C_Sander

So i've finally got around to tearing down my 350, and I've got it down to the bare block, and i am now ready to start choosing parts.
I know I want to stroke it to 383, but I am having troubles choosing heads and a cam to match it. I want high performance with out sacrificing too much streetability. It will be my daily driver, but I would also like to take it to the track occasionally. Fuel economy isn't a problem; if I wanted to save money on gas, i would buy a Civic. Also, money isn't a huge issue, as this project will take place over the next year or two. I have mostly worked on small engines in the past, and this is the first chevy engine I've worked on. Should I go with forged or cast? 5.7" rods or 6"? Roller cam or flat? Flat top pistons or other? Also should I be upgrading my valve train? Or is the stock on sufficient for a stroker 383? Also, i would like to leave room for future upgrades. I plan on one day upgrading the stock TPI and intake manifold to a stealth ram or similar, so i would need to know what my options are.
I know that there is no perfect setup, but according to my requirements, what would suit me best?
I know there are alot of knowledgeable people on this board, so please give me your input, I appreciate it.

MotorMouth

These questions need to be answered first.
1. Are you going to use forced induction or Nitrous.
2. Manual or Automatic transmission
3. Do you have a visual or sniffer emissions inspection in your state.


Should I go with forged or cast? 5.7" rods or 6"? Roller cam or flat? Flat top pistons or other?

1. If this is mostly a street driven motor without forced induction or Nitrous cast will be fine.
2. Little difference in 5.7" and 6" rods. Using 6" rods the oil ring is up into the wrist pin.
3. Roller cam less friction, less wear and tear, more aggresive configuration and cost more. Flat tappet cam more friction, more wear and tear, less aggresive configuration and cost less.
4. Pistons: forced induction low compression dished. Nitrous forged flat tops. No power adders Hyper will be fine.

Also should I be upgrading my valve train? Or is the stock on sufficient for a stroker 383?
1. If you change the cam you will most likely have to change the Springs. Aftermarket performance cams will be to much for stock springs.
2. The Stock heads and valve train have no impact on the stroke of the bottom end. If you want the most out of the engine a complete valve train overhaul is called for. Better heads, bigger ports, bigger valves and better springs to move more air.

C_Sander

Thanks for the quick reply, I will be using a T56, so manual. I will not have forced induction or Nitrous, but I do have AireCare here in BC. (they have been talking about getting rid of it for a while, so im hoping I can ditch the emissions crap)
Thanks for the answers..my biggest problem is knowing what lift, duration, etc, and how to match the valves and springs to that cam.
Also, would you guys recommend aluminum heads for my application?
Is something like this suitable?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-60969/
Or is that overkill/(under?)kill?

MotorMouth

When you get the stroker kit make sure you get one that's neutral balanced Harmonic damper and external balanced flywheel for a T-56.

For the cam selection this is a good tool to download. http://www.compcams.com/camquest/

Aluminum heads are best and AFR heads are the best plus they make a set that is emissions legal. http://www.airflowresearch.com/index...429fe231d7866f

Atilla the Fun

Look at posts 1,3,4,6 & 7 of this thread: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...st-builds.html

C_Sander

Ok, so i'm starting to put the pieces together. Here is what i came up with.

Cylinder Heads:
Aluminum AFR
210cc intake
75cc compression chamber
sold as a pair, and they include valves, and springs.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AFR-1050/
cam shaft:
solid roller
should give me 2200 to 6200 rpm range
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-12-770-8/

please let me know if this looks like it should work. I do not want to overcam/undercam my engine. I would like to try and find a happy medium between preformance and streetability.
Thanks alot!!

Atilla the Fun

That's a gross mismatch.
1) you don't need a solid roller for 6200 rpm. (2) you don't need 210 cc intake ports for 6200 rpm.
If you go back to that thread and read post 8, you'll see that a 180 cc port is enough to feed a 525 hp 400 to 6500 rpm. that being the case, why would you want a 210 on a 6200-rpm 383? To lose low-rpm torque? Then why have the stroker?

