Fallen2603

DISCLAIMER: This thread is all about HOW best to do this swap. I AM NOT INTERESTED IN ANYTHING ELSE. This includes how stupid, crazy, or insane you think I am for doing anything but a SBC or LSx swap into these cars. Actually, if you think I'm crazy or insane, thank you. But...I don't want to hear anyone tell me, "Just swap a V8 in there..." or anything similar. All I want to know and hear from this thread is how to do this swap. ANYTHING ELSE, OTHER THAN THE PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD, WILL BE SUMMARILY IGNORED.

Okay, how do I swap an Ecotec into a 3rd-Gen Camaro?

Mainly, I am concerned with mounting the engine to the K-member, and whether or not the stock Aisin AR5 found behind the RWD versions of these motors will mount up with the trans-crossmember?

How do the RWD versions of the Ecotec motors mount into the Solstice and the Sky? Anyone know? I'm guessing there are mounting bosses on either side of the engine, but not sure. What kind of mounts/brackets can I use to mount the engine up properly? I will not use/make custom solid-mounts. I don't want my teeth chattering out of my head...

I am primarily assuming that the trans-crossmember will have to be a custom piece, if I retain the Aisin AR5, as well as a custom-length driveshaft. However, I have found Ecotec to T5 bellhousings. Does anyone know how much torque the Aisin AR5 can be built to take?

Like I said, I'm looking for information, and INFORMATION ONLY, on how best to do this swap. I am NOT INTERESTED in anyone else giving me their personal opinion on this swap. So, if you feel like you have to give your personal opinion on why to not do this swap, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.

Any information and help would be GREATLY APPRECIATED.

Thanks,
Jeremy

89fbirdformula

NORMALLY, im all against this kinda stuff...

But, looking at the average car thats put out these days for market...

i like this idea...

id rather drive a 4banger fbody getting 30mpg...then some ugly civic getting 40mpg.

Kudos to you for thinking outside the box on this one, and i hope you finish this!

ill say one thing, my fiance's car has this same motor...its pretty gutlass in her little vibe...im not sure how well it would pull a 3300ish pound car..then again, i dunno what her vibe weighs haha.

1ADan

iTrader: (4)

I'm pretty sure you're going to be one of the first on this swap, so there's going to be nothing for data before. All your mounts will need to be completely fabbed from scratch; motor or trans. Has anyone created a stand alone harness for that engine yet?

best of luck with the swap though. I've been waiting to see when someone would give it a go. The ecotecs are very potent and overbuilt from the factory, so even in stock form they should be putting out more than most of these cars came with to begin with (or at least the supercharged versions)

Fallen2603

89fbirdformula,
I'm currently in the planning stages. I've heard a lot of people "think" about this swap, but haven't seen anyone go through with it.

LOL! Oh, I am very, very, VERY "outside the box"!

I'm hoping that I can start off with one of the supercharged/turbocharged Ecotec motors. They have forged cranks and rods, just have to throw some forged pistons in, and are aluminum block and head.

I doubt, with this all-aluminum motor, that the Camaro will end up weighing 3300+ pounds, so...it should be a lot SNAPPIER.


1ADan,
I have heard that the mounts from the Pontiac Solstice and the Saturn Sky will work, even in an F-body, but I have no proof or confirmation. For the EMS harness, the best option I can think of at this time is a MegaSquirt "standalone" system of some kind.

These motors are AMAZING, from a mechanical standpoint. They have TONS of potential. And, hopefully, something along these lines will find it's way into the engine bay with the motor...
http://www.turbo-kits.com/cobalt_ss_turbo_kits.html
http://www.turbo-kits.com/solstice_gxp_upgrades.html
http://www.turbo-kits.com/solstice_turbo_kits.html

Sound like FUN yet?!

spade

iTrader: (3)

go for it! take LOTS OF PICS

Fallen2603

spade,
LOL! Don't worry, if I am able to do this swap...you will be OVERLOADED with pictures!

Werewolf SS

iTrader: (3)

Dude you should totatly drop a V8 in there cuz thats the only way to go! ...............................................lol.

