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Engine SwapEverything about swapping an engine into your Third Gen.....be it V6, V8, LTX/LSX, crate engine, etc. Pictures, questions, answers, and work logs.
I'm not yet ready for an engine swap yet but I am usually looking at options for when I am. The LS swap thing is always cool but I already have an LS1 RX-7 and I want to try something relatively uncommon. So, it seems to me that the ZZ6 EFI at 420 horses in a gen one SBC. All this and it's even about what could have come in the car new. sort of. What do you think?
I'm not yet ready for an engine swap yet but I am usually looking at options for when I am. The LS swap thing is always cool but I already have an LS1 RX-7 and I want to try something relatively uncommon. So, it seems to me that the ZZ6 EFI at 420 horses in a gen one SBC. All this and it's even about what could have come in the car new. sort of. What do you think?
I would love to do a ZZ6 in my Trans Am. If you've got the cash and are willing to spend it, go for it. Make sure your transmission and rear end is up to the task though.
I'm not yet ready for an engine swap yet but I am usually looking at options for when I am. The LS swap thing is always cool but I already have an LS1 RX-7 and I want to try something relatively uncommon. So, it seems to me that the ZZ6 EFI at 420 horses in a gen one SBC. All this and it's even about what could have come in the car new. sort of. What do you think?
Maybe I'm out of touch with current prices but that sure is a lot of money for a 350 crate engine.
Paying a premium for the Chevy Performance name on the crate, but if I had the cash I would do it vs. a blue print or some other dodgy reman outlet that might be a pile of garbage just to save $2k.
All this and it's even about what could have come in the car new. sort of. What do you think?
My own experience is nobody knows what engine you've got unless you tell them. In other words, you have to actively go out of your way to get people to look under your hood. So just run what works and enjoy the performance.
I can buy a new from GM LS3 complete sans controller for $7500 CANADIAN! Think about that. https://www.davischev.com/parts/acce...mance-engines/
If I didn't have so much tied up in the Gen 1 SBC infrastructure, that is most certainly the way I'd go. But with a top quality damper, SFI flexplate, Canton road racing oil pan, headers, etc., I'm not about to throw that away and then invest FURTHER in the LS related install bits.
Perhaps the OP has similar components.
But, yeah, the LS stuff is having the edge in dollar per HP now.
EDIT: I see the price has crept up to $7800. But still, under 6k USD.
It looks to me like this is priced about the same as a new LS minus the ECU on the LS. With EVERYONE putting LS's in everything, I'm guilty of an RX-7 conversion myself, that having an old school TB injected gen 1 kind of appeals to me as something more or less period correct. As far as the cost, Chevy builds lots of trouble free engines and has a respectable warranty. I have read , on this forum and others, about horror stories on when aftermarket stuff takes a dump and the warranty isn't worth the paper it's written on. I'm inclined on getting a new GM motor when I finally get to the engine part of my build whether it be Gen1 or LS.
Trouble is GM is charging far out the *** for the aluminum heads, valve covers, and the EFI system. There are alternatives that are as good or better for less money. If those exact parts are to your personal preferences, that's great. If you're open to alternatives there's money to be saved. If it's what you want, go for it. If you want to know why it's not a popular choice....
GMPP has a history of cooking up crate engines that would seem ideal to drop into thirdgens, which they then price beyond the thirdgen audience's budgets. The ZZ3/ZZ4 kit was the most reasonable and specific kit. I can count the number of them I've seen anyone actually install on one hand. The Ramjet was another shoe-in EFI SBC crate engine. Again it's too little for too much money. The ZZ6 EFI is just the latest in the series. Aside from bolting up to the motor mounts, trans, and accessory brackets the same, it's as far from the original TBI/TPI engines as an LS swap.
The idea of sticking with something sorta correct for the time is a bit of a stretch too. Anything that didn't come in the car is going to look out of place to anyone that knows what to look for. Those that don't know what to look for won't know an LS from a big block or 4cyl, or they won't care.
Trouble is GM is charging far out the *** for the aluminum heads, valve covers, and the EFI system. There are alternatives that are as good or better for less money. If those exact parts are to your personal preferences, that's great. If you're open to alternatives there's money to be saved. If it's what you want, go for it. If you want to know why it's not a popular choice....
