MMroc86

Can this be done with a 350? I'm trying to hit about 450-500 rwhp which should put me at about 510-575 crank correct?

My question is do I need a forged steel crankshaft for this or will an iron one get the job done? & do I really need to go 383? I'm thinking about going with this shortblock.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-12561723

Is it overkill? Are there somethings that still need to be upgraded? & will the rwhp I'm aiming for get me into the mid 11's?

I will be keeping the fuel injection. I want to go with a stealthram for the intake & I still need to do some more research on the heads plus cam, but from what I gather I need really good flowing heads & mild cam to keep me streetable.

Thoughts?

EDIT:I put it im this sub-board because I'm swapping from a 305 to 350. Please re-locate if it needs to be somewhere else. Thanks!

skinny z

While the 500 hp and 18-22 mpg certainly is doable, the mid 11's are just as reliant on the vehicle. Weight especially. What are the vehicle mods? Trans. Gear. Etc.
That said, forged steel crank if you want to do be able do this for a while. A 383 will be better able to get the mid 11's but you might have to scale back your mpg target.
The fuel injection is better handled by those with more experience than me in the advice department. What I can say here is that it's fairly evident that EFI nets better fuel economy. Unless your damn good with carb tuning.

MMroc86

So 383 is out of the question since this will be my DD. As far as mods the only mods I've done are the ones listed in my SIG.

I'll do more research to find out what the best gears for me to run are, aluminum driveshaft for sure to save a little weight. I've also had my eye on that b.a hood MR.Irocz has. That'll shave some weight off for sure.

Does that shortblock look like a good starting point then? I don't want to have to jack with the bottem-end I want it to be ready for my heads/cam+intake....

Thanks!

skinny z

Certainly that short block will do the job. There's more out there for as much money but if you're building from scratch then it's a little different story. The options open up considerably and the choices will be as many as those that have an opinion of them.
Regarding your mid 11's and mpg target. Is there more to it? When I was deciding my latest build, I had to reconsider my approach. I had started to move away from just the drag strip where a factory cast bottom end (albeit with a set of reconditioned rods and better bolts) let me race for years in or around the 400hp range. Now that I want to move into a few open road events or flying miles, a forged crank because a necessity. At least I think it does.
That has to factor into how you need to approach. Keep in mind, over-built is better than under-built.

MMroc86

My reasoning for aiming for mid 11's & 18-22mpg

1)Most new sports cars are running close to 12's stock & with a few mods can easily be in the 11's & still maintain decent MPG.

2)I'm aiming towards a pro-touring set-up that I can drive cross country comfortably with good power & decent gas milage. I don't want to spend all my money on gasoline....just most it. lol

3)I want to be able to keep up with everything else out there.

4)I would love a new camaro/corvette but cannot afford 700+ for 5yrs. But I can afford to mod the hell out of my car to make it better overtime. Its already better looking. lol

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

My 383 did what you ask. 383 with afr heads and a good 230 deg .600" cam, 3.42 gear and overdrive 700r4 trans. 3450 lbs.

400 whp. 3600 stall, 11.47 at 118-119 mph in summer air and got high teens mpg highway. Stealth ram tuned on stock ecu

My buddy's 406 made 521 whp ran 10.4 at 132 mph and got near 20 mpg with t56 double overdrive manual with 3.73 gears and 28" tire. 9.4's with 250 ish shot spray. Single plane victor efi on stock ecu with programming


My 99 ls1 bolt on car only gets 19 mpg amd made 330 whp running 12.1 at 111 lol. Not tuned great but not out of tune either. Gearing makes a big difference. Keep rpm down at cruise

MMroc86

Interesting, I've been looking at 383's as well, the shortblocks are pretty pricey tho. What set of AFR heads were you running? & how bout the pistons, rods & crank?

Also if it can be had with 400rwhp then I'm over-building am I not? I take it you did not have a forged steel crankshaft. I'd be content with mid 11's....