I drive an SS / SC Cobalt so I can tell you about the engine. The LSJ (2.0L) motor with the attached Eaton Roots M62 Supercharger pumps out 205hp stock. With the Stage 2 kit (42lb injectors, smaller pulley, and computer tune) it bumps the power to 245.

The cobalt weighs 2900 empty so performance should be roughly equal between a Balt and a Third gen. So low 14's should be common with out performance mods. You'll have plenty of room to work in the engine bay as the LSJ is not very long as far as being in a F -Body.

You'll want to setup a Return fuel line and then up the pressure to keep the line up. Common problem with the balts is they are a returnless system at 53psi. The problem is the #4 cylinder can experience a drop in pressure as its the last one in the fuel rail. Most engine failures are the #4 cylinder for this reason.

Not many people have done Ecotech swaps in anything so its gonna be hard to get info. The Aerial Atom is rear mounted so it uses the same F35 Transmission so that won't help you but if you check the cobalt ss forums I belive thier was a fellow who was converting a Cobalt to RWD and I'm not sure if he was gonna use the ecotech or a different motor but if he used the same engien he would have had to make brackets work so that might be worth you while to check.

Hope the best for you those are good motors if you build them right.

spade

iTrader: (3)

im all for change man... if you can successfully do it.... that would be freaking awesome...

i would go the turbo route not the SC..

Fallen2603

Werewolf SS,
LOL! Where have I heard that before?

I, also, drive a Cobalt SS Supercharged. An '06 that I bought brand new, and that I have just recently paid off. She has done nothing but good things for me, and I have yet to hear anything bad about the Ecotec line of engines.

LOL! I doubt space inside the engine bay will be a concern...AT ALL. If I do as much of the weight-reduction to my Camaro, that I have thought about doing, I'd guesstimate the weight of the car to be <2800lbs. I won't leave the engine STOCK...

Currently, I'd like to start off with an LSJ longblock (provided it has bosses on the "sides" of the block to mount it to the Camaro's K-member properly). I'd rebuild the shortblock with forged .010"+ over forged pistons, while achieving a 9.0-9.5:1 CR. Then, mix and match parts from some of the turbocharger kits at turbo-kits.com.
I'd like to shoot for 400-500RWHP, on 92 octane, while retaining daily driver street manners. Don't know how attainable this is...

I had heard of the returnless fuel system being a problem for the #4 cylinder. I'll be sure to amend this issue with the rebuild.

Ugh...yeah, I've heard of very few Ecotec swaps. Fiero's, Cavalier's, the odd J-body, but not much else. I'll see if I can find that thread somewhere. Do you know if the LSJ has bosses on the "sides" of the block for somewhere to attach mounts/brackets?

Thanks for the luck. I have a feeling that I'll need it...LOL!

Spade,
I feel much the same way. I appreciate INGENUITY. Doing the same thing over and over again...to me, that's STAGNATION.

I agree that it would be ****ING AWESOME if I manage to pull it off.

The supercharger on the LSJ was not a bad idea, but...it has it's faults. The LSJ can be kind of twitchy on a daily-driven street car. Not prohibitively so, but, still, a lot twitchier than a turbocharged I4 motivated car. If I can pull this off, the turbocharger is the route I plan to go with.

spade

iTrader: (3)

go for the gold buddy... best of luck

Fallen2603

Spade,
Thanks for the morale support!

Werewolf SS

iTrader: (3)

Twitchy?
Depends on what pulley your running. Go get a nate pulley and you'll feel the weight difference between the stock pulley and his. His weights less than half a pound while the stock pulley weighs almost three or something. A Nate pulley spins up so much faster and will make the car consederably twitchy lol.

Swap to a TVS 2300 supercharger which was a huge things the Balt crowd was doing as the TVS is more efficent and makes more power with less boost. The only problem with the Turbo route is the LNF guys we're having issues with the engines holding up and the LSJ guys we're having problems with waste gate or something idk been awhile since I've been over there. I do know that ZZP had the twin charge kit (SC and TC together) that was pushing 490 hp and 450 tq on a stock LSJ block and it was holding up fine so might want to look into that avenue to. Thier kit was like 2 grand when it came out , including the tune, dyno, and install.