GMPP has a history of cooking up crate engines that would seem ideal to drop into thirdgens, which they then price beyond the thirdgen audience's budgets. The ZZ3/ZZ4 kit was the most reasonable and specific kit. I can count the number of them I've seen anyone actually install on one hand. The Ramjet was another shoe-in EFI SBC crate engine. Again it's too little for too much money. The ZZ6 EFI is just the latest in the series. Aside from bolting up to the motor mounts, trans, and accessory brackets the same, it's as far from the original TBI/TPI engines as an LS swap.
The idea of sticking with something sorta correct for the time is a bit of a stretch too. Anything that didn't come in the car is going to look out of place to anyone that knows what to look for. Those that don't know what to look for won't know an LS from a big block or 4cyl, or they won't care.
Build what you like.
Personally I don't think the pricing is TOO far out of line. It's true you are paying a bit of a premium, but what else is available from a reputable company for a crate engine that is comparable in Gen 1 SBC form ? I would be glad to be informed because I am looking for a future crate engine myself.
Maybe my viewpoint is just skewed but I know people that will gladly put down the cost of a turn key ZZ6 EFI engine for a pair of front forks and rear shock on a sub $14k motorcycle to do laps around a road course for kicks. The ZZ6 is a little out of my budget for my T/A at the moment, but who knows what will happen in the next year or so. My total envisioned budget for my Trans Am was $20k. Sure, I could just buy a year old used Corolla for the money but what fun is that ?
Complete ready to drop in its really not horrible. Everything is brand new remember.
Id trust a GM crate before this stuff online you see. Those are solid engines in my opinion.
Sure you can do a longblock for 5k but all the other stuff will add up real fast.
If you get bored do a little headwork/cam and let her rip. Love Gen 1 power.
Just spitballing, without any bargain hunting or looking for better alternatives, just recreating the ZZ6 efi.... ZZ4 short block (ignore the 4, it's the same as the ZZ6 shortblock). Add a set of AFR heads, your choice of cam, and an EFI system, you're there.
ZZ4 Short block $2500
AFR heads $1700
Cam $400
Edelbrock Pro-flo 4 EFI $1700
-------------
Total $6300
That leaves you $1300 for valve covers, oil pump/pan/dipstick, damper, rockers, pushrods, head bolts, gaskets and so on. Potentially it could end up a bit more expensive if you go nuts, but I'd expect a little shopping around could save a bit. Go with a less expensive head, or less expensive efi system, and a person could come out further ahead.
Just spitballing, without any bargain hunting or looking for better alternatives, just recreating the ZZ6 efi.... ZZ4 short block (ignore the 4, it's the same as the ZZ6 shortblock). Add a set of AFR heads, your choice of cam, and an EFI system, you're there.
ZZ4 Short block $2500
AFR heads $1700
Cam $400
Edelbrock Pro-flo 4 EFI $1700
-------------
Total $6300
That leaves you $1300 for valve covers, oil pump/pan/dipstick, damper, rockers, pushrods, head bolts, gaskets and so on. Potentially it could end up a bit more expensive if you go nuts, but I'd expect a little shopping around could save a bit. Go with a less expensive head, or less expensive efi system, and a person could come out further ahead.
But that's just my opinion.
Fair enough. But not everyone has the expertise or tools to put a short block together. I've never messed with assembling a pushrod engine before and rather than make an expensive mistake, or pay some dubiously skilled "mechanic" to make the mistake for me I'm just going with a crate engine. If I had a junk engine to take apart and put back together a half dozen times beforehand I might attempt it, but I really don't have the space or time to do so. $1300 to ensure my lack of experience doesn't cause me any additional headaches or wasted money fixing something I broke is a small price to pay.
Those that don't know what to look for won't know an LS from a big block or 4cyl, or they won't care.
So true...saw an awesome 69 Camaro at a show yesterday with a well done LS conversion that was carb'd
Most wouldnt know what it was just a sbc that looked nice.
Who cares about trends they die off then what? Do what suits you dont follow the herd
Just spitballing, without any bargain hunting or looking for better alternatives, just recreating the ZZ6 efi.... ZZ4 short block (ignore the 4, it's the same as the ZZ6 shortblock). Add a set of AFR heads, your choice of cam, and an EFI system, you're there.
