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Engine SwapEverything about swapping an engine into your Third Gen.....be it V6, V8, LTX/LSX, crate engine, etc. Pictures, questions, answers, and work logs.
I hear that about the money. All the little projects w the car always grow. It's like, while doing this I may as well do this and that so I never need to do it again. And then it goes on and on. But in the end as long as your happy the outcome than whatever w the money and time. It's cool as hell to build these cars the way we all want to. It's also cool to rip around in something that most people have no clue what it is or how it just blew by them.
One strong contributing factor to my being entrenched in the Gen 1 platform is because that's where I started. In 2003 the LS was still young and the aftermarket hadn't made the leap to affordable swaps. At least not in the 3rd gen world. So I continue developing what I have as the infrastructure is in place and that's a significant expense. Engine and transmission mounts, headers and the balance of the exhaust, ignition, wiring harness'...they're all a sunk cost now. Upgrades, such as what I've just completed on the engine side, are still expensive though. Something else to consider too, is that what I've got now has been assembled from parts here and there and although I trust I'll be able to race the living crap out of it (as I've done with the iterations that have preceded this one), it's still not brand new out of the crate. That in itself has some value. And a warranty if bought complete.
As for the average hotrodder investing in a crate engine, I've seen the crate drop-in done many times. It saves the old machine shop hassle if you don't have that particular inclination. Personally, I enjoy the assembly side and the selection of parts to build what I think will be effective.
Winding this thread back to the beginning, a question that was asked was what did the OP have as a starting point? Were they as deep into the Gen 1 as I am or, interestingly, also as I am, have a clean pallet from which to start? FTR, my 86 Coupe is the result of those 20+ years of development. (both forward and backward!). The 82 Berlinetta is sans drivetrain. I also happen to have a couple of LM7's to work with should I go that route. (Or build it at all because as a very clean roller, it's value appears to be increasing. It may be sellable and the money used to fund other projects.)
But back on topic, it's ZZ6 vs a comparable GM issued LS crate engine. If the case study shows that if the Gen 1 infrastructure is in place to accept the ZZ6 with minimal fuss, then regardless of the inflated current pricing, HP for HP (430 give or take), the Gen 1 is the less expensive route. No hot rodding. No H/C/I upgrades. Just like for like. The swap parts drive up the cost. Admittedly, it's actually less expensive than when these parts where in their infancy but it's still a cost.
Here is the latest catalogue cut from GM Performance.
Some of the above PN's don't align with what's on the web so I dug into Scoggin Dickey's inventory.
Priced from Scoggin Dickey.
Chevrolet Performance 19433044 - ZZ6 EFI Turn Key Crate Engine - 420HP. $13066.23. (Crate engine kit includes pre-programmed, self-learning control system. Comes with 12.750" externally balanced, 153-tooth automatic transmission flexplate. Requires externally balanced flywheel for manual transmission.)
Chevrolet Performance 19435098 - LS3 6.2L Crate Engine - 430HP. $9679.21
Chevrolet Performance 19354328 - Engine Controller Kit For 430HP LS3 6.2L. $2060.30
Now, having had a look at the current pricing, I can see the argument for LS over Gen 1. The "turn key" price is a wash at these power levels. That said, if I were to look at it from my perspective, I've got all the bits to drop the ZZ6 in and go. No additional costs. (Also FTR, I would not pay $13000 USD for that engine.)
If I were to go with the LS, then at a minimum I'm looking at headers, another y-pipe to go with existing cat back, engine mounts, possibly a transmission mount depending on the engine setback with the mounts selected, a flexplate adaptor, custom rad hoses and or replacement rad, There might even be an oil pan swap needed to fit the 3rd gen chassis. What's the value of those parts? Two grand? Probably more considering at one time, Holley's BlackHeart line had excellent headers for $1000. Their past catalog certainly made the swap very simple. Too bad it's all but gone.
As I type this, I'm also thinking I wouldn't invest that amount into an LS either. But we're talking crate to crate.
Another thread isn't needed to discuss the junkyard pullout LS vs Gen 1. It looks handily in favour of the LS as seeing it's a junkyard engine, then the hot rod approach is fully in play. The potential from a H/C/I upgrade looks to be the realm of the LS.
One thing though that I refuse to do, is to build a disposable engine as many racers have done for decades. Build it, race it, blow it up, get another JY special and repeat. The engine swap is getting old for me and I just want to drive, race and enjoy.
Anyway ladies and gentlemen, as always, the discussion is part of the hobby and I enjoy most aspects of it. Except for the looming transmission swap that's coming to a driveway near me come the spring. Ugh
Did you do the ZZ6?
I had a dream about a ZZ6 short block, original heads and original TPI setup. and stock exhaust manifolds. In my calculation, it would be bullet proof because you can't rev it much past the TPI power band.
Did you do the ZZ6?
I had a dream about a ZZ6 short block, original heads and original TPI setup. and stock exhaust manifolds. In my calculation, it would be bullet proof because you can't rev it much past the TPI power band.
I did just about that. Used cnc ported, bigger valves 113/zz4 heads with a mild cam in a recent project
Zz4/5/6 all have d-port/raised port heads. The 6 uses fast burn heads and they are much better than the earlier heads. They all need larger headers, Not square port headers. Dons headers work, Edelbrock tes headers fit but don't flow as well. I think the SLP headers fit also. There others that work as well. IDK about manifolds that work.
Aren't the 113 / ZZ4 heads a different shape exhaust port ?
Yes, they have a curve on the top. "D" port, no big deal at all. Most headers still fit.
the fastburn heads are based on ported 113/zz4 heads and thats what i have. The exhaust ports are still small
Yes, they have a curve on the top. "D" port, no big deal at all. Most headers still fit. the fastburn heads are based on ported 113/zz4 heads and thats what i have. The exhaust ports are still small
I'd only use stock OEM manifolds. I have had so many problems with headers, I'd never go back. and OEM manifolds look more original.
I'd only use stock OEM manifolds. I have had so many problems with headers, I'd never go back. and OEM manifolds look more original.
There definitely are a few things that need to be addressed when using headers, but done correctly, they can be great.
you have to use a quality header, gaskets and bolts.
i prefer jethot coated stainless. You'll easily get 100k trouble free miles if you do it right. Cheap headers/gaskets may get you arou d the block.
The key for me when considering headers are the gaskets.
Since I started using Reflex, I've not had a leak in tens of thousands of miles. That's using a painted (and re-painted) mild steel Hedman with thin head flanges. 1/4" I think.
I've used the soft aluminum gaskets and they've been great. I've used them on 2 sets of headers and even pulled the headers off and reused the gaskets numerous times. They seal well and are reusable. Couldn't really ask for more.
I've used the soft aluminum gaskets and they've been great. I've used them on 2 sets of headers and even pulled the headers off and reused the gaskets numerous times. They seal well and are reusable. Couldn't really ask for more.
12-01-2023, 08:58 PM
