Bearhead

I'm looking for some advice on doing an engine upgrade.

Project Car: 84 Camaro Berlinetta, with a 305 V8 4BB, TH700-R4 4 speed auto, 3.08 axle ratio. California based car, built in Van Nuys in Feb/84. It needs to pass smog regulations for Arizona after the engine swap.

Goal: Rebuild the 305 V8 4BBl with 300+ hp, including transmission upgrades, headers/exhaust, etc.

Parts I've researched that seem to fit/make sense (open to suggestions) to get this done:

Engine has EGR as part of the equation for smog, so I believe I need the Edellbrock Performer 3701K manifold kit (w/EGR carb adapter, and Q-Jet plate) to use the previous Q-Jet carb on the Edelbrock 3701 intake.

I need some carb part upgrades for the original Rochester Q-Jet, manifold choke (not electric).

Looking for cam suggestions for a car likely to only hit 4000-4500 rpms for the best torque/rpm's.

Transmission upgrade: Looking to install a B&M shift kit (street, not race) to improve shifting & performance, and a flex plate for the 350 to match the 700-R4 stock tranny. Wondering if that's all that's needed for a car that will be a highway flyer. I'm not going to be doing any drag or street racing, just want the car to move quickly on the highway. It's got 3.08 rear axle gears.

Concerns: What parts/upgrades will I need to pass Arizona smog while bumping the performance?

Atilla the Fun

300 HP at 4500 RPM? Not with that 8:1 ( NOT 8.5:1 ) 350. That one isn't legal anyway. In fact, you being in Cali, the only legal way for you to accomplish what you propose is to gather all the exact parts to duplicate this: http://arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/devices/eo/D-278.pdf It can be completely faked for $2500 if you're willing to scrounge used parts at pick-n-pull. But every last detail that's visible will have to exactly match what's on the list in there. The results are 308 HP at 5000 RPM, and 365 ft-lbs TQ at 3500 RPM To get the best results, you'll want a 3.73:1 posi rear.

Bearhead

Thanks Attila, I'll run that letter by the guys that are supposed to do the engine swap. They're telling me the 350/290hp motor, with proper headers, intake/carb/camshaft/lifter upgrades, should be able to develop 340-350 hp.

Right now the Camaro is complete and running, with all smog gear intact. The plan is to detune the engine to pass smog, then retune it to proper specs afterwards.

Or are they insane?

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

If you are going to buy that engine and swap the cam out , then save $500 and buy 250Hp version.
Cam is major difference between the two
http://sdparts.com/details/gm-goodwr...gines/10067353
Free shipping
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-10067353/


Follow this build on the base 350 crate engine
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...ild/index.html
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te..._ii/index.html

Bearhead

Vettoz: thanks very much for the links to those articles! So, they aren't insane (maybe that means I'm not, too...LOL), but there sure is a lot of misleading info, and typos out there.

Called GM Performance and Goodwrench engine parts lines.

GMP claims the 290hp engines are 8:5 to 1 (the190 HP is 8:1), Goodwrench claims 8:1 for both. The 250HP motor you referenced is rated that way by SD, not Chevy. Apparently that's based on an intake manifold/camshaft/headers/exhaust upgrades, only 190 HP without those.

The 290 HP is a cam change, plus other changes to bring it to 290 HP.

Jeez. LOL

In any case, all the GM guys agree that with the right changes (as noted in that article you linked) to the motors, you can get to 8:5 to 1, 350 hp or more without ruining your savings account, and they'll still honor the warranty if something goes south (apart from the camshaft change).

So the only real question is if the extra $400 plus is worth it for the 290 vs 190 hp motor if I'm doing those upgrades already.

More research needed obviously.

Thanks again for the links, etc.

Bearhead

After another month of research it's not looking too good. The California Air Resources Board (CARB) are pretty restrictive on what you can put in your 84 Camaro as an engine swap/upgrade. CARB Executive Orders limit what you can use by quite a bit.

Some of the guidelines are as follows (quite asinine, I might add)...

1) You can swap in a later engine, as long as it's from a California built car, and is a direct replacement for the 305. So you can get a 350, period.

2) If you swap in the later engine you need to swap in their ECU (PROM/box/wiring harness/etc) as well. Casting/head #'s must match and you need to provide proof it was from a California emission car.