C_Sander

like i said, i am a noob when it comes to putting together parts.
Building? No problem, but i have a hard time getting the number to work
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CC...ET&prefilter=1

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AFR-0919/

how about these?

Atilla the Fun

good heads, wrong cam. What HP number are you really wanting, and what RPM are you wanting it to arrive at?

MotorMouth

Do you have a newer 350 that came with a roller cam or the older block that had a non-roller cam in it?

Also to go with what C_Sander is asking what rear end gear are you going to be using?

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

This is my few cent's into this.

Do you have a 1 or 2 RMS block. I would stick with a cast crank for cost.
5.7 rods
Speed pro or K/B pistons
What type of gas are you going to run? The bigger camshaft you run the more compression you will need. If it's a street car w/ aluminum heads you can get away with 10-10.5:1. Actually you can get away with a little more than that but it's a tuning issue then.

I would go with a 195cc head. For a street car that will put you right where you need to be. IMO 180 is to small and 210 maybe to big.

As for a cam that depends on your rear gear, weight of the car, stall, compression and driving conditions. If it's not an all out car a hydraulic roller will be just fine. A flat tappet cam will be fine too just make sure you break it in right.

First you have to determine what your goals are for the car, how much power you want(realistically) or how fast you want it to be and how much money you have to spend.

IMO decide what you want to do with the car, decide how much you are going to spend on cylinder heads, then make your cam choice from the cylinder head manufacturer.

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

That can be a loaded question. Most people use to say 400rwhp and have no idea what that actually is.

Now people, in the LS community want 500rwhp and have no idea how much money it really costs to get there.

Asking those questions from someone who doesn't really understand is a hard thing to do. It's like a ***** saying he wants nawwws but has no freakin clue about it. Which I am not saying about the OP, just trying to make a point.

Atilla the Fun

How did you get to be a senior member? Did you even look at post 8 of my best Builds sticky thread? that's a 400 making 525 hp and pulling to 6500 rpm, with 180cc heads. How are 195s gonna give better streetability than 180s? all they'll do is give up low-rpm torque, and regain nothing until after 6000 rpm. Not a good trade.
IDK why so many of you guys are so eager to go with 195s on a 350, but you're just killing your average power in the rpm range you actually drive in.
If the OP wants 450 HP, then 5500 rpm is plenty. If the OP wants 7000 rpm, then 195 heads would be good, but streetability would vanish. I've tried it enough different ways to know.
the OP needs to decide what results are desired, then we can help with cam, compression and gearing. You can't pick gearing before deciding what results you desire, it just doesn't work.
the OP is looking at $1500 heads and a solid roller cam, so with the savings of a hyd. roller there will be enough funds left for a gear swap.

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

You basically repeated what I said. If the OP wanted to turn 7k it would be the cam that would have a bigger effect on the streetabilty not the 195 head.

C_Sander

Like i said earlier, money isn't so much an issue here, as the upgrades will be spread out. I just want to decide now what parts i'm going to use.
If a rear gear change is in order, I can do that. No problem.

Ok, now for goals.
After looking at Atilla's best builds, post number 6, I think at least 400hp would be a good place to shoot for. I'm not sure exactly what that entails, and "how much money it really costs to get there", but it looks like atilla made it with his 383 build, and with enough time and money, i should be able to make it too, right?
I also like the idea of low end torque. For a street car, there is no point in having my RPM range be in the 6000 range...

i am going to try and find out more about my engine as soon as i get a chance (one piece RMS, roller cam, or not) so i can answer those other questions.

sorry for my lack of knowledge in this area... you guys are helping a lot!!

Atilla the Fun

No, I might have typed what you meant, or were thinking, but you suggested 195s without even finding out first if they are matched to what the OP wants to end up with.

Atilla the Fun

an '89 2.8 / T5 should have a 3.08:1 axle. I suggest you try those 3.08 gears with the build in post 6 before thinking about other gearing. It would be great gearing for post 6 with either a TKO600 (with a 0.68:1 fifth) or with a built 700R-4.
If you try it and like it, if you go 700R-4, just add a conversion-style locker. If you like it with a TKO500, sell it before you break it, and get a 3.08:1-geared 12-bolt from Strange.
The 195s would truly suck with the build in post 6.