ZZ4 Short block $2500
AFR heads $1700
Cam $400
Edelbrock Pro-flo 4 EFI $1700
-------------
Total $6300
That leaves you $1300 for valve covers, oil pump/pan/dipstick, damper, rockers, pushrods, head bolts, gaskets and so on. Potentially it could end up a bit more expensive if you go nuts, but I'd expect a little shopping around could save a bit. Go with a less expensive head, or less expensive efi system, and a person could come out further ahead.
But that's just my opinion.
I like this idea. It gets a new bottom end with high end aftermarket stuff for only a little more money.
I'm not yet ready for an engine swap yet but I am usually looking at options for when I am. The LS swap thing is always cool but I already have an LS1 RX-7 and I want to try something relatively uncommon. So, it seems to me that the ZZ6 EFI at 420 horses in a gen one SBC. All this and it's even about what could have come in the car new. sort of. What do you think?
I did a ZZ3HO Swap and put my 305 TPI on it but it was never right it has sat for years but now I’m getting it going again but to be honest I’m almost thinking about a LS Swap and saying F*** it
I did a ZZ3HO Swap and put my 305 TPI on it but it was never right it has sat for years but now I’m getting it going again but to be honest I’m almost thinking about a LS Swap and saying F*** it
Wish you were closer. I'd buy that zz3 setup from you
sp350 is the same thing as zz6 at around 5k, if you already have a tpi all you'll need is a vortec intake either tpi stealth first or mini ram and everything should be plug and play
the zz4 short block build is also a good choice b/c you can use heads that arent a vortec intake port and keep it real budget
I have a ZZ6 base crate engine going into my 89' GTA. Carb intake, distributor and valve covers will be coming off and will be running TPI with an SDPC Vortec base and Accel runners and Dyno Don headers. Yes, it's an expensive way to go and I considered both an LS swap and various SBC builds. This seemed to be the option with the least amount of hassle and the reliability of a brand new GM motor.
Nice! But how much is a TPI even with an aftermarket base and runners etc going to choke down a ZZ6? Surely it's not going to reach the potential HP it'd be capable of with a basic 4bbl.
Nice! But how much is a TPI even with an aftermarket base and runners etc going to choke down a ZZ6? Surely it's not going to reach the potential HP it'd be capable of with a basic 4bbl.
No doubt it's not going to achieve the rated 405hp with TPI and I'm OK with that. I'm guessing it will be about 350-360hp and 425-450lb-ft torque with ported aftermarket TPI parts. A Miniram would also be a good option for this motor, I'm just partial to TPI.
I have a ZZ6 base crate engine going into my 89' GTA. Carb intake, distributor and valve covers will be coming off and will be running TPI with an SDPC Vortec base and Accel runners and Dyno Don headers. Yes, it's an expensive way to go and I considered both an LS swap and various SBC builds. This seemed to be the option with the least amount of hassle and the reliability of a brand new GM motor.
I'm digging this idea.....I'd like to do the same!
I may follow your lead on this.....I'd like to watch your build, will you be posting up pics, etc?
No doubt it's not going to achieve the rated 405hp with TPI and I'm OK with that. I'm guessing it will be about 350-360hp and 425-450lb-ft torque with ported aftermarket TPI parts. A Miniram would also be a good option for this motor, I'm just partial to TPI.
Does a mini ram bolt to those heads? How about a FIRST?
Looked it up, yes TPIS makes a mini ram for Vortec/Etec/Fastburn heads.
What about headers? Would headers on a L98 bolt up to the Fast Burns?
Some of them will. Fast Burn heads have a D-shaped raised exhaust port. Most 1-3/4" primary headers will cover the port, but a 1-5/8" will not. I am using Dyno Don 1-3/4" primary headers and they work with Fast Burn heads.
I'm not yet ready for an engine swap yet but I am usually looking at options for when I am. The LS swap thing is always cool but I already have an LS1 RX-7 and I want to try something relatively uncommon. So, it seems to me that the ZZ6 EFI at 420 horses in a gen one SBC. All this and it's even about what could have come in the car new. sort of. What do you think?
