maintain reliability, that's always going to be my core goal. Every extra bit of horsepower that I get out of it is just an added bonus.

I'lll update again the next time I either get pictures or do any further work to it while getting it ready for the machine shop. This will pretty much be my build thread, so I'm going to keep any and all progress updated here. Thanks again to everyone for their input!

vorteciroc

At the Power Level that you are planning for, there is no need to sacrifice any HP for reliability.
The HP is low enough that you can easily build a very dependable Engine.

In regard to cracked used iron Cylinder-Heads...
The Vortec Heads have been one of the worst heads that I have dealt with.
However they are so extremely inexpensive, that it should not come as a surprise.

I do not usually go with used Vortec Heads... but you can have them Magnafluxed to test for cracks.
If none are found, do your best to maintain the Engine, be cautious of over-heating, and follow Torque recommendations during assembly.

I remember (in the mid-90s) when people were freaking-out over the New-LS1 Head flow numbers.
People don't realize, that they pretty much (ONLY)Flow identical to the Vortec Heads (until 0.500" Lift: Intake).
At that point (Stock) the Vortec Head dies, and the LS1 head continues to flow to 0.600".

But otherwise the LS1 Head Flows the same as the Vortec Head...
and the Port Velocity is worse on the LS1 Head.

USMC3782

I appreciate the information. I would like to have it all obviously but im wondering what power levels and driveability I can achieve with the stock cam. I have a decent set of hooker long tubes, summit's brand intake and a 650 holley. I have the summit brand distributor as well. Its about time to put the bird up for the winter and now that I have the garage heated getting the new fuel system installed will be the next task.

I would also be interested to see if there is a benefit to running a better than stock cam for a mild cruiser. It will have stock gears and a t56.