Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

This thread isn't likely to be terribly interesting, but since there aren't a whole lot of Vortec TPI builds on here, I figured I'd start this. Please accept my apologies for the long-winded ramble, but I want to make sure I provide the full background on this swap, since it's 1 part of a 2-car "musical Engines" swap that I'm doing.

First, a little bit of history.

Back in the late 90s I built a .030-over 350 for my 86 2.8 firebird. I built the motor with a stock crank, stock rods, forged flat-top pistons, a 214/224 Summit cam, and a set of 461 fuelie heads. Back then the Internets were small and thirdgen.org was still being hosted on Dirk's arizona.edu site, so most of my parts knowledge came from local "experts" and by reading the Summit catalog. I guess that explains how I wound up with a set of boat-anchor fuelie heads. Before I finished building the motor, I came to my senses and sold the firebird and bought my 85 IROC, and decided to keep the TPI, which is NOT exactly a good match for 461 heads. Combine that with having the wrong spark plugs, 24lb injectors, a stock 85 computer, and a weak 700R4, and the net result was a 16.1 second 1/4 mile time out of my new 350. Over the years I upgraded to an accel base, SLP runners, 165 ECM with custom chip, and swapped the 700R4 for a T5. In that time I was able to bring my 1/4 mile times down from the inital 16.1 to a best of 13.6@101 mph. Right before that run, I dynoed the car and the motor put down 250 RWHP and 300RWTQ. Not too bad for such a mismatched combo. I will provide updated dyno & 1/4 mile stats after this motor is in the GTA. This should provide a good resource for what kind of improvement the Vortec heads will make.

Here's a video of the 1/4 mile run:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs-ggrfooLk

Here's a pic of the dyno graph:


Here are a couple vids of the dyno run. The first vid was shot by my buddy from the rear of the car, and the 2nd was shot by another attendee from the front:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nzsw5BeVxLs&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcJMuoRT_Ms&NR=1

In any event, for the last couple years I've been building a 403 cube LSx for the IROC, which can be seen in this build thread:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...d-85-iroc.html

A couple weeks ago the 350 finally came out of the IROC, and now I'm modifying it in preparation of putting it, along with the IROC's T5 into my 88 GTA. The GTA currently has a 100% bone stock, worn out TPI 305 and an equally worn out T5.

Here's a pic of the GTA:


So, back to the motor. Years ago I bought a used set of SDPC-modified Vortec heads that are said to be good for up to .525 or .550 lift. The valve seat is machined so that it doesn't interfere with the spring retainers, allowing for more lift. My plan is to buy the SDPC Vortec base, though it's entirely possible that I may call an audible and buy a Vortec Stealth Ram instead. I'm also planning on retaining the current cam (214/224 .442/.465 112lsa) if I stick with the TPI, but will likely add a set of 1.6 rockers if I can get a set at the right price.

Here's a pic of the 350 right before I pulled it out of the IROC:


Here's a pic of it on the stand, with the plenum & runners off:


Intake base off. You can see how clean the lifter valley is:


I pulled the heads off, and was happy to see that the cross-hatch pattern is still fully visible on all 8 cylinders. Some show some vertical-lines, but no scratches:


And a pic of how it currently sits:


You can see that one of the pistons is cleaned up slightly. I wanted to measure how deep the piston sat in relation to the deck height. My best measurement shows that the piston is just about .020" below the deck height. Honestly, I didn't expect it to sit that far down in the hole. I'm going to finish cleaning it and take some measurements at the bottom as well, in case the piston isn't 100% perpendicular to the bore. My goal is to have .040" of quench, which will require a .020" head gasket. I hadn't expected to need such a thin head gasket, so I want to make sure that my measurements are right before I order my head gaskets.

This is where I'm at right now, and I will continue to update the thread as progress is made.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

with your attention to detail in the 402 build thread, i'm excited to see what comes of this thread. whether you know it or not, the tools you use in these threads, half the folks on here don't even know what they are, let alone how to use them, so keep up the good work!

my guess: if you stick with the tpi and rv cam, i think it'll be in the 275/360 range. if you go to an HSR and a well matched cam, it could be in the 330/390 or higher range

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I'm sure I could make more horsepower with the HSR, but I'm hesitant to go that route for a few reasons. Mostly, I want that strong low and midrange torque that you get with TPI. My Corvette was a boat load of fun to drive. Secondly, when I built this motor, I never balanced the rotating assembly... I never knew any better. With those heavy forged slugs, I'm afraid that the motor will rattle itself apart at high rpms. And lastly, I sold my Vette, and went to an LS in the IROC... The GTA is my last remaining TPI car so I want to keep the TPI around. At least, that's how I feel today.

khulsebus

iTrader: (2)

I vote for keeping the TPI, as a sleeper look, just porting the hell out of it and sending it to extrude hone to make it flow a bit better.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

That's way out of the budget. My money is going into my IROC. This is mostly a "leftovers" build.

