GreggymacZ28

So i'm looking at a 355 to put in my camaro, and i was wondering if you guys think its worth the price, and is pushing the hp the owner says, here are the specs:
Chevy 355 bored .30 over
Vortech 602 heads 64cc combustion chamber
vortech block
eldelbrock performer dual plane intake
square bore holley carbueretor
194 valves
GM performance roller cam
Hyperutectic pistons
and its a 4 bolt main block.
And the price he is asking is 1,200$ and he says its pushing 375 hp, but probably around 350 for sure. I've seen alot of people get fooled on engines, so i would just like to see what you guys think! thanks!

Guest

Hopefully you meant 062 heads, and all stock '96-up Vortecs came with the hydraulic roller lifters. If he can't specify which cam, then assume 255 HP. 375 HP would be about right with the ZZ4 cam and the RPM AirGap intake.
Why is it up for sale? If they can prove all those claims, then the price seems good.

GreggymacZ28

He just rebuilds engines to rebuild them basically. He bought the house next door to him and basically just filled it with engines and parts. He had the engine apart when i got there to prove everything, except for the cam, and then he spends 3 days putting everything together if i decide to buy it. And yes i meant 062 heads, sorry! Alright i'll try to figure out the cam though, and then ill let you know. thanks!

torque_is_good

when you say that "he just rebuilds engines" do you mean that he has a full machine shop setup in his house? Does he send the blocks and heads out for machine work?

who cleans and inspects the block

who bores and hones?

Who decks the block?

who does the alignment honing?

Does he re-use parts? If so, who resizes the rods and crank?

who does the head work?

1gary

X2.If it is a hand hone with over sized rings........well.

GreggymacZ28

Yes, he has a machine shop setup in his garage. He does everything you named except for boring, which his buddy does at his own machine shop. He knows what cam is in it, i just dont remember what the guy said it was. He was going to write it all down. I'm confident the guy knows what he's talking about, that wasnt the question i had. I was just curious to if the specs of this engine are meeting 350 hp. When i get more info. on the cam ill let you know, thanks.

GreggymacZ28

update, the cam is a HT383 cam .431 intake/.451 exhaust lift, and the duration is 196 deg intake and 206 deg exhaust.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

That is a TINY cam. That's about stock I think? Are the heads 602 or 062?

A zz4 cam with a Vortec 355 I dont think will make 375hp. It might make 350 at the flywheel, it might even make 375 at the flywheel, But I dont think it will put 375 to the ground. It would be a good performer, regardless, though.

To the OP, Vortecs with mild performance cams can do amazing things. With massive cams, I dont think they're worth the trouble. The ports stall at around .470 lift, which is also about the guideline for max recommended valve lift coincidentally. If you stay around .500 lift or lower with a medium cam (215/215 to 225/225ish), you're playing to the vortecs' strong suit- amazing torque and great flow. They work best with medium sized cams due to the stall at .470-.500 lift, and the smallish ports cripple them with big cams at big RPMs anyway.

GreggymacZ28

The heads are 062. And when i was talking hp i meant flywheel, so 350 at the flywheel is really my goal. To the wheel i will work on next as i want to change a few thing in the rearend and get some new tires that will help out. But to the cam, thats really good to know, i'm not very experienced in vortech but the seller knows and sounds like even though the cam isnt the biggest it will perform well, thanks!

1gary

I recognize that cam.In fact early on it was in the running for my 383 build.I know one guy that used that on a crate 350.Smooth idle and a surprising amount of low end torque.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

That cam will work well. you'll get great drivability and good gas mileage and the vortecs will cover the slack and make the thing pull like a tug boat.

But it leaves a little power on the table. But all in all that's a decent engine. Great for an every day driver, and if you get bored with it and swap cams and put an RPM intake on it, you'll get a whole new beast out of it.

As it sits, it would probably beat a stock L98 car, but I dont think it would be by much. I would hazard a guess at 275 flywheel horsepower. If it's built well and machinework is good it's a good little engine. $1200 would be good if it's very low miles or new. The fact that it's a roller block with a roller cam and vortec heads mean you're way ahead of the curve even if the cam and intake are leaving a lot of high end horsepower on the table.

GreggymacZ28

I guess i never clarified, the engine is 100% new. And also, the intake i have on it that i listed in the first post is a RPM performer intake. That's where im believing this is pushing atleast 325 hp. Engine pick-up is tomorrow, so ill post some pics up for you guys to see that should help!

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The cam and intake aren't a good match. The HT383 makes max power at only 4500 RPMs. The intake is going to hurt the cam's low-end, and the cam is going to hurt the intake's top-end.

The HT383 makes 340 peak HP, so ratioing the displacement, a .030"-over 350, all other things being equal, would make around 315 peak HP.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

It's just an Edelbrock Performer dual plane... pretty much a stock replacement intake. Why do you think it will hurt the cam's low end more than any other intake?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Because he said:

A "regular" Performer is the correct match for the cam.