My zz6 came with fuel ejectors that failed 7 out of 8. It has been hell getting GM performance to finally replace them . They are still on back order.
I'm not yet ready for an engine swap yet but I am usually looking at options for when I am. The LS swap thing is always cool but I already have an LS1 RX-7 and I want to try something relatively uncommon. So, it seems to me that the ZZ6 EFI at 420 horses in a gen one SBC. All this and it's even about what could have come in the car new. sort of. What do you think?
Maybe I missed it.
What have you got to start with that are Gen 1 specific?
Headers.
Exhaust.
Fuel system (pump, regulator, supply and return lines)
Engine mounts.
Transmission crossmember.
Accessory drives. (alternator, power steering, AC).
While the apples to oranges comparison is nice for the LS HP vs SBC HP, it's not all that it's cracked up to be. It depends on where you start.
I would never go back to gen 1 sbc. Architecturally even with modern port design heads it’s a dead end. Unless you are doing some wild 13* head thing with either big cubes, or revving it to. NASCAR territory an LS just does everything better.
and with how popular the swap is it all just bolts in now.
I bought the zz shortblock a couple yrs ago. The block finishing has been refined so it's much better and probably cheaper to build than they used to be.
steel crank, pm rods, lightweight pistons and thin rings in a 4bolt block. Great for n/a combos and low low boost.
Other than that, it would be much cheaper to build a 383 with china parts
I have a zz4 that I made into a zz430 clone. It has a pro flo xt on it. So it's basically a zz6 w a lt4 hot cam and 1.6 roller rockers. It rips it was cool 15 yrs ago w the zz4 and the original pro flo setup. Now it's a beast. The swap from 58cc heads to 62cc fast burns is a little more blower friendly. Now I'm looking into a torque storm supercharger and intercooler. I'm figuring about 6 lb boost. That should keep the hyper pistons together hopefully. The zz bottom end has been great.
I would never go back to gen 1 sbc. Architecturally even with modern port design heads it’s a dead end. Unless you are doing some wild 13* head thing with either big cubes, or revving it to. NASCAR territory an LS just does everything better.
and with how popular the swap is it all just bolts in now.
Many would beg to differ with that thinking.
In racing circles, the Gen 1 is still very much top of the pile.
Many would beg to differ with that thinking.
In racing circles, the Gen 1 is still very much top of the pile.
But not if you are staying with conventional 23° heads and intake. You need to move to 18°, 15°, 13°, 12° with out the exhaust ports for 4/6 and 5/7 being next to each other to get the benefits that make LS engines so good. And once you go down that route, the cost goes way up.
But not if you are staying with conventional 23° heads and intake. You need to move to 18°, 15°, 13°, 12° with out the exhaust ports for 4/6 and 5/7 being next to each other to get the benefits that make LS engines so good. And once you go down that route, the cost goes way up.
On the contrary, many racing classes factory angles. In drag racing where it's required, engines are making north of 500 HP with 350 CID and heads from the 60's. Intakes too. It's all in the cam as far as the output goes.
But, further to your point, there are classes where the sky's the limit. And so goes the output. 800+ out of 406 CID.
Now, as for the OP, is there a class rule in play?
I'm thinking probably not. So the sake of conversation, let's examine what it takes to build 460 HP. I just completed a Gen 1 this fall so I've got the bill of materials to lay out. Best comparison I've found for Gen 1 to LS is the LS3 in base trim. Something like 450 HP. It used to be I could get one over the counter for $7500 CDN (pre-pandemic). Of course that was less a controller or accessories. I've no idea what they're worth today.
FTR, I'm about 10k (CDN) for my 357 and 460 HP. Fully machined block, new pistons and rods, OEM crank, balanced, heads lightly worked over, Jones hydraulic roller and lifters, Melling Sharktooth oil pump. And a few others bits.
Maybe I'm out of touch with current prices but that sure is a lot of money for a 350 crate engine.
Originally Posted by Drew
About $8k for 420hp? Hard pass.
What's an equivalent LS crate engine worth? New from GM.
Up here, an LS3 lists for $10k CDN. That's 430 HP. Ready to go top to bottom although without an ECM.
Post search edit:
I see where a Wisconsin GM dealer has the same LS3 I was looking at for $9600 USD. That' sure gone up. Like 35%.