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

that part is true, everything else I had said.

Anyway we are getting away from the point of the thread.

C_Sander

I am planning on using a T56, as i have heard that is the best to use with a 350 if you want manual, which I do.
ok, so it seems i should stick with 180cc..what about cam? Atilla's build in post 6 says a COMP XR264HR10 cam, would you recommend that with my build? What kind of HP numbers and at what RPM could i excpect?
thanks!

Atilla the Fun

If you like the build in post 6 of that thread, then exactly copy every detail given.
Go to www.gmpartsdirect.com and search 12556463 for the heads, they're $ 544.13 each, then send them to Extrude-Hone.
They'll come out slightly cheaper than the AFRs.

LilJayV10

iTrader: (5)

Are these builds you have done personally or from a magazine?

Also these are flywheel horsepower right and not rear wheel?

C_Sander

I think the build looks good, but i dont like the idea of copying someone else's work exactly...anyway, do those heads come with the valves and springs? That is one of the reasons i liked the AFR ones.
So if i have chosen the wrong cam, is there one you can suggest?
i still didnt get an answer to these questions:
"Atilla's build in post 6 says a COMP XR264HR10 cam, would you recommend that with my build? What kind of HP numbers and at what RPM could i excpect?
thanks!"
If you think that cam would work well with the heads i have chosen, please let me know.

MotorMouth

I was asking because if he was not going to do a gear swap and wanted to keep the stock gears, for what ever reason that would be something to take into account.

Atilla the Fun

taking gearing into account is sensible when they can't be changed, but anyone who can drop $1500 on heads can change gears. ayone willing do drop $1500 on heads for the sake of performance is going to be willing to change gears if necessary. Maybe not until they try driving the new engine combo with the stock gears, but certainly if the stock gears prove all wrong.
BTW, sorry for questioning your status.

C_Sander

yes, that is correct, I am willing to do the gear change, probably down the road though, once i get the engine in. But i still need to know a suitible cam... how would something like this do?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-SK08-412-8/

Atilla the Fun

That'll make amazing low-end torque, and pull hard to 5500 rpm. Good mpg, good idle, clean emissions, very daily driveable.

Atilla the Fun

This was already asked and answered in the best builds thread. Most of magazine builds that I copied for my customers, and my dyno results were within about 2% of the magazine results. I use whichever numbers were better.
These are all flywheel numbers.

Atilla the Fun

Why not copy? That way your results are exactly known before you even start, and any issues are also known in advance.
Yes, these heads come with valves and springs, but both need to be changed for best results. Taking that into account, the shelf AFRs are the better money.

C_Sander

sounds good, i will be using that cam then. I will post my progress on this thread.

C_Sander

ok so a slight change of plans. I got in an accident with my TPI camaro, so i bought a new one which is carb'd. Rather than do a carb to tpi swap in the new camaro, i will build my 383 with a carb setup. I think the Edlebrock #26014 manifold will work for me (Preformer airGap), but i'm not too sure about the carb. I think i would be using the thunder series avs from edlebrock, but im not too sure..500cfm, 600 750?
any advice/input?
EGR and emissions stuff is not an issue.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Just keep the stock q-jet.

C_Sander

Wouldn't one get better preformance with an aftermarket carb?

ASE doc

First of all, I hear alot of talk about go fast, exotic parts but no mention of fundamentals such as machine work or oil pump. Smokey Yunick, the father of small block performance, said "a fool spends big bucks on chrome moly connecting rods and a forged crank then puts in a cheap oil pump and cries when his engine breaks". Melling makes the best wet sump oil pump there is. Its the only one I use. Melling P/N HV25. Start with a 2 bolt block because it has thicker webs and have it machined for splayed caps. Dont ever hold back on your build thinking you dont need this or that. We can never have enough power and we will always wish later that we had done it in the first place. Roller cams are always better than flat tappet. Roller tappets allow faster valve openning giving you more full open time between open and close. Its all about area under the curve. In other words, you get alot more power and still maintain drivability.