I'll look at my block tomorrow and see if thier are punched bores for a mount on the sides but chances are slim. more than likely you'll have to weld mounts to the block or drill your own (and hope you don't punch a water jacket or oil galley).

You could always build a front mount brace?
Design and build a frame that connects to the K member forward and runs to the LSJ at the front and connects to the engine that way. And one to the back. Should clear the exhaut and front surpentine belts if done right. You do have one problem if you stick with a S/C wheter M62 or TVS 2300. The supercharger is spun by the belts on the front but the inlet port would face the back of the car. Thus you'll have to run a custom intake to the front or cowl area (whatever hood your going with) and that means custom tuning the pcm as the settings for the MAF hateswhen the intake track is changed from stock and throws codes. (Use to be a tuner).

Anyways best of luck to you let us know how it comes along.

Fallen2603

To me, the throttle is twitchy for a daily-driver compared to turbocharged RX-7's and 240SX's. I'd rather turbocharge an inline-4 than supercharge it...

Well, I've been told by someone over at ecotecforum.com that all Ecotec block's, including the FWD models, have bosses on the "sides" of the block to mount longitudinally. He even said that I should just have to use the Solstice mounts/brackets and it should just drop right in.

Hmmm...I may have to take a gamble on this.

Fallen2603

Werewolf SS,
Okay, on further examination of the twin-charger kit, this is ABSOLUTELY an option if this swap happens.

spade

iTrader: (3)

thats what i would do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that just sounds like a hard on right there

Fallen2603

Spade,
LOL! Yeah, I'm thinking like a epic porno-star hard-on!

That's just me...

I'm just impressed with the awesome torque curve. Pretty much 300lb-ft+ from 2500RPM up. That's...small block V8 performance levels!

We'll see how things develop...

robertfrank

iTrader: (27)

You know I wouldn't mind something like this in an autocross/roadrace car for weight purposes. I personally would go the supercharger route for the instant torque production.

Fallen2603

robertfrank,
I, too, think this would make an excellent autocross/roadrace platform setup. I'm mainly interested in doing something DIFFERENT. However, I think this will make an AWESOME street/track car.

I agree about low-end torque production, but the twin-charge kit, I think, provides the best of both worlds.
http://www.zzperformance.com/miscftp/ZZP-vs-H-Dyno.jpg

Bright Red: Twin-Charged Horsepower
Red: Twin-Charged Torque
Bright Blue: Turbocharged Horsepower
Blue: Turbocharged Torque

With the twin-charge setup, the supercharger provides that low-end torque GRUNT until the turbocharger can take over at higher RPM more efficiently.

Like I said, best of both worlds...in my opinion.

lillee64

the saturn redline has more power than a 305 so you'd be ahead of some from the start

Fallen2603

Lillee64,
Yes, the LSJ engine that came in the 2005-2007 Saturn Ion RedLine and Cobalt SS Supercharged made 205HP and 200lb-ft, according to GM. Most dyno shops have proven these numbers to be underrated, as GM has done in the past. The wieght reduction benefits in going to an aluminum block and head 4-cylinder engine would also help put me ahead of the pack...

Dante93GTZ

iTrader: (5)

Not saying I approve of this swap in any way, shape, or form, but I mean, was this question even necessary? You have a K-member that can support a V8, why not an I4? As for the trans mount, obviously you'll have to fab something to work.

We just got done putting a 1995 Cummins 5.9 into a 1997 Suburban 2500 4x4; Its called fabbing motor mounts - Take the factory ones that came on the donor motor and adapt a mount between that and the K-member. Being that the 4 cyl is much more narrow than the V8, you should have no problems at all getting it to mount.

Not trying to be rude, but asking a bunch of V8 guys HOW TO questions about mounting an I4 into their RWD V6/V8 cars is kind of odd. No one will have the right answers.