What's an equivalent LS crate engine worth? New from GM.
The ZZ6 EFI is $13K now. LS3 is less but also outrageously expensive. We laugh at the price of the ZZ6 but really everything has become too expensive overall. What used to be a hobby for almost everybody is now for the wealthy or the foolish.
This is 2023 not 2003. Everybody now knows LS engines run.
* That 420 Hp ZZ6 is a driver quality 350 SBC with a heads, cam, intake package.
* A similar driver quality LS3 with GM LS3 CNC heads and a mild cam upgrade would give around 550 Hp.
The LS engine is so good in street trim that there is a tendency in these kind of conversations for people to go off the rails and start comparing it to SBC race oriented builds.
I think the turn key EFI zz6 uses a precalibrated ecm. As a result, idk if it can be tuned. 11-13k for a zz6 is quite pricy. I converted my zz4 4 years ago w fast burn head/cam roller rockers and pro flo xt. It was about $3800. I obviously reused my block. But it's easy to upgrade w the Edelbrock EFI. The LS swaps are cool but no doubt will be more money in the end but seem to have more potential as well.
.
* A similar driver quality LS3 with GM LS3 CNC heads and a mild cam upgrade would give around 550 Hp.
The LS engine is so good in street trim that there is a tendency in these kind of conversations for people to go off the rails and start comparing it to SBC race oriented builds.
GM sells a crate engine with CNC heads?
As for the comparison, I'm well aware of the potential of both formats. This is why in these conversations I try to moderate the discussion to staying between the lines. In this case, it's 430(+/-) HP available over the counter from GM.
I resemble that remark!
$7500 invested in the engine and that doesn't include all of the top end parts from the previous version (heads, intake, carb, ignition).
Then the $2500 (+) I invested in a race ready 4L60 ate itself up. So now it's another similar chunk of change for a replacement although I do hope to recoup most of the expensive hard parts so the financial impact should be a little less.
Yes sir. Wealthy or foolish.
I think the only complete engine that GM offers now is the LS3, and that is aluminum block which has always cost more money. I don't think the average LS swapper is looking at a GM crate engine unless they need that CARB sticker with the E-ROD.
I think it is far more common that people turn to the aftermarket for a complete engine or an assembled short block and then slap on their own choice of H/C/I. Strokers seem to be all the rage right now.
Well, actually, you know how most builds really are... it begins with a junkyard pull-out delivered on a pallet. That's the real world for most us. And these days there is always barely used LS stuff for sale. Awesome stuff.
Originally Posted by Firechicken82
The LS swaps are cool but no doubt will be more money in the end but seem to have more potential as well.
You know what is the difference in effort and $$$ between your build and an LS swap? Nothing.
You did all the same things, did all the same work, bought all the same kind of stuff, did all the same kind of wiring, made all the same kind of vehicle upgrades.
Once you make enough power to scrap the stock transmission and rear axle then you're "all in" either way.
You may be right, honestly I don't know about the work in a LS swap. It looks like more work but I haven't done both. You're right, everything else is swapped and most of it was LS compatible. I feel like the GM performance LS kits and the zz6 are kind of crazy expensive. I'm glad I got my car 23 years ago and the zz4 20 years ago. The zz4 was 3k and the car was $300. God knows what I have into the car now. People always look at me strange when I'm like I have x amount into a $300 car. I guess you're right, supporting mods are what they are regardless. I guess it was easier and less expensive initially to build on the gen 1 platform. But all the original parts are so long gone at this point.
I feel like the GM performance LS kits and the zz6 are kind of crazy expensive. I'm glad I got my car 23 years ago and the zz4 20 years ago.
Yep, my car was built slowly over decades. I can't imagine putting out all the money at once. That.... would.... hurt.....
I'm like you, the total $$ in the car doesn't matter. I think that's more the mindset of a long term owner because a little bit each year eventually adds up and that's just the way it is. It's not like we're going to abandon our hobby, right?
I will say though that the LS7 broke me, it was the first time I felt guilt about needless spending. I'll never do that again. Too much freakin' money for a hobby. It is my favorite engine I've ever had though....
10-18-2019, 12:30 AM
