Vega

Maybe i should explain this a little further. If the motor is out of the car, yes a 350 is the way to go. No point in dropping in a 305 when its just a de-bored 350 and they both rev the same. A 302 however can be built to rev higher so there may be a reason to drop that in instead of a 350. But if you have a 305 in your car already, especially if its a roller-cam motor, honestly a top-end swap will get you very very close to a full 350 build and swap and will be much cheaper and much easier since the shortblock will stay in the car, plus at that point if you ever do decide to swap to a 350 the whole new top-end will swap right over just as easily. However. as said before, if the block is out already, yeah i agree a 350 or 383 would be the most cost-effective route. Its all about being cost-effective

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

I agree, a tpi 305 is much much much better than the TBI, but 305s can be easily out built and performed by a 350, now if you bore out a 305 as much as you can, increase the stroke, get the most compression you can run on pump gas, along with a roller cam, good heads and intake, exhaust and headers, and either I heavily ported tpi, or a carb, then you have an endings that can take mildly built 350s out all day, but if you do all those things, but on a 350 block (making it a 383/396/406 with the stroke) you're going to be making more power, no matter what, there's no replacement for displacement, remember? Yes you can build a beast from a 305 or 302 (even tho they have nothing in common) but if you use the same parts on a 305 and a 350, the one with more cubes is obviously going to be better, even with the components EXACTLY the same, now personally, I think 305s have potential (I own one) and i was going to build it but then I got a 350 from a truck for free, well which is smarter? Spending the same money on more or less power? Really this whole 305 vs. 350 thing comes down to $$$$... Like everything else these days, I'm not against you, just puttin into perspective the whole situation, I'd personally LOVE to see him build a 302, and I'd envy the crap out of it

85T/A350

The TPI 305s are very close to the L98s I'll give you that. But that is stock for stock. A full top end build on a 305 will certainly make good power. But that same top end, assuming it was sized for a 350 upgrade, usually will net much better numbers on a 350. If all out horsepower is not the goal, then a built 305 will be plenty adequate. But, the OP is specifically talking about a drag race engine. Under that parameter, a larger displacement engine is the way to go. Also, a 350 or 383 will rev to any rpm a 302 can just fine if it is built for such.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Haha Vega you are so right. I have 2 350s. I would love to build a Buick engine someday. I would really love to build a 455 for a Skylark/GS. And as for the 305 haters check this out. http://www.superchevy.com/technical/...d/viewall.html

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

But realize since the 302s are smaller displacement they will be able to push higher RPMs than a 350 with the same parts.

Apeiron

You saw this part in that article?

Apeiron

Not exactly, it depends what the limiting factor is.

85T/A350

That's what he doesn't understand, It's not as simple as x engine. is this displacement so it revs higher than this other engine. It's all good though, he will learn in time. No one has said that power cannot be made out of a 302. What has been said and is fact is that a larger displacement engine, such as a 350 or 383, will make more power and in a more usable range at the same or cheaper price.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Don't you guys think it would be cool to see something different though? Cause lets be honest we see 383 and 350s all the time so they have lost their wow factor.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

And just to get this straight cause I think some people may be confused if they don't really know anything about the 302 because they are never talked about. The 305 and the 302 are completely different. The 302 is a large bore, small stroke engine and a 305 is a small bore, large stroke engine.

vetteoz

iTrader: (13)

Which traditional have little torque and require high(er ) revs to make power
A F1 engine makes 750Hp@ 18,000 rpm but only has 220 ft/lb of torque

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine..._cup_to_f1.htm

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

A 302 would definetly be cool, it's not that we don't want to see one, we just don't want to see you blow all your money on a dead end engine when you could spend less on a 350/383 and get more power and better rpm range powerband, but I'd love to see the 302, you just need to make sure you build it right

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Oh yeah agree it would make a good race car engine, but a horrible dragster engine.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

It definitely gonna require a lot of attention to detail, but I think it be worth it once I take it down to the race track.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

And Apeiron did you read the part of the article were it said "the LG4 produced 224 hp and 308 lb-ft of torque" or "With everything bolted in place, we ran the 305 in anger and were rewarded with peak numbers of 362 hp at 5,800 rpm and 353 lb-ft of torque at 4,500 rpm. Torque production with the upgrades exceeded 340 lb-ft from 3,500 rpm to 5,500 rpm, making for not only a broad torque curve but a 305 that no longer fell on its face after 5,000 rpm.
Measured peak to peak, we improved the power output by 138 hp and by over 170 hp out at 6,000 rpm. If 360 hp isn't enough, we certainly could coax 400 hp out of this combination by upping the compression (milling the heads) and/or stepping up in cam timing, but you start to trade-off things like idle quality, drivability and low-speed response for the stronger mid-range and top-end charge" Those aren't bad numbers.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

You guys are living in a dream world. You're getting great advice from several guys to not waste your time with a small displacement v8, and you just constantly ignore it for the sake of being "different". Being different is great but you're gonna be slower. Being different does not make more horsepower or save you money.