ASE doc

The Jeg's P/N for the Melling pump is 689-10555. The pick up is a bolt on and different choices are available for different oil pan depths. Also, dont believe the talk about TPI being limited in high RPM. Mine screams to 6,500 so quick I had to set my rev limit at 7,000. I got tired of hitting the rev limit on 2-3 upshifts. For maximum grunt be sure to go as high flow as possible. TPIS large tube runners are the best choice, pricey but worth it. I used an ACCEL super ram base and ported the crap out of it along with TFS G2 heads also fully ported. My cam is the TPIS ZZ-X. Its the biggest hyd. roller ive ever seen. My motor dynoed at 415hp at 5800 with the SLP cam I originally chose. The ZZ-X turned the car from fast to just plain scary. I havent dynoed it since the cam swap but my HP est is based on my experience as an engine performance specialist, comparing my cars acceleration to that of cars Ive worked on. The Chrylser SRT8 Hemi is rated at 435hp and its a quick car. My IROC would eat its lunch.

ASE doc

Not a bad choice of cyl head. The cam however, WOW! For one thing why would you want a mech. roller on the street. Youll spend more time adjusting valves than driving it. For those heads a hyd. roller around 220-240 dur @ 050. would be a good match. 180 cc ports are on the small side for high RPM power. 200cc better.

C_Sander

Did you read the other posts? First of all, I am using a carb now, not tpi, and second, this is a street car, so i am trying to gear it to low to mid range power not high rpm power, as it will be my daily driver. And thirdly, i did choose a hydrallic roller cam...this one right here: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-SK08-412-8/
Maybe you should read the full thread before bashing my build.
There has been some disagreements with my heads cc. You are the second person that has said 180cc is too small and i should go for 200, but like i said, i am trying to find a ballance.

I like what you said about the oil pump, and i think you are probably right. While i have the engine on the stand, i should think about upgrading stuff like that as well, because i probably will regret it if i dont.

ASE doc

Sorry for coming accross that way. I did not mean any disrespect and I should have read further. To answer your carb question. What year is the car and is the motor stock. The reason I ask is Computer Command Control. GM' feedback carb system. If thats what youve got you will need an aftermarket carb. For one thing the CCC carb was 400cfm and will not work well on a 383. Nor will it support 400hp. Holley makes a very good Qjet reproduction in various sizes. Qjet is a good carb choice. Tuning is easy and they make good power while maintaining drivability.

C_Sander

No hard feelings, it's all good.
Do u mean my car or my engine? My car(the carbd one) is a 1991 305 but the engine I am building and planning on dropping in is a 350tpi from an 89, which will obviously be a carburated 383 after the rebuild. If I am going to get more preformance with an aftermarket manifold and carb then I'll do it, like I said, I'm not looking to save money. I just need to know if the stock carb\manifold is enough to feed a 383, and if not what would be reccomended.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Do you have a q-jet now or not? There was no carb available in '91, so if your '91 currently has a carb on it, it was put on there after it was delivered from the factory.

So, details are needed. What carb do you have? What intake do you have? What distributor do you have?

I thought you had linked a Performer spreadbore intake, but I can't seem to find that now.

EDIT - Ah, you didn't link it, you posted the p/n 26014 - which is only good to 5500 RPMs.

C_Sander

i will find out and get back to you about the carb, but come to think of it, it does look like it was put in after.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Speaking of AirCare, a carb isn't legal in a '91 chassis.

If they check for those things. If all they do is sniff, or look for a cat and sniff, you may be okay. But, I doubt it. A computer carb would probably get it done.

I have to say that even though I can't always take the time to carefully read every post, this thread has had me confused. Your user info says you have an '89 V6, you were talking about a stock q-jet, I assumed you were talking about a car other than the '89 that had a computer q-jet (that I didn't see you were in Canada was my bad), I did see you were thinking of a Performer intake, so I made some bad assumptions.