For the time/hassle and most importantly "underwhelming" performance possibility, I'd just stick with an LS1 or equiv swap - Lighter, has WAY more power and has huge aftermarket support for add'l upgrades.

Take it or leave it.

Dante93GTZ

iTrader: (5)

My 2004 SRT4 )250hp/300ish tq) has more almost as much power as my boss's 5.9 Cummins (160hp/400tq) - But he can pull a 20,000lb trailer with ease; I doubt my SRT motor could do it even if we put it into his chassis... again, just my $.02.

lillee64

look at how much tq you have, thats where the pulling come in at

rspain85

Dante93, did you even bother to read what the OP posted in BOLD text? It's ppl like you that ignore the OP and give useless opinions instead of helpful information that makes forums frustrating. This is an awesome idea and I for one really hope you can complete it.

The Devastator

I have considered this for a daily driver. If you dig around google you can find a chevy bellhousing/flywheel kit that adapts the ecotech to any standard chevy trans, th350 th400 glide t5 t10 muncie etc.

I think if you could get a supercharged engine pretty cheap used and use this adaptor kit, all you would really have any serious difficulty with would be welding up the motor mounts and figuring out the wiring. Maybe the power steering. I think the power racks that most of these new cars have use less line pressure than the old saginaw steering box. Not sure tho.

The fuel injected cars have a return style system on them already so thats not a problem. Just get a good adjustable fuel pressure regulator and plumb that **** up! You'll probly need a walbro pump tho. I run mine at 50 psi on my big block but I don't how much pressure a stocker will handle.


http://quad4rods.com/index.php?page=...&Itemid=100041

http://www.kitcarmag.com/techarticle...ate/index.html

I've got a c4 corvette thats gonna be a DD and I am considering transplanting a supercharged ecotec engine.

toolegit86

i loved my 06 ss... i did all i could. fully build 2.0 tvs supercharger, all the bolt on possible easy 450whp car, fun to drive. to bad my wife traded it in on a nissan cube...

the eco tech is the best 4cly motor out there!! and the best to modd on, my stock bottom end was taking 18psi i dont see a problem with this swap, ur k member can take it, ive seen these up to a powerglide. the only problem that i had was snapping axle shafts. just on pavement with street tires.. and ive seen a few breaking bellhousings

as long as u run the postive displacement supercharger (eaton,tvs) u can keep ur comp aroung 10:1 i had no problems. u should look into the 2.4litre bottom end with the 2.0 head. and supercharger. that would be cool. i wanted to do it but already had the parts for the 2.0

Fallen2603

Dante93GTZ,
Ah, the first one. Whew...okay.

First of all, yes, I know that a 4-cylinder engine should have no problem fitting into an engine bay where there was a V8 originally. Don't think I'm an idiot.

Second, I was aware that I would probably have to custom fab my motor mounts, but I put the question out there to see if anyone had an idea of how it had been done using a combination of OEM parts from other applications.

Third, I posted this in the ENGINE SWAP tech board. No where in that title did I see V8. Yes, I know that most of the guys/ladies on TGO are into V8's in their Camaro's. But, still, this is the ENGINE SWAP board, not the V8 Engine Swap board.

Fourth, in no way is the LS1 lighter than the LSJ, or ANY of the Ecotec line of engines.

YOU CAN HAVE YOUR $0.02 BACK. I didn't ask for it, want it, or need it. Please, read a PO's DISCLAIMER next time.

Fallen2603

rspain85,
Yes, this is what makes forums FRUSTRATING.

I, too, believe this is an AWESOME idea and hope I can complete it.

THANKS FOR THE SUPPORT!

The Devastator,
I had already found the link to the Ecotec/T5 adapter from Quads-4-Rods, but thank you anyhow.

I have found COMPLETE LSJ engines at the junkyard for about $1,200. Some of the stuff I won't need, but I'll have just about everything.

Unfortunately, the LSJ was a returnless FI set-up. But there is a way to correct it. I'll definitely need a new fuel pressure regulator, and, quite possibly, a new fuel pump if I do the FULL-OUT build.

