Idiot lights
10-18-2019, 10:58 PM
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Idiot lights
Hello all!
I have an 85 Bird V6 with the speedo and huge fuel gauge. Everything else is what I call Idiot Lights.
So my question is...how many lights should come on as a “bulb check” when starting?? Right now, I only have the little red battery, and the word “brake” when parking brake is engaged.
It’s been a looonnng time since she’s been alive. See my other posts! And, shamefully, this is one of the details I seem to have forgotten. But I could’ve SWORN that the battery, check engine, and seat belt light would come on for a couple of seconds.
I have an 85 Bird V6 with the speedo and huge fuel gauge. Everything else is what I call Idiot Lights.
So my question is...how many lights should come on as a “bulb check” when starting?? Right now, I only have the little red battery, and the word “brake” when parking brake is engaged.
It’s been a looonnng time since she’s been alive. See my other posts! And, shamefully, this is one of the details I seem to have forgotten. But I could’ve SWORN that the battery, check engine, and seat belt light would come on for a couple of seconds.
10-20-2019, 02:26 AM
#2
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Re: Idiot lights
Key on, engine off - Fasten Seat Belts, Oil Pressure, Battery (and Brake if parking brake is applied) lights should be on.
10-20-2019, 10:27 AM
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Re: Idiot lights
Battery light should come on, as no charging is happening.
Oil pressure should come on, as no oil is being pumped.
CEL should come on, as there are no reference pulses.
None of these are really a "bulb check"; they're just the natural behavior of the things that turn them on.
When the key is turned to Start, the temp light should come on. That one IS a "bulb check": there's a pair of contacts on the ign sw specifically to ground the temp light (or gauge) wire, to create this function.
Oil pressure should come on, as no oil is being pumped.
CEL should come on, as there are no reference pulses.
None of these are really a "bulb check"; they're just the natural behavior of the things that turn them on.
When the key is turned to Start, the temp light should come on. That one IS a "bulb check": there's a pair of contacts on the ign sw specifically to ground the temp light (or gauge) wire, to create this function.
10-20-2019, 12:41 PM
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Re: Idiot lights
Battery light should come on, as no charging is happening.
Oil pressure should come on, as no oil is being pumped.
CEL should come on, as there are no reference pulses.
None of these are really a "bulb check"; they're just the natural behavior of the things that turn them on.
When the key is turned to Start, the temp light should come on. That one IS a "bulb check": there's a pair of contacts on the ign sw specifically to ground the temp light (or gauge) wire, to create this function.
Oil pressure should come on, as no oil is being pumped.
CEL should come on, as there are no reference pulses.
None of these are really a "bulb check"; they're just the natural behavior of the things that turn them on.
When the key is turned to Start, the temp light should come on. That one IS a "bulb check": there's a pair of contacts on the ign sw specifically to ground the temp light (or gauge) wire, to create this function.
From here, I’m going to assume that since the battery and brake light work, that it’s not a fuse situation going on, but most likely a series of blown bulbs?
Ive read on here that I’ll need to pull the cluster to replace them, and that they take 194 bulbs, right?
Are the turn indicators also 194s?...Neither one are lighting up in the dash, although most signals are working on the car except both in front fenders. I figure while I’m in there, I might as well replace all the bulbs and be done with it.
10-20-2019, 01:55 PM
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10-20-2019, 02:01 PM
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Re: Idiot lights
Right; most likely, just burnt-out bulbs. At least, that's where I would start.
I like to consult my signature for understanding of such things.
Yes, AFAIK all the bulbs in your dash are 194... indicators, illumination, etc. For that matter, so are the side marker lamps. A very handy part # to keep around. And yes, AFAIK you have to pull the cluster to change them, but that's not really very hard or anything.
I like to consult my signature for understanding of such things.
Yes, AFAIK all the bulbs in your dash are 194... indicators, illumination, etc. For that matter, so are the side marker lamps. A very handy part # to keep around. And yes, AFAIK you have to pull the cluster to change them, but that's not really very hard or anything.