3) You can upgrade the LG4 V8 305 if you use all CARB/EO qualified parts. The bad news is that it seems once you do that you get heads with D shaped exhaust ports, which there are no legal headers built for to fit the 1984 Camaro. Hedman is the only company with EO approved models (68481 2.5" collector, 68471 3" collector), but they don't fit D shaped ports properly. So you're stuck with ZZ4/350 or L98 heads to fit them. Those are $1400 for the heads alone, then you can get a mid performance Comp Cams cam, Edelbrock Performer (EGR) 3701 intake, the Hedman headers, and use your Q-Jet since you can't get a PROM to upgrade your computer ECU in your car (or at least I can't find any proms) to use another carb within Californa. In other words you're putting around $3500 or more into a 1984 305. When you're done you'll have somewhere around 9:1 compression, a Q-Jet for your carb, and a fistful of CARB/EO paperwork to take with you to your smog check, or the smog referee who'll inspect your engine swap.

4) You can go with the ZZ4/350 Turnkey motor, buy a wiring harness w/self contained ECU upgrade, and headers. That's around $7.5k plus labor. You'll still walk around with a pile of CARB/EO orders and receipts for smog every two years.

5) You can get the LS-3 327 E-ROD upgrade, taking out your 305 altogether. By the time you put a front pulley system on it, headers and the E-ROD motor you'll spend around $9k plus labor. But you'll have your wiring harness/CARB sticker and a new engine.

I've got one more call to make on Monday to the CARB folks about what parts I could legally use for a vortec head upgrade to the base 350 195 hp Goodwrench motor, but to say the least it seems it will cost way more money to do this right than I ever imagined.

I think this car would be better off in Texas with my brother so he can do it right without the emissions restrictions California imposes.

Argh!



Any alternative thoughts from the members here would be welcomed at this point. Thanks for letting me blow off some steam.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

LT1, stock manifolds, or edelbrock headers.

Or an LS1, again stock manifolds.

Bearhead

I started checking on the LT-1 swap. Here are my concerns with that motor after doing some research online about the LT-1 as a new motor into a car that wasn't setup for it from the factory.

I'm pretty sure I run into problems with the A/C mount, wiring (new wiring harness needed plus the ECM, right?), power steering, alternator bracket, not to mention that this is a Berlinetta with the "Star Wars" dash, so it's likely going to have some computer carb controller issues. Most of the LT-1's were fuel injected (from what I can determine) so I'd have to buy a specific LT-1 manifold since the distributor is up front by the water pump.

There were also a couple reports of having to cut into the front frame for access to certain hoses, etc.

As for the LS1, I'll start looking into that, but my guess is since it's a different block (shorter and wider from what I read) it will also have a fair pile of fitment issues.

Jeez. I pt a big block 402 from a 70 Camaro into my 69 Firebird in 1978. I swapped the motor mounts, put in a bigger radiator and battery, and away I went (even with power steering/alternator) down the road for four years.

This engine swap is way more complicated.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Yes you need to make some clearance for the a/c compressor, merge the two engine harnesses into one, and install a new power steering hose, no issue with the alternator, you shouldnt be changing the manifold, that wouldnt make it legal in CA, you just want to swap the whole thing, efi and all into the car, allowing you to get past the smognazis.

There is no cutting into the frame for any hoses, unless someone was mixed up with clearancing the engine crossmember for the a/c compressor.

Bearhead

If I can find the Corvette version of this engine (there are two here in LA), then I'll need the complete wiring harness. I think I also need to swap the oil pan, if the sources online are correct. Pretty sure my 305 V8 oil pan won't fit the LT1 block, right? Apparently the Corvette oil pans are different from the Camaro oil pans due to crossmember clearance as well (at least that's what I've read online).

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Why is it you're trying to find a corvette one ?

Bearhead

I'm not, but I found two locally that were both out of 95 Corvettes that were wrecked.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

Now that makes sense, just remember that when dealing with the smognazis, you need to swap the entire drivetrain (engine AND transmission) out of a donor car, so if you are staying auto you'll need the 4L60E, if you want to be manual you'll need a T56.

Bearhead

I just got off the phone with Glenn at CARB. I can swap the motor without the tranny since I have the 700R4.

Now it's a case of acquiring the right wiring harness to graft in. Since I have the "Star Wars" dash controls, sensors wind up playing a large part of this. I've contacted LT1 Wiring Harness (http://lt1wiringharness.com/) about the costs/feasibility of the swap.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

I've done plenty of LT and LS swaps, the harness is no issue, if your oil pressure and water temperature gauges use a different sending unit than other thirdgens you'll only need to install them into the LT1. Speedometer output from the LT1's pcm can be recalibrated if it is indeed different.