Well, if I find a way to do it, I'll be sure to give you the low-down if you ever do an Ecotec-swap Corvette.

toolegit86,
WOW...your wife is MEAN...LOL!

I agree that the Ecotec is the best inline-4-cylinder motor out there. I think with one of these hooked up to a TKO-600 hooked up to a Moser 12-bolt would make an AMAZINGLY BULLETPROOF combo. I doubt, with that setup, I'll have to worry about parts breaking.

I believe the LSJ stock compression ratio is 9.5:1, but I could be wrong. I'd probably leave the CR alone, even though I'll be replacing the pistons with forged pieces...and possibly the connecting rods with H-beams...MAYBE. Hmmm...does the 2.4L LE5 have the forged crank and connecting rods like the LSJ does? That's the only reason I've been pretty set on the LSJ, because it came stock with forged rods and crank...just not pistons...GO FIGURE.

I'd LOVE to swap the TVS Harrop supercharger on there, and then complete a twin-charged package with a Bullseye 256+ turbo. Easy 500RWHP...UMMM.

383 lt1 man

i love this idea i put a cobalt ss supercharger on my hhr with the 2.4 and im now making over 300hp to the wheels, and i still get over 30mpg. i would have love to turbo it instead but they dont make turbo kits for the car.

I dont believe the bottom end of the LE5 is forged but ive had my superchager on for over a year and i havent broke anything or had any problems

Werewolf SS

iTrader: (3)

The point behind a TC/SC setup is not about the highest number on the dyno its about the law of averages.

Heres an example of law of averages.

You have two cars. They are the same car well say a third gen Camaro.
They have the same rear end, same transmission, same everything except the engine.

Camaro 1 has a 383 stroker that make 280hp and 400tq at 2,000 rpms makes 420hp and 370tq at 6,000 rpms.

Camaro 2 has a 2JZE Turbo setup and makes 200hp at 2,000rpm and 200tq at 2,000 rpms. It makes 320 hp at 5,000 rpms and 390 tq at 5,000 rpms. At 6,000 it make 800hp and 670tq.

Which car is going to win in the 1/4 mile? Not the 2JZ. Even thou it makes 800hp and 670tq it won't beat the 420hp and 370 tq of the 383 stroker. Why?

Law of average. Let follow the dyno graph at 2k the stroker make 280hp. at 5k it makes 420. So between 3,000 rpms it increases 140hp so the average hp output at any time is 360hp roughly. As for tq the average at any time is 385tq.

The average for the second car at any time is 340hp and the tq is 340.

Yes the car makes 800hp but it only does it for 1,00rpms. How much is that really helping you? The car that has the higher average hp and tq is the one that will win per rule of thumb.

So by just putting a t/c on an engine yes it will make the 450 hp or so on the LSJ but it will only do it in the high rpm once the turbo has spooled in. You only have that 450 or so for a narrow band of the rpm. By adding a s/c and making a s/c t/c kit you elminate the bottom lack of power due to turbo lag. This does not increase the 450 top hp you we're going to get anyway with just the turbo but what it does is increase the hp and tq in the bottom rpm over what it was giving you a higher avg of hp and tq. Thus it runs faster over the single turbo only car.

Thats why the T/c S/c kit is awesome...for it's dyno curve not it's top power ..... what we would call a dyno queen.

Its all part of the old joke.

Whats the difference between an 800hp supra and 1200hp supra?
Nothing they both run 12's.

toolegit86

i am not sure on the 2.4. ive just seen a ton of people doing the build now.. my car was putting 350whp with just mls head gasket and arp studs.

Werewolf SS

iTrader: (3)

If I recall the lsj was the only block with forged rods. The pistons are weisco pistons (the same as the SRT-4) just not forged. I would keep the stock crank and rods and get forged pistons. Get some head work done alittle porting and then build from there. One issue is cams are kinda a hard thing to get for the car. Either you get the GSR cam or you have a company custom make one for you. Either way I have never heard a good story about a cam swap on an LSJ. Most of the problem is the cam sensor gets issues and tuning is a major pain when you swap out.