Thoughts?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

No i built my bottom end for small nitrous work and higher rpms. Eagle forged crank forged h beam rods arp 8470 bolts, srp forged flat top pistons. Afr 1040 heads 195cc. 150 shot went 10.63. My motor on a cold day/non heat soaked motor may have made 410-415 whp. Either way if you have a lighter car and race under 2500 ft density altitude, you can get mid 11's with 380-400 whp.

Another car i tuned went 12.2 at 112 with only 330 whp but had valve float. Really hurt top end. Was down a good 20-30 hp beyond 5700 rpm. That was a rebuilt L98 using stock rods crank and new replacement pistons, .060 over with xfi 280 cam and stealth ram efi and old afr 190cc heads. Basic, ran good and streetable although good bit of cam lope. That was at sealevel and would have been 11's at 114-115 in good air with no valvefloat, around 350's whp

skinny z

Curious. Was this an OEM roller engine?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yup. 360" overbored L98 block. Oem roller

That was in texas in late spring, it was warm so da wasnt great but lower than pa where i live now. That car would have been 2-3 tenths faster in colder air alone down there but in pa in summer conditions it would have slowed down 3-4 tenths easily.

My 99 ta went 12.1 at 111 there in superb air conditions with 308whp haha at same track he ran on. On a day like he ran i was 12.5-12.6

skinny z

.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

His issue was he put the xfi in with stock afr 190 springs which i believe are 1020's which are only 120/330 lbs seat/open. Thats 50 lbs short on seat and 70 lbs short on open pressure for that cam. Found the issue on the dyno after car wasnt responding well to changes at track and was inconsistant. Then he told me the springs and i was like uh huh

Never did replace them tho to see what it would do. He went 6.0 lsx and runs deep 11's lol

That was on ls7 lifters btw

skinny z

Now that's a note to MMroc. Deep 11's....lsx.... and probably 25 mpg too.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Carbed with 3.90 gears and th400, i dont think it has good mileage haha, but its nasty

skinny z

I guess his combo kind of misses my point by half. That said, the 11 second LS crowd can get great mileage and performance. They're certainly in a better position to do it than the Gen 1 crowd anyway. Something I'll consider for my next engine.

MMroc86

I have tought about going LSX but it would get to expensive for me to fast. Its all the fab'n required that worrys me. I'd get lost in all the mess with the damn wiring.

Anyways, I've been reading a ton of other threads about the AFR 195 eliminators & they look like the way to go for what I want to do. In-fact they seem like great all around heads. Except for one thing. There seems to of been a little drama about the springs.

From the looks of it I have to verify that they are part#8017 or #8019 (spring)

That is also dependant on what I cam go with correct?

I'm trying to put a price list together... to see if I can afford to do this within a reasonable amount of time, I don't want to the block sitting in my garage forever becuase of $$$

Suggestions on how to pick a cam would help out alot.

Also if I go with the zz4 350 shortblock what else needs to be done to it? I'm assuming that the block is ready to have heads,cam,intake,etc installed... is there more to it?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-12561723

Thanks!

one92rs

iTrader: (5)

the price you are going to spend on a crate engine and heads along with the cam and tuning will purchase you an ls1 with minor upgrades and tuning and you would be better off. iirc your car is a classic. you can go carb now.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

True you can buy used ls1 or 6.0 truck with mild cam and new springs will do mid 11's and get good mileage with tune for less or same money as sbc

So gotta put price list together. I had probably 7-8 grand into my entire 383. Could have done stock 5.3 with turbo for half that and made 2 times the power

MMroc86

You make a good point, if I go LS and carb the thing I won't have to worry about electrical.... BUT I will still have to fabricate fuel lines & I think you also need a tubular k member to get it going...

I will look into that some-more....

Thanks.

Definitly wanna get something going soon! I want to have something fresh for the round-up!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Despite what some people claim, carb setups generally arent as fuel efficient as efi. Can tune them well but i dont think you will see the mileage as an efi system can deliver.