I think they told you that because technically you could do a 92/93 LT1 which used the "4L60" which was just a renamed 700, while that would allow you to keep your trans, unless you've got something very nice and rebuilt, i'd strongly suggest going with a 94/95 and the corresponding 4L60E.

Bearhead

Who's harness did you go with on your LT or LS swap? TBI or TPI?

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

I've done a few for myself as well as quite a few for others, and used all different types as a basis, but generally if it were for a TPI car i've tried to avoid cutting up a good tpi harness and would start with a tbi or V6 harness, i've also got the bare terminals for the bulkhead connector and have just built that half of the harness new from scratch in some cases.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Do you want to keep this really, really simple?

1. Get a 350.
2. If the 350 has aluminum heads, paint them black.
3. If the 350 has "350" anywhere on it, remove it.
4. Remove the 305 from the car.
5. Transfer anything the 305 has on it that the 350 doesn't to the 350. All of the 305 induction and ignition parts, as well as all sensors, need to go on the 350 eventually. If the 350 has any of those parts (like intake manifold), remove it and install the 305 part. Or, get a C.A.R.B. approved replacement (like an Edelbrock Performer spreadbore EGR intake).
6. Install the 350.

If you want headers, install C.A.R.B. approved headers.

If you want a better cam, somewhere between 3 & 4 above, install a better cam. Just make sure it isn't too wild and doesn't have a lopey idle. "Computer compatible" is a good feature to look for when choosing a cam.

It doesn't get any simpler than that.

Bearhead

True enough if you know how much the emissions will measure before you build and install it. That's the crapshoot with this route.

The CARB guy was very receptive to all of the same ideas you just posted. In fact this is exactly what I though I could do and then he said this

"Just realize if you do fail, all you have to do is keep swapping parts out until you meet emissions. Just because you buy all CARB EO approved parts doesn't mean they'll work together to meet emission levels to get certified. That's why we have approved engine model blocks (ZZ4/350, E-Rod) that we know will meet spec because we've done the testing with a certified list of parts. But if you mix and match EO parts, that doesn't mean they will all work together to meet emissions levels. Then you're pulling out cams/heads/carbs/etc until you pass smog. Keep in mind, most of the guys doing this are doing it at home, and have plenty of time to do it in their garages. If you're going to pay someone else to do the engine swap (which is my case) and you don't have a known working solution then you could spend a ton of money on labor for trial and error."

And here's the other gotcha, which I just found out about from CARB with the LT1 or LS1 swap...this will make you nuts. I wrote this to two prospective LT1 sellers locally after I made my last call to CARB on Monday.

The California Air Resources Board (CARB) has put so many restrictions on the engine swap that it’s become unrealistic.

Just to give you an idea (I had another ebay seller with an LT1 engine from a 95 Corvette as well I was in touch with) of how ridiculous it is, I needed the following to do the swap.

1. VIN # of the original vehicle to verify it was a Calif emission approved car the engine came from.
2. Serial #’s of the engine and the transmission to match the VIN #.
3. An aftermarket wiring harness that could be grafted into my 1984 Camaro.
4. Not only the engine, but the exhaust manifolds, exhaust system.
5. A statement from the seller of the engine, signed under penalty of perjury about the origins of the motor.
6. A document proving the seller had the title to the car that had the engine it came out of.
   

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Well, your originally-stated goal was to swap in a 350. Now you're talking about the end value of the car. What exactly is your goal?

You can make the 305 run a lot better and still pass emissions. At worst you may have to swap on a stock air cleaner when you take it in for smog. But, it is easier to get power and clean sniffing out of a 350 than it is getting it out of a 305.

And, what I suggested is really just sliding a 350 past the smog visual inspection, while technically it is a motor change. Everything the C.A.R.B. guy told you was what you'd have to do to get through the motor change process. Getting a 350 through smog inspection and sniffer with 305 operating equipment is a piece of cake. His statement about mixing and matching EO parts is way overstated.

As for an LT or LS swap, buy the donor car yourself, transfer the title to yourself. Show them the title in your name - the VIN is on the engine and in the PCM. You can do #5 yourself. You'll also have all of the emissions-related parts you need for the swap doing it that way.