Fallen2603

383 lt1 man,
If you still wanted to turbo the LE5 in your HHR, I can't see why this wouldn't work:
http://www.turbo-kits.com/cobalt_turbo_kits.html

I really don't know anything about the HHR, but I believe they're based off of the same Delta chasis that the Cobalt is based off of. I'd guess it would fit, but I don't know for certain.

I'm **** when it comes to having forged components in high-performance engines. Not saying it's right, but just the way I am...

toolegit86,
You were doing 350WHP with just a swap to the TVS Supercharger? On pump gas? What compression ratio? And 18psi?

DAMN...

Werewolf SS,
Yes, the main reason I'm seriously considering the twin-charged setup is for the best of both worlds. More low-end grunt with the supercharger, and the help at the higher RPM bands with the turbocharger.

The current plan is to keep the stock rods and crank that come with the donor motor. Don't see much point in doing differently...

I wasn't planning on a cam swap. None of the stuff I've read on the turbo-kits and the twin-charge kit for this engine say anything about cam swaps. I do plan to polish and port the head, get bigger valves, and install stronger springs. I think I should be okay with that...

Do you agree? Or would you recommend a cam swap?

Fallen2603

383 lt1 man,
Sorry, my bad, those kits aren't even available anymore. I thought the price of $9,999.00 was kinda ridiculous when I looked at the ad again...LOL!

383 lt1 man

i did look into a bunch of turbo kits for the cobalt but there would have to be alot of more modification then the little bit i had to do to make it fit.

the hhr engine bay is alot smaller then the cobal it looks bigger but after messuring my gf's cobalt and my hhr there is a big enough diffrence so that it wouldnt fit.

Fallen2603

383 lt1 man,
DAMN...that sucks. Oh, well, 300WHP in an HHR ain't nothing to snicker at!

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

I love outside the box engine swaps, as I do Buick/Olds stuff (V8's) to mine. I had been looking into swapping in the older Quad 4 engine, but I am not sure if it is the same engine family as the newer ecotecs. If I recall, some are and some aren't. I think the 2.4L ecotec is descended from the older 2.3 Quad 4 whereas the 2.0 ecotec was from the older 2.2L 4cyl from the cavaliers.

Anyway, the reason I bring this up is that I had found the RWD trans adapters online for the Quad 4, and also motor mounts that allowed the Quad 4 to be mounted in an 82-93 S-10 pickup. Those engine mounts would get you dangerously close to putting the engine in a 3rd gen. I am NOT sure that the 2.0 engine would use the same mounts.

As for the trans, if I were you I would buy the SPOHN crossmember for the 2004R that has an independent torque arm mount and then just weld a flat plate to it and slot it with a plasma cutter to accomodate your Saturn SKY transmission mount.

Good luck!!

Fallen2603

KrisW,
Everything that I have read, I have not found ANY correlation between the Ecotec line of engines and the older Quad-4. As far as I know, all Ecotec's share the same block design. Cylinder heads, well, that's a different story. However, I could be wrong...

I have found Ecotec/T5 adapter bellhousings that would work well in this application. I know that I could use the Aisin 5-speed out of the Solstice/Sky, but I don't know how much abuse those things can take or who rebuilds them to take around 500HP/500lb-ft. I know T5/TKO's will take this kind of abuse.

Current plan, transmission-wise, is to get the Ecotec/T5 adapter bellhousing, bolt a TKO-600 up to it, and mount it in the car with the Spohn crossmember/torque-arm specially made for the TKO transmissions.

I have found someone who mounted a 2.2L Ecotec, out of a Cavalier, in his '83 Chevy S-10. I'm hoping that he can tell me what OEM brackets/mounts he used, or, if he had to make custom mounts/brackets, if he could make me up a set that would mount the Ecotec properly in the 3rd-Gen.

Thanks for the support and the luck man! I'll need it...