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10-20-2019, 03:44 PM
#8
Re: Idiot lights
Hi ow85 ,I know it may seem daunting at first , but once you get past the fact that it's just a series of a bunch of small steps , you'll find that this is something you can do . There will be lots of little screws holding the plastic dash trim pieces on and my best suggestion for those would be to get some paper cups or other small containers that can hold the screws from each trim piece as it comes off . On my car (1989) the speedometer is electronic and thus has no mechanical drive cable that would need to be disconnected from behind the speedometer to allow the gauge cluster to come out , I'm not sure (but do suspect) that your 1985 has the cable . If it does this is no biggie , there is a release procedure you'll need to find out about , I think it's just pushing a release clip but again I'd search that and become familiar with it before you begin . So anyway , on my 1989 , this it what it takes to get me into the dash ;
Step 1 , disconnect the battery's negative terminal .
And now the journey starts , believe it or not , on the passenger side , the plastic trim just under the map pocket on the dashboard has to come off because the big trim that surrounds the gauges has one screw under that piece .
Now the lower trim / plastic panel piece(s) on the drivers side get taken out giving access to the steering column mounting brackets . The nuts need to be loosened to the last threads on the studs , allowing the column to drop the couple of inches required to have the room to pull the gauge unit (have the tilt column tilted all the way down) .
Next up is removing the big plastic piece surrounding the gauges . A bunch of screws and a plug to disconnect for the trunk release button will have that out of the way . Once that piece it out you'll be looking at the gauge cluster itself . In my case all I need to do at that point is to remove the 6 screws holding it in the dash and pull it out (it's electrical connections are a push fit that come apart as the unit is removed) . If you do have the cable (mechanical) operated speedo now is when you'll need to release the cable to free the gauge cluster from the dash .
Once you have the gauge unit out the black and grey bulb sockets themselves will give a half twist to the left (counterclockwise) and pull out . Pull out the old bulbs straight out of the little sockets , push in a bunch of Sofa's #194 bulbs , and then reinstall the gauge cluster , hook up the battery , and make sure they all work before you reassemble everything else . If you use regular Incandescent light bulbs polarity doesn't matter , but LED bulbs will not light if put in "backwards" ( plus and minus of LED not corresponding to plus and minus of the car's lighting circuit) so I'd recommend you stick with the regular factory type incandescent bulbs so as to not need to worry about figuring out which side of the foil is + or - on the gauge cluster .
PS , in my case (no mechanical cable to release) I don't need to remove the upper dash panel (the big one that covers the whole top of the dash) to do this . Now , I don't know how the mechanical speedo's cable release is accessed , hopefully you are able to reach up from under the dash to release it rather than to have to reach down from the top . If per chance you DO have to reach down from the top , well , it'll just be adding one more piece to the puzzle . Also , when buying the bulbs , I'd spring for the 194LL bulbs , slightly more money but the LL designation stands for "Long Life" , they have a more robust filament than a regular (non LL) bulb . This will hopefully keep you from having to replace them again anytime soon .
Here are a couple of pictures of a 1989 cluster , showing the black and grey bulb sockets .
Last edited by OrangeBird; 10-20-2019 at 06:01 PM.
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WildCard600 (10-20-2019)
10-20-2019, 06:51 PM
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Re: Idiot lights
Hi ow85 ,I know it may seem daunting at first , but once you get past the fact that it's just a series of a bunch of small steps , you'll find that this is something you can do . There will be lots of little screws holding the plastic dash trim pieces on and my best suggestion for those would be to get some paper cups or other small containers that can hold the screws from each trim piece as it comes off . On my car (1989) the speedometer is electronic and thus has no mechanical drive cable that would need to be disconnected from behind the speedometer to allow the gauge cluster to come out , I'm not sure (but do suspect) that your 1985 has the cable . If it does this is no biggie , there is a release procedure you'll need to find out about , I think it's just pushing a release clip but again I'd search that and become familiar with it before you begin . So anyway , on my 1989 , this it what it takes to get me into the dash ;
Step 1 , disconnect the battery's negative terminal .
And now the journey starts , believe it or not , on the passenger side , the plastic trim just under the map pocket on the dashboard has to come off because the big trim that surrounds the gauges has one screw under that piece .
Now the lower trim / plastic panel piece(s) on the drivers side get taken out giving access to the steering column mounting brackets . The nuts need to be loosened to the last threads on the studs , allowing the column to drop the couple of inches required to have the room to pull the gauge unit (have the tilt column tilted all the way down) .