Bearhead

You are correct. I also stated I had a budget of $4500 plus labor to get this done. As I found out, sliding it by the visual inspection might be done for that amount of money (no guarantees), passing smog/visual, etc with a performance bump.

But being legal for resale (which is a future consideration) is another matter entirely, which I might be able to slide by with, or not. There are no guarantees with that either, without a fistful of CARB EO, parts documentation, statements, etc. that would pass for a future buyer, or the California DMV.

I think what this all boils down to is that it became much more involved/detailed than I was prepared to deal with, taking into consideration the full ramifications of the swap within California.

At this point, I'm even considering sending the freshly restored car to my brother in Texas. At least there you have quite a bit more freedom with emissions and what you can do with an engine swap compared to California, which frankly turned into a logistical hassle.

scy135

So I was reading the posts and I'm in a similar situation, I have an 85 camaro z28 without an engine, I just bought a 350CID, 95-00, 4B Main, Gen.I, ZZ4, crate motor, roller cam, one piece rear seal, 330HP for $160. So I'm not gonna be able to drop that in because I live in California?

Bearhead

It depends on if you can get the proper aftermarket wiring/computer harness, etc to run it. GMM PP used to make a whole kit to do this, long since discontinued, and it didn't work with the digital dash/wiring of my Berlinetta.

Your Z28 could be different, so it's worth a shot to check out. At least you didn't spend much money on the motor if it's a bust.

The next option (legally) is to upgrade to an LS-1 motor which has the OBD (on board diagnostic computer?) which can do all of the smog crap itself, BUT you'll have to get new brackets for your power steering/AC, etc.

And last (but not least) they have a currently available "Cruise and Go" upgrade which is $11,000 plus installation & brackets for an LS-3 motor with transmission, wiring harness and computer which is CARB legal.

I elected not to spend another $13k on my 84 Berlinetta for this motor. I didn't have the time to source out an LS-1, brackets, etc either, which still would have cost around $7k with the labor, etc.

I opted to spend $14k on this, a 99 C5 Corvette with all of the options.

Bearhead

I'm going to give the 84 Berlinetta to my nephew in Arizona next month. It seems you can do a lot more engine upgrades without stressing out over the Calif Air Resources Board (CARB) restrictions I found in California.

Any Arizona members here? I need to get some guidelines on what's going to pass emissions after doing some upgrades.

My nephew wants to keep the original 305 and overhaul it for more performance. He's going to do the .030 over pistons/rings, a camshaft/lifters, headers, and new exhaust.

Since it's a Calif car, it's got EGR and a 4 BBL carb. I've already bought an Edelbrock 3701K Performer intake so that's one upgrade out of the way, but I'm sure there are other things such as the carb that need to be addressed.

Let me know if you have some tips. Thanks!

The restoration of the car is finished as far as paint/body work...pics below.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

All US-sold 3rd gens had EGR. That wasn't California unique.

The only difference between AZ and CA is the engine/system doesn't have to come out of an AZ car or meet CA tailpipe standards.

kmcn47

great looking car, but thats a z28 front end, not berlinette

Bearhead

You are correct. When I bought this from my Mom years ago, she connected with a truck on the left front area. The body shop couldn't find the Berlinetta front end pieces (air dam, fender, etc), but they had a complete Z-28 front end/hood, etc so I went with that instead.

My nephew has the car now, I drove it to him last weekend. The current idea is go with a 383/430hp stroker motor, beef up the tranny and upgrade the suspension.

Apparently he has lots of friends "dying to wrench" on the car if he gets the parts. My nephew already has wrenching skills. He rebuilt a Harley Davidson that was a wreck into a respectable bike a few years back, so he's been looking for a new project.

This one should be fun for him.

Bearhead

Thread resurrection...

My nephew is about ready to do one of two things to the 84 Berlinetta.

1) Take out the original 305 and rebuild it for more horsepower and torque. I'm sure there have been some who did this successfully to get 300hp out this block without breaking the bank. Ideas welcomed.

2) Swap the motor out for a 383 stroker small block.

Anyone on TGO done a 383 stroker swap with headers? If so, what did you go with, crate motor, or 350 with a swapped crank and heads?

He'll be starting on this soon, so I'm trying to help him out with options and also some $$ for the most cost effective solution.

Thanks in advance...

kmcn47

yes! however i don't imagine any of them ever passed smog after

Bearhead

Yeah, that had occurred to me...but my nephew "has a dream!"