There's so much ignorance blowing around it's making my stomach turn. "Rev" ability in a smallblock chevy is dependent on camshaft and valve train. Then you build the bottom end to survive the abuse. There are big block turning 8000 RPM's. You have fundamental misunderstanding of how to make power.

The engine is an air pump. The more air that gets shoved in, the more torque you make. To make torque, you pump lots of air. Displacement sets an upper limit for air movement, and the airflow path restricts it from there (there are ways to get to 100% and higher volumetric efficiency but im not going to confuse you with that, it just comes with a well built engine).

Horsepower/speed is derived from torque. But horsepower is torque x RPM. The smallblock chevy is limited by being a 2 valve pushrod engine to being undervalved and limited in RPM capability. You can go higher in RPMs, but it cost a lot of money to make that happen within the Gen I sbc architecture. Beyond this, the smallblock chevy, like any other engine, has a limit on usable power band range, usually 3000-4000 RPMs of useful range.

To make power, you make torque quickly (Read: high RPMs). To make torque you flow more air. To flow more air quickly, you have to tune the whole engine for high RPMs, to tune the whole engine for high RPMs, you sacrifice low end power. It's a spiral-loop of performance requirements that inevitably result in streetability tradeoffs.

What does all this mean in the real world? The more displacement you have, the more torque you will make. The more torque you make, the higher you can shift the power band, the more you can shift that available torque up into the high RPMs, the bigger cam and heads you can use, the more power you can make. But THIS is the key, the more displacement you have, the more you can do all those things, and still have low end torque left over to move the car even outside of the engine's ideal operating range.

The goal is to make as much power as possible and still be able to drive the car. You balance drivability (low end torque/street manners/vacuum, etc, all either the same thing or symptoms of the same adjustments) with high RPM power. A secondary, or even more important goal for some, is to make as much power as possible within a given budget. Both will reach the same end result.

What you have is a mildly complicated system of inter-related factors, and in order to understand it, you need to spend some time figuring it out before you start throwing out nonsensical comments and regurgitating phrases from the 60s hoping it will stick. These old adages may be wrong, or they may be right, but the important thing is taht you understand the roots of them. If they are incorrect, there is a grain of truth or a reason for the misconception - figure it out!

Torque is created by airflow. Displacement sets an upper bound for maximum airflow. To make horsepower (torque x RPM) you can either 1. Increase airflow 2. Increase High RPM efficiency 3. Increase displacement.

Note how these 3 elements are all inter-related. Increasing displacement will increase airflow. Your volumetric efficiency will likely go down if you're using crappy heads, but even with craptastic factory heads, a 400 will pull more air through the same heads than a 265 will.

You can make a 305 fast with factory 416 heads. How? Spin it faster. Put a giant cam in it optimized for a 3000-7000 RPM power band, spin it to 7000 RPMs and the car will be very fast. But it will be unbearable to drive on the street because there's no torque left over in the low range and it will have terrible street manners.

Lets try a different way. We can just flow more air. Buy some AFR cylinder heads. $1500. That will flow more air throughout the power band. And you will get GREAT volumetric efficiency. Most of that 305 cubic inches will be filled with fresh air/fuel mix. If you want to make more power from there, what can you do? Optimize it for high RPM torque, or increase displacement. Or you can leave it alone. But remember, $1500 heads get more return for your investment on larger engines. Increasing the RPM capability of your bottom end gets expensive very quickly. Increasing the displacement of your bottom end starts to make more and more sense.

The logical conclusion to ALL of this is you make the biggest engine you can. The bigger the engine you make, the bigger parts you can put into it that flow more air. The problem is that most parts taht flow more air do so at higher RPMs and flow LESS at lower RPMs. Namely the camshaft, but heads with large ports have the same effect. You lose low RPM port velocity with big ports, ESPECIALLY with smaller displacement engines. Bigger engines allow for lower engine speeds with the same airflow advantages. More cubic inches offset EVERY one of these drawbacks that rear their heads on smaller engines.