V6canvas

iTrader: (1)

Someone needs to keep a TPI around , love your attention to detail and showing/explaining what you're doing and the tools used. The TPI will let you have a nice relaxing cruiser type engine.

91phoenix

iTrader: (5)

Subscribed as I have been thinking about building a vortec head TPI to swap into my V6 bird.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Well, the direction that I'm taking this motor has become a little more clear. I found a like-new SDPC vortec intake on Craigslist and jumped on it. I also ordered up some Fel-Pro 1094 .015" head gaskets, and some PRW 1.6 roller-tip self aligning rockers, which I'll use with my existing cam.

So, final specs on the motor:
- Stock crank & rods
- .030 forged flat top pistons
- Summit flat tappet cam, 214/224 .471/.496 (1.6 ratio) 112 LSA
- SDPC-modified Vortec heads with Z28 springs, good to .525" lift
- SDPC Vortec intake
- SLP runners with port matched plenum
- 1 5/8" Heddman headers & y-pipe
- Overall compression ratio calculates out to about 10.2:1 with .040" of quench area.

Now I just need to actually do the work. About the only parts that I still need to buy are the valve covers & gaskets.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Oh, and in case anybody was wondering, generic Grade 8 bolts seem to work just fine in lieu of actual cylinder head bolts. Back when I built that motor I knew no differently, and used the pile of bolts that the machinist gave me. I noticed when I yanked the heads this week that they were regular good old grade 8 bolts. I also noticed that I installed them with no sealant. It's a miracle that I never had coolant get into my oil, nor did I ever have oil leak out of the short bolts.

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.

wyochimneysweep

iTrader: (1)

sounds like a great build. Have you thought about going to obd2?

wyochimneysweep

iTrader: (1)

this weekend i'm adding 1.6 rockers and new springs. 60 lb injectors and 1 5/8 to 3inch hedman headers along with complete 3 inch dual mendral bent exhaust with a x pipe.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

It's something I may do down the road, but for now I'll stick with the stock 165 ecm. I'm familiar with it... I swapped one into the IROC years ago and I have all of the tuning equipment for it already.

wyochimneysweep

iTrader: (1)

Yeah I had all the equipment for the 165 also. The obd2 is so much nicer. I'm so glad I upgraded. Next is the 24x system so I can run CNP next.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Last night I cleaned up my old 461 heads then put them in a box for safe keeping until I can sell them. I took the opportunity to compare one of the Vortec heads to one of my 461s.

The two next to each other, showing the Vortec's unique intake runner shape:


The two combustion chambers:


The Vortec head after I cleaned it up a bit:


The top side. These things are like brand new. Considering that I bought these used back in 2006, and they've been sitting on my garage stairs wrapped in Saran Wrap since then, I'm very happy at how good they look.

1bad91Z

iTrader: (1)

Keep the Vortec / TPI combo! The one I built runs pretty good..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfLWpAy0c1o

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Got any dyno or 1/4 mile numbers? That seems like a lot of cam for TPI.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Tonight I cleaned up the other head. After seeing how great the first head was, I got cocky and expected this one to be the same way. Life always manages to self-correct my ego one way or another.

This head looks like it got dropped down a flight of stairs. Overall no big deal, except one deep crease right at the top of the head. It looks like this one's getting torn down and sent off to the machine shop to get the surface decked.



I've got half a mind to slag some RTV in there, slap it together and then see how long it lasts.

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

Subscribed good luck

watajob

iTrader: (29)

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

Jim have you noticed there aren't many Dyno #'s or 1/4 mile times out there for this setup. I wish there were more info...

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Yes, I have. Most people are smart enough to avoid this combination. I'll have dyno numbers eventually, though I doubt that the numbers will be anything spectacular considering how mild this overall build is.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I just talked to my machine shop guy, and he said that just the rough finish alone on the stock heads is enough to cause problems with the steel shim head gaskets, so tomorrow I'm dropping both heads off to have them resurfaced.

dprest68

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, that's probably a good idea. Are you going to have him check the heads over while they are there?