Heh heh...thanks for your reply. Any specifics you can share, or were you not the one doing the 383 stroker upgrade?

kmcn47

i was not. i know its been done to death though, google search thirdgen 383 swap (the sites search feature is broken) and check out the results from thirdgen.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...-383-swap.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/carb...-v8-383-a.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...ing-build.html
or if you wanna go tpi
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/599875-383-tpi.html

first 4 results https://www.google.com/search?q=thir...en-US:official

kmcn47

but first some light reading https://www.thirdgen.org/mods2

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

From the TGO magazine articles:
The build:
https://www.thirdgen.org/hr_feb_2000...hird_gen_fbody

Smog test in the 2nd paragraph:
https://www.thirdgen.org/hr_feb_2000...en_fbody_part2

Bearhead

kmcn47 and five7kid, thanks for those links, the 383 stroker looks great, it's my #1 option at this point. Kind of leaning towards the ZZ383 Chevy performance motor since it has the Gen 1 block with roller cam and the right power steering/etc bracket/boss mounting holes. Then we wouldn't need to buy a complete serpentine kit, etc.

One thing I want to discuss for a minute is the 305 in there already. Not sure if it's got the right thickness cylinder sleeves/crank journals for it, but is it possible to convert this block to a 383 stroker?

kmcn47

no.

Bearhead

Figures. LOL Actually a little more digging into the 305 block yielded that info as well.

But thanks for the reply!

Bearhead

Checked on true dual exhaust for the 3rd Gens...jeez, what a twisted path that is for piping. Not like my 69 F-body was.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Yup.

4th gens, too.

Most likely a good mandrel bent 3" system will be just fine. Mine has been good enough for a 11.82 @ 114.8MPH timeslip.

Bearhead

After I saw this, I new it would be a PITA...jeez. I can't believe they didn't leave the room for a real dual exhaust setup. Granted, I'm old, when I worked for Meineke Muffler in 77/78, we had to measure out the tubes so they were the same length on each side for balance, and equal back pressure (or as close as possible).

This just left me wondering WTH Chevrolet was thinking in the early 80's.

Obviously kudos to Willie for getting this done, but they sure made it difficult on him.

Bearhead

Fair enough. I just found that Hooker Headers makes a CARB compatible header (AIR) for California for the 383, and I found CARB compatible 3" CAT, and cat back exhaust with 3" inlet, 2.5" outlets.

That seems to be the best I can do on this car without major hassle.

Bearhead

Ok, looks like my nephew and I have a plan going for the engine swap.

1) 383 stroker motor/350hp 4 bolt main crate engine (9.5:1 compression, 91 octane gas), Edelbrock Performer intake, Q-Jet rebuilt/rejetted and upgraded with the Stage II Jet Performance chip, flex plate, etc to work on the 350/383.
2) Hooker Headers w/AIR compatibility (Calif CARB approved with EO #). 3" collectors, 3" Y pipe into a 3" Magnaflow Cat, back into Hooker Cat Back system with 3" inlet and dual 2.5" exhaust pipes.
3) B&M shift kit for the 700-R4 tranny
4) Dual snorkel air cleaner housing
5) New Water Pump, reuse the original alt/power steering and A/C compressor (just replaced/recharged a year ago), plus the smog pump.

Looks like this will all be CARB/California legal should the car ever come back to California, but should be a fun ride while it's in Arizona for him.

Within the limits of it being smog legal in California, this is the best solution we could find considering there are NO carbs made to fit a 1984 Camaro with any performance that meets emissions in California.

I was fairly surprised to find the 383/350 block stroker motor had better smog emissions than the original 305, which I guess is due to it being more efficient with better heads than the 305. That was a nice surprise.

I want to thank all of those who participated in this thread with their suggestions, links, and guidance.

If you see any major issues with what I've outlined above, let me know!

The plan is to yank the 305 out in early May, and do the swap/upgrades by June, 2014, time permitting around my nephew's busy schedule. Thanks again to those who have helped!

Jim

kmcn47

just thought id add now (been away from my computer) aside from any personal reasons on style or sound preference, there really is no reason to do a "true dual" exhaust setup on a thirdgen camaro, gale banks built a twin turbo 600hp carb'd trans am that ran damn near factory exhaust routing, if i recall right it wasn't anything much more then a 3" stainless setup



although that 2 into one looks pretty trick, surely any exhaust shop could copy it though