Consider that a 305 TPI can spin to higher RPMs effectively than a 350 TPI without that terrible intake holding it back.... but which makes more power? The 350, even though its airflow capabilities tax out the TPI intake much sooner. If you put an intake/heads/cam optimized for high RPM onto a 302, it will work well at high RPMs. If you put that same cam, heads, and intake onto a 400 smallblock, it will make MORE power, at reasonable RPMs. The larger displacement flows more air per stroke, so everything behaves differently, and it brings the RPM range down.

BIG CUBIC INCHES FACILITATE BIG POWER.

Here's another angle. The Gen I sbc, frankly, is a terrible performance platform. It was good in its day, but it's better suited at towing RV's and groceries around. It's been surpassed. The torch has been passed off. the Gen III and Gen IV smallblock (the LSx engines) are much better. Why? The same 3 rules of power still apply. 1. Airflow 2. RPMs 3. displacement. So why is it so much better?

Because its MUCH more efficient with airflow, it's much lighter, and the engine management systems are far more advanced. Factory LS1 heads outflow most aftermarket Gen I heads. a 2002 LS1 head flows nearly 260cfm through the intake port. A vortec head cant hit 230cfm. A $1500 set of 180cc AFR heads for a Gen I block flows 260cfm, the same as a STOCK LS1 head. Thats why you can POUR money into a Gen I smallblock, $1500 for heads, $500+ for fancy roller camshafts and valvetrain, and on a 350, you struggle to hit factory LS1 power numbers.

Sure, you can put a big lumpy roller cam into your AFR headed 350, something like 230/230 duration at .550+ lift. And you can hit maybe 400... maybe 450hp and keep it marginally streetable. That's 50-100hp on an LS1. But remember, the LS1 is using a baby-sized factory cam and a manual 02 Z28 can put down 300 REAR WHEEL HORSEPOWER. 450 fwhp AFR/lumpy roller cam 350 will translate into 380-360 rwhp.

So now realize, when people are spending $1500 on cylinder heads, and $500+ on a roller cam and valve springs and fancy pants lifters for their Gen I sbc's, if they dont build a 383, a factory stock LS1 car is going to hang close with them. Some dentist with a mid life crisis compared to all of our work and money invested into a 350.

To build a NICE 302, 305, or a 327, or even a 350 for power these days is IDIOTIC unless you want a dentist in a bone stock LS1 car, or even an LT1 car to embarass you in every category except noise.

If you're going to put the money into a project to do it right. NICE heads, NICE medium sized roller camshaft, intake matched to everything else, headers, exhaust, etc etc... why on EARTH would you sandbag the potential of all your monetary investment with some puny 302 or 327? The high revving short stroke myth is BS, but with a 302 or 327 or even a 350, revving it is THE ONLY WAY you can be competitive, and that doesn't make for a fun street car. Plus the bottom end parts required to make a 7500 RPM 302<->350 are WAY more expensive than a stroker kit to make a medium RPM 383.


Remember, every single performance part you buy will have a tradeoff. You will lose low end torque, or gas mileage, low RPM port velocity, durability, vacuum, etc, and in exchange you get more horsepower. Do you know what the tradeoff is for discplacement? There isn't one. It's the ONE change you can make, that wont result in a loss of streetability in exchange for horsepower. Well, displacement and exhaust.

Try to understand the relationship between torque, RPMs, and horsepower. And then try to understand the relationship between a given performance part, displacement, and torque. And by torque in the second sentence, I mean where in the RPM range is torque added and where is it taken away. You will hopefully see the patterns.

Apeiron

$30/hr would sound like a good salary to scrub septic tanks until you found out you can make $50/hr doing something cleaner.

They're not bad numbers until you compare them to the numbers you get with less money and effort from a larger displacement engine.

Go ahead and pay more money to be slower trying to impress people with "different". Keep in mind you'll be seeking approval from two kinds of people. The first kind won't know enough to realize any difference, and the second kind will know better to not be impressed.

Better is to work to impress and satisfy yourself, which will save you from worrying what anyone here things, too.

Either way, regardless of what you decide to build in whatever configuration, less monkey-spank talk, more engine building.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Apeiron you are right. I do need to actually build something instead of just talking about it. I just trying to get an idea of what engine I really want to build. Which it looks like will probably be 377 or a 302.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

InfernalVortex No one in my area can afford a LS engine. We all have first gen small blocks, but seriously why would I spend 7 grand on a engine with 450HP when I could build a first generation small block that would kill it for that price. Heck I could just buy a 420HP crate 383 and super charge it for that price.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Not really. "Different" is another way of saying "I spent more money to go slower."

Plus, I don't see 383's "all the time". Many, perhaps, but not as common as 350's.

I'd like to see your supercharged 383 for $7k.