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I didn't specifically ask him to, no. I'm sure if he sees something he'll tell me, but I looked them over as I cleaned them and found nothing that concerned me aside from this deep scratch.

watajob

iTrader: (29)

Hey! I resemble that remark! If the numbers are to be believed, my Trickflow 175's don't flow that much more than Vortecs. And, I have a bit less cam/compression than you. Plus, my quench is mediocre at best. But, I'll have dyno sheets by Monday as I'm going here this weekend to get it tuned:
http://madtuner.com/
That's if it all stays together!

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Got the heads back. Nice flat decks now, and he only had to take off .007". He commented about how good the heads looked. "These things look brand new... not 'cleaned up like new', but brand new, like they came off a crate motor". I guess he liked them.



I also got some stuff in the mail. My head gaskets and intake gaskets came in, as well as my vortec TPI base. Man these head gaskets are THIN! And the intake gaskets are alarmingly thick! I didn't expect intake gaskets to be over 1/8" thick. They also don't seem to align perfectly with the head ports, so I may have to do some work to them. We'll see.

The vortec base looks great. Like the heads, it looks virtually brand new. Once I clean it up, I doubt you'll ever know it was used.


One thing that's going to need some attention is the intrusion of the injector bosses into the airflow path. I've got a few different types of injectors that I'm going to try, and based on how they sit in the bosses, I'm hoping to be able to cut away a lot of the boss material. As long as there's enough there to hold the injector where it rests on the pad, I should be able to cut away the rest.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Not much progress as of late. Over the weekend I had to work on my bathroom remodel, and tonight I started tearing apart the 302 I bought for my father's mustang. But, I thought I'd show some rocker arm candy.

V6canvas

iTrader: (1)

nice eye candy!

LilSki

iTrader: (1)

I think you will be very happy with this setup. I just finished a Vortec TPI build and am very happy with it. Mine is still pretty mild with an LT1 cam as I wasn't looking to go crazy but it runs very strong and traction can be a problem in 1st and 2nd gear.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

My goals are pretty low with this motor, so I'm sure I'll be happy. I made 250RWHP with the 461 heads, and I'm hoping that between the Vortec heads and the 1.6 rockers that I can get to 275RWHP. Mostly I want that crisp throttle response that my 91 Corvette had. With the old heads, the motor had a very lazy throttle response, though there may be some contributing factors beyond the cylinder heads.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Sounds like the porting your wanting to do to the base is exactly what was done to the SDPC V base I had for sale. Plus mine was opened up along the roof, pinch points and smoothed out all the way through.
If you do that and port the runners like they need to be you should make some nice power.
These are old pix of the runners and the porting has gone farther since then.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

The porting on my runners is much more mild than that. I should try to get some pictures of them while they're apart though.

LilSki

iTrader: (1)

I gasket matched the lowers with the larger Mr Gasket gaskets and left the upper and plenum alone for now. I wanted to run the car without porting to see if there were any noticeable gains after porting.

Are you staying with the T5 in the GTA?

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Yeah.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Oh look out, its the T5.....

J/K couldn't pass that up!!

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

Do you still have the stock shortblock? Have you dyno'd or gone to the track?

LilSki

iTrader: (1)

Stock motor was a carbed 305 with T5. The Vortec is stock out of a 98 GMC 2500. It is a 4 bolt main block in which I installed a new crank, bearings, rings, and LT1 cam. Rods and pistons are original.

Unfortunately I have not dyno'd nor have gone to the track as there is no such thing around here. I would actually love to get some dyno time to fine tune my megasquirt. But it really isn't an option around here.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Don't think that I haven't spent plenty of time worrying about that! The transmission has been flawless for years behind the 250RWHP 350. Hopefully it's willing to tolerate a little bit more.

LilSki

iTrader: (1)

I went through 2 NWC units. But one was a V6 box and the other was tired when I put it in. Now I have the T56 which is sooo much nicer.

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

definitely going to watch this thread.. ive wanted to see what a vortec headed mild tpi setup can do

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I made some minor progress over the last couple days. Last summer in preparation for this swap, I bought a stock-style steel oil pan to replace the aluminum one that I originally put on the motor. I don't like the location of the drain plug on the aluminum one... it's smack on the bottom of the oil pan, which makes it very vulnerable. I've scraped it a number of times, and I'm lucky that I didn't sheer the plug or break the whole bottom of the cast pan off. It's also bulky, which doesn't leave much room for my y-pipe. Last night I primed and painted the new oil pan.