MMroc86

I crunched some numbers & even if I deciede to keep the EFI & purchase the painless harness it looks like it'll still be cheaper then going with the l31/zz3

Searching craigslist for an LS1 now.... Actually hoping I can get the whole car so I can nab the rear-end as well.+ harness & whatever else I can use....

Thx for the input guys, I'll keep ya'll posted...

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

11 sec sbc really needs 1500$ heads 300$ cam 120$ lifters, 600$ intake manifold, 600$ headers and custom exhaust which can be 150-500$ depending. Thats assuming you had a good shortblock, which could be 2000-3000 depending. Plus tuning time.

So used lower miles ls1 may be 2000$ 350$ cam and 300$ ls6 intake if not an 01-04 ls1, and new lifters/gaskets, springs likely 500$ of stuff, plus 400$ dyno tune and you already got the sbc matched if not beat for power on stock heads

skinny z

So I'm guessing you've decided the answer is "Probably yes but it'll easier to do with an LS platform". Notice I didn't say cheaper....but I would agree with you if that's your decision.

MMroc86

Yeah I think the ls1 is going to be my best bet. It'll give me plenty of room to keep building, if I so desire... I've searching for an ls1 on craigslist all day...

I'll update this post once I find one...

THX

TKR 88 GTA

Ill be looking into this for updates so keep em coming as they come lol ill be moving to Houston here in march/april too so ill be waiting to see the car. Id do the same route as you though of I was in your position. I wish someone would of told me about the LS swap when I first got into my thirdgen I would of spent the 2400 bucks to an LS instead of my current set up lol but good luck man cant wait to see the build!

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Not sure where you heard that. Read the LS swap sticky in the top section of this forum. Notch the factory K-member, yes, but you don't have to go tubular.

nossbc

iTrader: (1)

i have 383 with foged eagle rot assembly, srp je pistons, tfs twisted wedge heads g1, hsr intake fully ported to get 300+ cfm on runners, mid .500 hydrolic roller cam, 10.5 c/r, pump gas 3.73 12 bolt and 11.5 et streets. full susp done, 700r4 fully built w/3000 stall car runed 11.61@117 and 10.21@129 on 150hp shot...gets 18-20mpg as long as i go easy...lol stock ecm custum tunned chip many dyno runs made 393whp about 450-465fhp.
that was 2 years ago i have since then done a few minor mods and less weight hoping for 11.5 or 11.4....its just a street car so i and the wife can run sometimes...if proper parts are selected 11 are easy ..even 10's...i even had my race car on the street few times x275 7 sec ride but...i got 4mpg on c-23 not cheap..
now one thing i can tell you is if its going to be your dd....i recomend keeping it efi

TKR 88 GTA

^ nice set up lol what elevation are the times done at tho? What was the torque at? Ive read somewhere that gas mileage is closely related to torque so if thats true that would explain how your auto with 3.73s was able to pull 18-20mpg??

nossbc

iTrader: (1)

i live in toronto canada....not sure of the elevation....but i know it was 2800 d.a the day i was at the track, forgot to mention i have lock up switch without that 18-20mpg would be impossible....as far as torque it made 455tq to the wheels wich i was amaized by that given the intake i have and cam...when intake was ported street maners where in thought as well as strip performance.

abray1

A 1990 LT5 ZR-1 350 with 430RWH weighing 3700lb and getting close to 30MPG will turn in the 11s and idle like a stock 6 banger. 12 to 1 comp stock 390 lift cams with tiny duration and a cast steel factory crank 6 speed and 410 gears. Really incredible engines. If Dave McClellan would have had his way the vette would have the third or fourth gen LT5 engine by now having 600 plus horsepower 30 plus MPG and lasting 500,000 miles. The bean counters went with the cost effective LS1. I heard his speeches at the corvette museum in 2002 and 2003 and he is an amazing man.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yep very similar to my hsr 383. I only made 392 whp on 10th pull in a row so it was very heatsoaked and torque was only 372 i believe. 150 shot i went 10.63 at 127.x best trap of 128.

Good modern port heads and good tune will be efficient

MMroc86

Too bad those don't swap into our cars. Awesome engine, I was reading about it a few wks ago.