Dante93GTZ

iTrader: (5)

Hahaahahahehehehe... Touchy touchy... I think I'll preface all of my future threads with "I only want answers I like and I think I'll bold everything I think everyone else needs to know is important. LOL You're going to have an I4 Thirdgen that will perform every bit as good as a TPI 350, but with none of the excitement. Oh wait, please ignore the previous sentence; You probably disagree with it. This thread will be as cool as the guy swapping in a 6.2 Turbo Diesel.

Just to show you I'm not a total jerk (still up for debate), Here's a link:

www.mantapart.com

^^ You'll have to act FAST as they have recently (technically) closed.

Been in business FOREVER and they know an absolute wealth of knowledge on the GM I4 motors and have been known to dabble in RWDand have RWD product offerings.

Dante93GTZ

iTrader: (5)

Incorrect; the 2.3 Quad4 motors later became the 2.4 TwinCam motors. The Ecotec is a completely different breed; adapted from GM Europe (Opel) IIRC.

rspain85

I think dante is just mad because you will have a 4 cylinder third gen that's faster than his 305

Fallen2603

Dante93GTZ,
LOL! You know what, man? I'm gonna have to agree with rspain85. Jealousy does not become you...

Besides, I started this thread to see if anyone could answer questions that I had.

I'm all for debate, seriously. However, when the only thing the other, your, side says is, "V8 will always win!"...yeah, gets kind of boring.

Dante93GTZ, if you can't say anything nice or constructive, don't say anything at all. Didn't your mother every teach you that?

rspain85,
LMAO! Quote the mother-****ing truth! LOL!

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Smaller engines dont produce as much torque as the larger engines found in heavier cars. Do you think a stock/mild LSJ would be enough to tow a heavy 3rd gen around better than most of the stock 80's engines? Something to think on

For the swap inspiration and info, hang out on Fiero boards. They swap stuff constantly and are always fabbing mounts, interfacing wiring, adapting cool parts on for more power etc. Same process would be applied here, only the chassis is different. Im pretty sure i read a few Ecotec swaps in them too

For a stand alone, Im pretty sure there are a few available. The PCM has been cracked so it's up to you to read diagrams and build the harness accordingly. You can do it in the same fashion of the LT1 and LS1 harness builds in the swap forum, only the general shape and PCM pinouts will change naturally because its a different engine entirely. There would be a small aftermarket available for pre-build stand alone harnesses too because dunebuggy guys use them every so often and Ariel incorporated the engine into a production car for the Atom

Dante93GTZ

iTrader: (5)

Wait, now was it you that didn't read MY post in its entirety?

Fallen2603

Pocket,
I agree that smaller engines, such as 4-cylinders, don't produce as much as torque as larger engines, such as V8's. Now, I disagree with you on how heavy the 3rd-Gen is. They're really not that heavy by modern standards. Most numbers I've seen thrown around for curb weight are 3,100-3,300lbs...depending on engine, driveline, and luxury options. The stock Cobalt SS Supercharged weighs in at just under 3,000lbs. Also, by going to an all-aluminum 4-cylinder, you're going to lose a lot of that weight. I think this may be what a lot of the V8 crowd doesn't understand...

Besides, this isn't stock or mild:
http://www.zzperformance.com/cobalt_...=871&catid=188
http://www.zzperformance.com/miscftp/ZZP-vs-H-Dyno.jpg

On the second link, you want to look at the bold red line, which is horsepower, and the faint red line, which is torque. And that's not even half of that system's potential...

I have been in touch with a few Fiero guys, but the only problem is that they still mount the engine in a transverse orientation, not longitudinal. They have helped me out with a couple characteristics of the engine, however. Namely, that there are bosses on all Ecotec blocks, including FWD blocks, that, if they aren't already drilled and tapped, can be drilled and tapped for mounts/brackets.

My Camaro is entirely stripped right now. I even ripped out the whole wiring harness and am planning on putting in a Painless or Autowire universal 12-circuit wiring harness often used for older muscle cars. I'm not going to have any options on this car. Just basic go-fast...

I might be able to use the stock harness and just shorten some connections to make it look cleaner in the engine bay. If not, I can always get a MegaSquirt kit and build my own. We'll see...