Tonight I cleaned up my Vortec intake, and played with some injectors to see how they fit.

First, here's a pic that really highlights how much the injector bosses protrude into the intake runner:


The chamfer that the injector o-ring seals to is about 1/4" above the bottom of the boss, so I can remove at least that much, and smooth it and re-profile it.

Here's a pic of a couple different injectors sitting in the manifold:


You can see in the pic above that when installed, they both sit at the same height, but from the bottom side you can clearly see that some styles protrude deeper than others. The one on the left is a Marren stock-style Bosch injector, and the one on the right is a late model (98) Ford Type II injector:


Here's the intake all cleaned up. I'm not sure why I bothered, since I'm just going to get it filthy when I port it:


And the underside all clean:

V6canvas

iTrader: (1)

Looking good, shiny parts are always nicer to look at/work with!

Definitely want to pick which injector you want to go with and unshroud it as much as possible.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I'm probably going to keep my 24lb SVO injectors that I used with the old heads. I didn't feel like pulling my old intake apart to retrieve those, so I grabbed what I had around.

Drifter92

Beautiful car

kagtech

I subscribed to this. As I am in the process of completing the install of a Vortec 350 from a 96 Chevy Tahoe into my 87 FB Formula. Will not be using TBI or TPI. My car was originally a Carb so will keep that setup.

c4ta

will be reading on. i will be starting my in car vortec top swap in 2 weeks or so.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I've got some more minor updates. Most of my garage time has been spent on the 302 budget build that I'm doing for my Dad's mustang, but I did sneak some time in on my motor tonight.

I painted the oil pan last week, and tonight I got around to installing it. Nothing too exciting, but at least it's progress!



After that I decided that maybe I'd spray some copper on my head gaskets and install my heads. Earlier this week I cut some slots into a 7/16" bolt and used it to clean the threads in the head, so I'm pretty much ready to install the heads. I heard some rumblings on here about the Fel Pro 1094 gaskets not lining up properly with the coolant holes on the vortec heads, so I wanted to investigate. What I found is that all of the holes line up perfectly with the Vortec heads, but the three large triangular openings in the heads that correspond with the large round openings in the block have only very small passages in the head gaskets. I posted a question on Nastyz28.com about it because there are a lot of guys over there running these head gaskets with Vortec heads, and the early indication is that these restrictions are there to promote more even coolant flow toward the back of the block. I'm going to give that thread a little more time to develop, but I'm inclined to believe that these gaskets are safe considering how many guys over there run them with Vortec heads. Anyway, here are a couple pics to illustrate:

Head gasket lined up on the head to show the good fit. Notice the tiny holes in the areas below the intake runners:


And here's a pic of the gasket offset on the block so you can see the holes compared to the large diameter holes in the block:


If you scroll up higher in this thread you'll find pics of the 461 heads that I pulled off the motor, and those coolant openings are much smaller than the Vortec heads, and smaller than the large openings on the block, but still much larger than the tiny openings in the 1094 gaskets. What I don't know is whether the composite Fel Pro head gaskets I ran with those heads had any kind of restriction or not.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Made some progress on the motor tonight. I started by pulling out all of the flat tappet lifters, coating them with assembly lube and reinstalling:


Since this block has never been decked, and isn't likely to be 100% flat after all these years, I decided to coat the side of the gaskets that face the block with copper spray. Previously I did go over the deck surface with a file to take down all of the high spots, but I wanted the extra insurance of a little copper spray on these thin head gaskets:


Since the heads were freshly decked, I didn't feel that the copper spray was necessary on that side:


Amazingly, after 12 years and approximately 12k miles, I never had any coolant get into my oil nor leak out of the block despite never having used sealant on the head bolts, but this time I was smarter and coated them with sealant. I also coated the washers and the heads with moly lube.


All torqued!


And I couldn't resist one beauty shot, though these valve covers are likely only temporary. If I do decide to use them permanently, they'll get a nice coat of silver paint:


Next I need to start porting the Vortec TPI base.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

i take it the verdict on the head gaskets was that they would be fine?

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Yeah. Based on what I could find, every head gasket restricts those water ports, and in order to get coolant to the back of the block. Everything else lined up perfectly with the deck.