Clear, complete information is VERY important for getting useful advice back to you. Otherwise, it's garbage in/garbage out.

C_Sander

Ok, sorry about that, i have updated my info now.
My 91 camaro does have a carburator and it did pass AirCare.
Our emissons testing is only sniffing, and checking for a cat. They don't do any under hood inspection, so it is not a concern.
And yes, i am talking about a preformance intake and carb.

And I know this thread is confusing. I have a 305 in my car right now, but this thread is for parts for a 350/383 that is in my garage right now that
will one day replace the 305.

So what I need to know is what carb and intake manifold would work for:
383 stroker
heads: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AFR-0919/
cam: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CC...12-8/?rtype=10

i was thinking:
Intake manifold: Edlebrock #26014
Carb: Edlebrock thunder series avs 650cfm(?)
let me know what you think.

thanks for the help guys

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Okay, that helps. A couple of things:

So go with a Holley double pumper. You will need to do some fine tuning to pass emissions, so consider either a wideband O2 air/fuel meter, or dyno tuning.

And, for better top end, the Edelbrock 7101 Performer RPM intake. If you want to maintain the possibility of a spreadbore, then the 7104. But, go with the RPM type intake. You won't sacrifice low end torque noticeably from a Performer, and you won't lose the top end like you would with a Performer.

ASE doc

Good morning five7kid. I read your message to me last night and was confused as to what part of my post to CSander wasnt true. Forgive me, I dont mean any disrespect. I am old and opinionated. I am also an ASE Master tech L1 advanced engine performance specialist who spent the early 90s with GM. If you have questions about Computer Command Control, google it. BTW HGOlley double pumper is a good call. I still like Holley's Q-jet better. Have a good day.

C_Sander

thanks fiveseven,
so you think i would be better off with a manifold rated for 1500-6500 than idle-5500, and that i wont loose too much on the low end?
I was debating going for a double pumper from holley as well, but wasn't sure, so thanks for that.
thanks guys

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

As you may have noticed, the OP and I replied at about the same time. What he said pretty much negated my response, so I deleted it.

Holley doesn't make a q-jet. They make some spread bore carbs, and rebuild factory q-jets, but they don't "make" a "quadrajet". They also don't have any carb compatible with the CCC system. You can fool the system by adding a TPS to a Holley and keep the CCC ignition system functioning, but that's as close as you can come. You won't have computer mixture control.

Factory CCC q-jets are capable of 750 CFM. Some of the LG4 q-jets had the AV opening limited, but that can be modified easily enough to provide full flow capability (check out the tech article).

With a proper cam and intake, a CCC q-jet can handle a 383. I haven't seen anyone who has dyno'd such a combo, but many have kept the CCC q-jet on healthy 350's and 383's.

The Holley spread bore carbs are fine if you don't have a factory CCC q-jet, but don't have any advantages over a factory CCC q-jet system.

Of course, all of this is now moot, because we now know the OP doesn't have a CCC q-jet.

C_Sander

Ok, so:
-AFR 180cc heads
-CompCam 412-8 hydrallic roller 212/270
-Edelbrock 7101 Performer RPM intake manifold
-Holley spreadbore carb.
....How many cfm?

And what kind of HP/torque curve can I expect from this setup?

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Are you sure about those numbers? Perhaps 212/218 @ .050", 264/270 adv.?
The Holley spreadbore double pumper is only available in 650 CFM, and with divorced choke. It's not what I would recommend.

I would recommend a 4779 squarebore 750 CFM double pumper for best power, 4777 squarebore 650 CFM double pumper for (slightly) better driveability and (slightly) better economy. You can put an electric choke kit on either.
Probably somewhere around 400+ peak at around 5500/450 around 4000-4500 (not too sure about where or what the torque peak would be).

C_Sander

ok so ill go with the 750cfm carb
so you would reccomend something like this cam?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-08-412-8/

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I was trying to figure out which cam you were thinking about. I think that cam would be fine, but I'm not the resident cam expert.