Fallen2603

Dante93GTZ,
Thanks for the link, but I already discovered it, attempted to get in touch with them, and was ignored. Besides, in the opinion of myself and others who have been screwed by them, they are going out of business for a good reason.

So, yes, you're not a total jerk, but can we please try to stay on the topic of this thread instead of having the same old argument over and over and over and over and over...etc.

SilentBobZ28

iTrader: (5)

I've got a couple quick suggestions for you.

1. Go rent a Solstice for a weekend. Pop the hood on the thing and start measuring and taking pictures of everthing under hood and under the car.
This will give you a basis of how to start to position the ecotec in the engine bay of the Camaro.

2. Call John at Speartech. He worked for GM for 20+ years. If you pick up an ecotec setup for RWD, you can send him the engine wiring harness off of it and he can adapt it for the 3rd gen, unlock computer, shut off vats, and whatever else you need.

3. After you get your ecotec/t5/tko tranny setup, put the factory motor mounts on it, get a cherry picker and yank out your old setup. Start to lower the new one in, and once it is centered forward/back/left and right, build extensions or shorten your factory mounts as needed to stabilize the engine in the bay.

4. Now that you have the motor mounts burnt in and the tail of the transmission sitting on a jack stand, cut up your factory tranny x-member or fab a new x-member for it.

Drac0nic

Awesome idea for a swap. I wanted to do something like this to an S10. If you consider they should have similar weight to your Camaro, worse aerodynamics and they put a 2.2L I4 into them I don't think this will be too bad.

The reason I like the idea of going to a Camaro or an S10 instead of a FWD vehicle is that you can easily make the power train able to take the power and have maximum choice for gearing to maximize drivability. Boost should make quite a bit of difference in how it behaves. Quite honestly look at the DSMs and how much they weigh. People think that an import is "light" to be quick but that's not always the case.

With that out of the way, I'd keep the old transmission in the car and use it to position the engine to weld some mounts up. I had a set I'd done for putting a Buick Grand National engine in an Astro van but this should be along the same idea. Another thing I tried was using a stock engine with mounts on it to establish where the mounts were, welded up a framework that had holes where those were and then bolted it to the bellhousing of the GN (BOP and chevy use the same bottom two bolt holes and dowel pins) It is a little convoluted but at the same time it allowed me to get the right position. In this case I would probably figure out some way to align it off the crank pin. I realize they aren't the same but am throwing it out there as an idea. The last thing you may consider is figuring out how "deep" the bell is for the engine and getting an adapter machined especially if you want to use a manual. An auto would be a lot more difficult but maybe doable.

Fallen2603

SilentBobZ28,
Yep, I can't see anyway around custom fabbing this setup. However, I think if I were to use the Spohn TKO crossmember/torque-arm to locate the transmission, it might make fabbing up motor mounts a bit easier...or harder. Can't really say.

Drac0nic,
I know of someone who swapped a 2.2L Ecotec into his '83 S-10:
http://www.ecotecforum.com/forums/sh...-s10&highlight
Maybe that can help you out if you still want to do that S-10.

I'm mainly for the idea just because it's different...in a psychotic way...LOL! Many of those import cars weren't that light, no, but most of the good ones were lighter than most of the American cars being made. The others, usually had AWD or were just plain AMAZING (i.e. Toyota Supra).

Keep the "old transmission" in the car? So, you're suggesting stick with the T5? Not the TKO-600? I'm not worried about making the T5/TKO-600 work on the Ecotec. I've already found an adapter bellhousing. And, yes, I love stickshifts. On the...19th day, God created the stickshift...and the devil created the automatic...LOL!

Drac0nic

I was more meaning if you had an ecotec->SBC adapter I would be inclined to use that transmission to locate the engine to reduce changing the location of the engine 100 times. If you want to do a TKO (If you're doing a boosted engine and making the power you're talking about it probably wouldn't be the worse idea) I would take detailed measurements of how the crank lines up based on reference points of the engine/trans before you pulled the trans for good. JMO on it that way you don't end up with a crooked engine/trans install.