Next up is removing the big plastic piece surrounding the gauges . A bunch of screws and a plug to disconnect for the trunk release button will have that out of the way . Once that piece it out you'll be looking at the gauge cluster itself . In my case all I need to do at that point is to remove the 6 screws holding it in the dash and pull it out (it's electrical connections are a push fit that come apart as the unit is removed) . If you do have the cable (mechanical) operated speedo now is when you'll need to release the cable to free the gauge cluster from the dash .
Once you have the gauge unit out the black and grey bulb sockets themselves will give a half twist to the left (counterclockwise) and pull out . Pull out the old bulbs straight out of the little sockets , push in a bunch of Sofa's #194 bulbs , and then reinstall the gauge cluster , hook up the battery , and make sure they all work before you reassemble everything else . If you use regular Incandescent light bulbs polarity doesn't matter , but LED bulbs will not light if put in "backwards" ( plus and minus of LED not corresponding to plus and minus of the car's lighting circuit) so I'd recommend you stick with the regular factory type incandescent bulbs so as to not need to worry about figuring out which side of the foil is + or - on the gauge cluster .
PS , in my case (no mechanical cable to release) I don't need to remove the upper dash panel (the big one that covers the whole top of the dash) to do this . Now , I don't know how the mechanical speedo's cable release is accessed , hopefully you are able to reach up from under the dash to release it rather than to have to reach down from the top . If per chance you DO have to reach down from the top , well , it'll just be adding one more piece to the puzzle . Also , when buying the bulbs , I'd spring for the 194LL bulbs , slightly more money but the LL designation stands for "Long Life" , they have a more robust filament than a regular (non LL) bulb . This will hopefully keep you from having to replace them again anytime soon .
Here are a couple of pictures of a 1989 cluster , showing the black and grey bulb sockets .
Now the only intimidating part for me will be dealing with the battery. I’ll deal with a snake or spider or mouse any day, but car batteries scare me! But...since Old is at the shop, I’ll let one of the mechanics touch it!! Lol
Definately going to get the LL bulbs, yes!
And I use ziploc baggies with a post it note to keep track of Old’s bits and pieces! Saves me from a lot of DUH moments later on!
On a side note...if Old’s CEL is on and I can flash a code, does that mean a sensor is BAD, or does that mean the sensor is picking up a reading that she deems is WRONG?
10-20-2019, 07:04 PM
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Re: Idiot lights
Hi ow85 ,I know it may seem daunting at first , but once you get past the fact that it's just a series of a bunch of small steps , you'll find that this is something you can do . There will be lots of little screws holding the plastic dash trim pieces on and my best suggestion for those would be to get some paper cups or other small containers that can hold the screws from each trim piece as it comes off . On my car (1989) the speedometer is electronic and thus has no mechanical drive cable that would need to be disconnected from behind the speedometer to allow the gauge cluster to come out , I'm not sure (but do suspect) that your 1985 has the cable . If it does this is no biggie , there is a release procedure you'll need to find out about , I think it's just pushing a release clip but again I'd search that and become familiar with it before you begin . So anyway , on my 1989 , this it what it takes to get me into the dash ;
Step 1 , disconnect the battery's negative terminal .
And now the journey starts , believe it or not , on the passenger side , the plastic trim just under the map pocket on the dashboard has to come off because the big trim that surrounds the gauges has one screw under that piece .
Now the lower trim / plastic panel piece(s) on the drivers side get taken out giving access to the steering column mounting brackets . The nuts need to be loosened to the last threads on the studs , allowing the column to drop the couple of inches required to have the room to pull the gauge unit (have the tilt column tilted all the way down) .
Next up is removing the big plastic piece surrounding the gauges . A bunch of screws and a plug to disconnect for the trunk release button will have that out of the way . Once that piece it out you'll be looking at the gauge cluster itself . In my case all I need to do at that point is to remove the 6 screws holding it in the dash and pull it out (it's electrical connections are a push fit that come apart as the unit is removed) . If you do have the cable (mechanical) operated speedo now is when you'll need to release the cable to free the gauge cluster from the dash .