Mortorq

GreggymacZ28---Would your engine builder be a "Ralph" in Manitowoc Wi?
I'd like to know how well your engine turned out.

GreggymacZ28

No, im in Michigan sorry! and the guy who's doing the engine knows what he's putting into it, and he has people who he's sold these engines too getting 350+ hp. Doesnt seem like the intake is hurting them that bad then? who knows! Ill find alot more out when i get the engine, he had the wrong oil pan sent to him, so hes getting a new one and i should have it by tomorrow? Once i can inspect it more ill give you guys more details!

GreggymacZ28

Ok update, i just found the paper i was writing on while talking to the guy to make sure i remembered everything, and i forgot to mention that the pistons are flat top pistons, not the stock dish ones. And also he said he is using thinner gaskets, he said it has a 10.5:1 compression.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Ive heard people say Vortecs and flattops are 10.5:1 before... I dont know how tehy do their math, but I always come up with around 9.5:1.

You really need a bigger cam. That whole engine sounds decent except for that teeny weeny cam in it.

Guest

If a Vortec head is 64 cc, which mine aren't, and if the piston is 5cc of valve reliefs, and at standard 4.000" bore, and at 0.025" deck-down ( new stock 350, all years '67-present ) and with a FelPro 1094 to get the ideal 0.040" quench, the math looks like this:
Swept volume: 4.000 x 0.5 = 2.000. 2.000 squared is 4.000 x 51.49 ( constant for conversion ) x 3.48 = 716.7408 cc.
Do it again at 0.025" for the deck volume of 5.149 cc.
64 + 5.149 + 5 + 3.2 = 77.349.
Now, 716.7408 + 77.349 = 794.0898. 794.0898 / 77.349 = 10.266323:1
So, where the heck are you getting 9.5:1 from?

Mortorq

Yes, you might want a slightly bigger cam with more duration to bleed off some of that compression at lower rpms to help ward of detonation with those iron heads. Mid 220's @.050" or so.

1gary

Hey Ronn,He said it is a 355 which would be .030 over.He also said the builder used a thin head gasket.Lord knows what that means.So we don't know for sure the CC of the heads,what gasket was used,and then plugged in a standard bore when it's not.I don't remember if I left this link before,but it is easy to use if you have accurate values to plug in:

http://www.csgnetwork.com/automotiveconverters.html

And yeah-I do push the site some because it pretty much covers everything.

Guest

Doesn't matter. You still can't get 9.5:1 from flat-tops, 64cc, and thin head gaskets. In fact, overbores just increase the swept volume, so static CR goes UP. Towards 10.5:1. Away from 9.5:1.
Any gasket thicker will require block decking to maintain quench, and as long as the quench is around 0.035"-0.045", you're still not getting a 350 to 9.5:1 with 64 cc and flat tops.
If the heads have been milled, then that also drives the SCR up.
Worst case scenario, with standard bore, 0.045" quench, 64 cc heads, and KB 7 cc pistons, you're still over 10.0:1.
And since I showed how the math works, you don't need any online calculator.

1gary

Ronn.Please consider this bud.With all due respect.It's great that you know the math,very cool.I suggest aside from SCR question on that link is a number of other formulas and you just plug in the numbers to get a result.It's easier to use and we have a ref for those that chose to bookmark.I get the feeling you haven't looked in detail what is on there.Could I please suggest you give it a shot.

I know we don't know each other yet,so for a ref for you,I knew the list of changes that could increase the SCR already.

Greggy-sorry for the off topic post.Please understand I needed to clear the air.

Thanks guys

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

You're right.

I dont know how, I remember playing with those calculators a lot back in the day and alwys got around 9.3-9.6:1, in addition I swear I remember most 64cc headed GM 350s got flat tops and they are always around 9.5:1 too. I guess I'm remembering wrong.

I stand corrected. I'm actually kind of intrigued to know taht my SCR is a lot higher than I had originally calculated, or apparently to be more accurate - speculated.

GreggymacZ28

Infernal, im just wondering, what does your car do in a quarter mile? I see our engines are similar, and i know our times wont be exact but im just curious!

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Im not a drag racer. The one clean run I made, it trapped at 102. The launch was awful and I was still learning how to drive it, and my ET was awful, but that mph is good for mid 13's. I've seen people go 13.2 at 102 before. With my tiny cam and god awful gearing, it's a testament to how good these heads are.

GreggymacZ28

haha alright man! Sounds good though! Thats right around where i wanna go, maybe high 12's? who knows! but thanks again!

GreggymacZ28

Ok well here is an update on everything that i've done. I did get the 355 and i dropped it in and everything, everything was looking and soundinhg great, just needed a cowl hood cause the air cleaner stuck up to much. But I took it out for a spin yesterday, and of course, the first time driving it, and the first time i take off a little hard, breaks the trans. I figured this would happen, but not that quickly or easily, i was planning to go to the track tomorrow, but obviously thats not happening. I'm talking to a buddy of mine, and i think i will be getting a th350 with a 2500 stall. Does that sound like it will hold up?