Will do, thanks.

I will be keeping it EFI for sure. Thanks for sharing your set up with us!

I'm still looking for an donor car for the LS engine, but I'll def. be going with that.

skinny z

Where do you dyno your car? I've gone to RedLine Performance in Markham.

nossbc

iTrader: (1)

it was dyno at autoworks in oshawa....but i usally go to d'sousa perf for dyno tunning he's very helpfull and knwos the gm chip tunning stuff

quote=skinny z;5484800]Where do you dyno your car? I've gone to RedLine Performance in Markham.[/quote]

skinny z

Damn nitrous. You never know if you're bringing a knife to gun fight!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Its easy to use and makes the common car a monster lol but refilling bottles gets old quick

nossbc

iTrader: (1)

lol...true

well i played with that system all year and from the factory the 150hp pills are way too rich, first hits went 10.70, after tunning and playing with the fuel broght it to 10.21@129 bet you if i dyno its more than 150hp that i gained after tunning.
im doing some bigger pills this coming season....maybe 9s

nossbc

iTrader: (1)

i guess thats the downside of nitrous.....i have a complete filling station in my trailer, so i have it on demand.

skinny z

I figure low 12's for me this year on a little old 350 NA. If I'm this close to running 11's then I can see borrowing my buddies retired nitrous plate setup and going for it.
Until then....who knows, maybe 11's on this new engine is possible (but a 3750 race weight, it's unlikely).
Then what.....NOS to go 10's !

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah mine was pig rich trapped 125 first pull. Ended up running 75 hp fuel jet with the 150 hp nitrous jet to lean it out and added 2 deg timing, went 128.

Bottles made me go turbo and i dont regret it.... But i still have a kit on the turbo car just in case lol

skinny z

I'll have to track you down this summer. I cruise Oshawa (my hometown) and Whitby all the time when I'm visiting friends.
Be on the lookout for grey Sport Coupe.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

That brings up a good point lol, you can take a mild L98 that gets 23 mpg and just spray your way to mid 11's haha. Accomplishes all goals. I just assumed we were talking about n/a motors

skinny z

Regarding that....the L98 is for a friend. We were trying to assemble something out of collective pile of spare parts. Something that can get out of it's own way but certainly not performance oriented other than paying attention to the little things.
My engine on the other hand, is what I hope gets my crate down the track in low 12 second range. With small 170 cc heads and smallish 274 (custom grind) cam it might be a tall order. Still...low 12's and 23+ mpg carbed isn't all bad.
That's were this nitrous conversation comes from.

nossbc

iTrader: (1)

np...1990 red firebird gta will see me at timmy's on hwy 2 by bk in oshawa also my hometown...there some sat nights.

MMroc86

Found an lq9 60k with rebuilt 4l60 for $1800

no harness. My question is will this tranny fit? I read somewhere but cant find the tread that the is to long or something like that. Anybody know if there is any truth to this?

TKR 88 GTA

Not to bad of a price. 4l60E should fit no problem same thing as a 700r4. The 4l80Es are the one that are to big for the tranny tunnel I believe. I dont recall anything being to long tho

nossbc

iTrader: (1)

the 4l60 its tad longer than 700r4 but it will fit, ur driveshaft should fit, but not sure if the yoke is the same as the 700r4 and the tranny cross member should be ok or buy one from bmr, sphoon etc..

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

4L60E is the same length as a TH700. However, the LS-series moved the mount location.

Output yokes are the same. 3rd and 4th gen driveshafts interchange (except for the early 4-speed manual and TH200C)

MMroc86

Alright, went & checked out the LQ9 tonight, it turned by hand.



Going to pick this bad boy up tomorrow. minus the truck intake.

Getting 4l60e+engine+pcm for $1700 Its from an 05 silverado ss. I'm bulletproof unless the block is cracked right?

? can I use the truck pcm or will that be useless?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Throw it in as is but with medium sized cam. 11 sec and 20 mpg should be doable