Or better yet, I'd like to see your $7k 450HP 302. That's where you started. See if it outruns somebody's $7k 450 HP LS. (Hint: It won't.)

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

you can get a 5.3 or 4,8 for a few hundred bucks. throw budget turbos together and youll surpass your expectations.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LU...s/?prefilter=1 http://www.ebay.com/itm/327-350-CHEV...item519e9b0427 http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI...m=350564404376 then I still have a couple grand to do cam, gaskets, bearing, oil pan and such.

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

that turbo kit is probably only good for piping otherwise many say the turbos are junk. still the 5.3 ls based engine would be a better starting platform for a turbo build

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Tyler do you mean all turbos are junk or just the turbos in that kit are junk?

tylercamaro

iTrader: (1)

the ebay turbo kits turbos seem to be crappy quality. ive seen ore bad reviews than good ones about them. the piping and all that would be good to use but i think as far as ive seen for the turbos to last at all they need to be rebuilt a way or something otherwise as far as bolting them on and going is concerned they tend to fail

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

So how would you go about rebuilding the turbo to make it better?

project89

iTrader: (1)

that turbo kit is junk
the only thing out of it to use would be the turbos, the intercooler,the pipeing/couplers/,the wastegates gates the catchcan and the bovs, the headers will stick the turbos out of the hood of the thirdgen

everythign else u would throw away cause they are junk



the smart way to do it is to peice the stuff together seperatly

2 ebay 57mm turbos 118$ each
2 ebay 38mm wastegates 53$ each
1 rfl bov ebay 32$'s
1 ebay 32xx12x4 intercooler with piping and couplers 175$
misc oil lines and fittings 75$ ( and not cheap ebay stuff , get fragola pushloc fittings and parker pushloc hose)
misc flanges about 50 bucks

then build ur own log headers

thats what i did in my car , witht he aftermarket ecm, injectors and fuel pumps i spent ar und 1,900 bucks to put twin turbos on my iroc

project89

iTrader: (1)

those ebay turbos are fine so are the gt45's problem with the ones in that kit is they are just a tad undersized for a 350v8

the 57mm units are a much better fit and are only 118 bucks each

whatever84

Don't you guys think it would be cool to see something different though? Cause lets be honest we see 383 and 350s all the time so they have lost their wow factor.


OK, I have a solution build a 350 or 383 and tell everyone it's a 302....Problem solved.


Mark.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Project would a cowl induction hood make them fit? And whatever84 I could probably get away with that too. haha

Apeiron

Tell them it's a 265, they look the same on the outside until you really look.

Anyway most people won't be able to tell the difference if you said it was a 24 cylinder marine diesel, much less care.

project89

iTrader: (1)

no they wouldnt let me find the picture of the firebird with tthat turbo kit on it

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Okay thanks Project

project89

iTrader: (1)

they wont fit under a normal cowl hood as the cowl isnt wide enough

there is that other nice cowl hood that is much wider but i dont belive its high enough

thats why i made my own turbo headers


fits with tons of room under a stock hood

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

If that were my Firebird I would put hood scoops on it like off of the old GTOs. So how hard is making turbo headers?

project89

iTrader: (1)

its not to bad if u know what your doing
if u want a set of those headers i can build u a set for 300 bucks+ shippping which would be no more then 30bucks anywere in the usa

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

I may just take you up on that next summer.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Its about more than HP. The Gen III+ engines are lighter. Better fuel injection, better gas mileage, etc etc.

And I took a gander around the Ohio craigslist cities... only found one LS1 for sale... but here it is:

http://columbus.craigslist.org/pts/2960936335.html

Nowhere near $7k.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

That is the first I have seen, but you can get an old running 70s 350 for anywhere inbetween $1200 and $500 depending on the model and people sell their running 305s for $100-250. That town is 3 hours away from where I live.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I drove 7 hours one way just to buy my car. I drove 2 hours to get my T56. Are you afraid of driving? Whats one afternoon of driving to get a good deal on a sweetcake engine like an LS1?

70s 350's are the epitome of garbage. 305's should be given away for free. Period. If you want to go through all taht trouble to have some terrible 70s 350 or 305, then by all means, dont let me or anyone else stop you.

But you can get an LS1 for $2500-$4000 easy. You can get a truck 5.3 or 6.0 for $500-$1500. WAY better option than some junky 70s 350 thats worth more as a paperweight than an engine. Dont even consider a block that isn't a roller block.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Why would I pay that for a 350HP, 365 pounds of torque motor? When I could build a 305 or even a 305 to do the same with the same price? Plus I would have to buy a new transmission and mess with making it mount. A 350 or 305 I could just drop in and bolt it right up.

midias

Because it is all aluminum?

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

But with the money I save on the transmission I could have the 350 and maybe the 305 making more power which would make up for that weight.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Dude you have paid attention to nothing? A 305 that puts out power equal to an LS1 is NOT STREETABLE. I HAVE SEEN IT. He even drove it on the street everyday, but I guarantee you that most people here would call that a track only car.

You will pay more than that LS1 costs to make a 305 make that much power, and the LS1 is still factory bone stock and the 305 needs a HUGE stall converter at 4.10 gears in the back.

That LS1, with just an intake swap, and a cam swap, will put out 450hp and still get 30mpg and still be daily drivable. You could probably even register it in california if you wanted! You could go to 500, 600hp pretty easy out of it if you wanted to get to the same streetability levels of your hypothetical 305.

I've explained this to you. A 305's displacement puts an upper bound on how much air that engine can flow. The best heads in the world and the biggest cam you can tolerate on the street will make 325-375 flywheel horsepower on a 305, but it will be HORRIBLE to drive around EVER, much less on a regular basis.

midias

A 305 making LS1 power would not be streetable. Also it is not just about weight saving but also about street manners and the LS1 will idle reliably at 400hp and the 305 would not even come close. Also there is a difference between 360hp at 6000 and 360 hp at 5000 rpm.

Also the weight savings is also about making the car less front heavy so it handles better.

midias

Don't forget the 305 cannot handle more than 1.94 valves so it really cannot make **** for power the way a 4 inch bore can.

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

Here read this article on the 305 its really good http://www.superchevy.com/technical/...d/viewall.html So a 305 will be just fine on the street at 360HP and 350 pounds or torque and a 350 would be better yet than the 305.

Apeiron

Put down the magazine and go drive one before you decide it's streetable.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

And lets talk about making a 305 make 350fwhp.

It will take aftermarket aluminum heads or ported, specific, factory heads. It will take a big roller cam. It iwll take ARP rod bolts and it wouldnt be a bad idea to get H-beam rods to help it hold itself together. Nice aftermarket crank. Cast is okay, but it's gotta be a quality crank to handle 6500+ RPMs. Big cam needs strong valve springs. You'll need a good intake. Kiss that TPI goodbye. You iwll need a Holley 650DP at least, and Performer RPM or a single plane intake. You will need 4.10+ rear end gears, you will need a huge stall converter. You will need the best headers you can fit on it. The cheapest yuo could do it is Hedman long tubes and a dual 2.5 exhaust. And you will HATE every second of trying to drive it on the street. You will be turning 4000 RPM just to get it rolling from a stop sign.

Just not practical at all.

Lets do it with a 350.

You will need at least Vortec heads. You will need a roller camshaft like an xr276. You will need the same awesome exhaust you would have put on the 305. The same carburetor and intake (Performer RPM or better), and you'll need to tune it perfectly. You MIGHT crack out of it around 350-370 fwhp if you're lucky. And it will have much better street manners. But most 350's have a hard time putting out 350 fwhp and staying streetable. The key is to use Vortecs or aftermarket aluminum heads like Brodix IK180s or AFR180's or so on and so forth. Cheap pro comp crap isnt gonna cut it. You will still need a stall, but a less extreme one, and you will probably need 3.42 gears to help get it rolling.

Those 70s 350 heads, cams, intakes, carbs are not good enough. they iwll keep you at 150fwhp. You need to spend some big money on heads. And at the end of the day, you've barely eeked out LS1 levels of power for more than an LS1 costs, with less gas mileage, and the smog police will tear you a new butt hole if you ever go to a place where that matters.

The LS1 weighs 200 lbs less. It makes the same power as the hotted up 350 does with a factory cam. Just an LS1 alone is enough to get a thirdgen into the 12's. If you put a new cam and intake on the LS1 you're 450+hp. You will NEVER get a streetable 350 to 450+ horsepower. It just won't happen. You gotta be building that thing PERFECTLY to get anywhere near 400hp on a streetable 350. It's just not that easy to do. The LS1 can hit that if you sneeze on it wrong. Plus, like I said, it's 200lbs lighter and gets better gas mileage and it will do all that through factory exhaust. Put some long tubes and duals on it and you get even more out of it. Simple bolt on mods with an LS1 will walk well-built mild 383's!

mustangdmurder

iTrader: (3)

I know that that, but for my application 360HP and 350 pounds of torque will be great. Plus you didn't just say building a 305 is idiotic. You said building any first generation small block instead of a LS is idiotic. That includes the 4+ bores 350, 383 and 400.