Once you have the gauge unit out the black and grey bulb sockets themselves will give a half twist to the left (counterclockwise) and pull out . Pull out the old bulbs straight out of the little sockets , push in a bunch of Sofa's #194 bulbs , and then reinstall the gauge cluster , hook up the battery , and make sure they all work before you reassemble everything else . If you use regular Incandescent light bulbs polarity doesn't matter , but LED bulbs will not light if put in "backwards" ( plus and minus of LED not corresponding to plus and minus of the car's lighting circuit) so I'd recommend you stick with the regular factory type incandescent bulbs so as to not need to worry about figuring out which side of the foil is + or - on the gauge cluster .
PS , in my case (no mechanical cable to release) I don't need to remove the upper dash panel (the big one that covers the whole top of the dash) to do this . Now , I don't know how the mechanical speedo's cable release is accessed , hopefully you are able to reach up from under the dash to release it rather than to have to reach down from the top . If per chance you DO have to reach down from the top , well , it'll just be adding one more piece to the puzzle . Also , when buying the bulbs , I'd spring for the 194LL bulbs , slightly more money but the LL designation stands for "Long Life" , they have a more robust filament than a regular (non LL) bulb . This will hopefully keep you from having to replace them again anytime soon .
Here are a couple of pictures of a 1989 cluster , showing the black and grey bulb sockets .
I went to OReillys to pick up the bulbs. The guy asked me what I needed them for, and I said for the dash lights for an 85 Firebird.
He rolled his eyes and said, “You just need to get rid of that car.”
Pardon me?!
So I said, “First of all, don’t say that to me. You don’t know me or my car. Secondly, it’s cars like mine that keep people like you in business.”
From now on I’ll be taking my needs elsewhere. This butthole just about got to experience The Wrath of Kim!!
Theres my story of the day!! Lol
10-20-2019, 07:08 PM
#11
Re: Idiot lights
Orange and Sofa, you’re awesome!
Now the only intimidating part for me will be dealing with the battery. I’ll deal with a snake or spider or mouse any day, but car batteries scare me! But...since Old is at the shop, I’ll let one of the mechanics touch it!! Lol
Definately going to get the LL bulbs, yes!
And I use ziploc baggies with a post it note to keep track of Old’s bits and pieces! Saves me from a lot of DUH moments later on!
On a side note...if Old’s CEL is on and I can flash a code, does that mean a sensor is BAD, or does that mean the sensor is picking up a reading that she deems is WRONG?
Now the only intimidating part for me will be dealing with the battery. I’ll deal with a snake or spider or mouse any day, but car batteries scare me! But...since Old is at the shop, I’ll let one of the mechanics touch it!! Lol
Definately going to get the LL bulbs, yes!
And I use ziploc baggies with a post it note to keep track of Old’s bits and pieces! Saves me from a lot of DUH moments later on!
On a side note...if Old’s CEL is on and I can flash a code, does that mean a sensor is BAD, or does that mean the sensor is picking up a reading that she deems is WRONG?
Very very smart question !!!! SO many other people never get this and I'm super happy that you do ! Yes indeed a code can mean one of two things , that the particular sensor called out in the code has gone bad , or that the sensor is functioning properly and is reporting conditions due to a failure in some other part that are beyond what the ECM accepts as normal . For instance , IS that "bad O2 sensor" code actually because the O2 sensor has malfunctioned , or , perhaps , is the engine running way too lean due to a large vacuum leak , that sort of thing . Remember , when you do the paperclip trick and read the codes it'll always start with code 12 , and then report any other stored codes , so code 12 in itself isn't a fault (unless the engine won't run , which is a different situation since we know yours does in fact run) .
PS , if you only disconnect the battery's negative , and NEVER let the wrench touch the positive when your loosening the negative terminal , you'll never have sparks & smoke
10-20-2019, 08:43 PM
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Re: Idiot lights
One more thing, Orange...
I went to OReillys to pick up the bulbs. The guy asked me what I needed them for, and I said for the dash lights for an 85 Firebird.
He rolled his eyes and said, “You just need to get rid of that car.”
Pardon me?!
So I said, “First of all, don’t say that to me. You don’t know me or my car. Secondly, it’s cars like mine that keep people like you in business.”
From now on I’ll be taking my needs elsewhere. This butthole just about got to experience The Wrath of Kim!!
Theres my story of the day!! Lol
I went to OReillys to pick up the bulbs. The guy asked me what I needed them for, and I said for the dash lights for an 85 Firebird.
He rolled his eyes and said, “You just need to get rid of that car.”
Pardon me?!
So I said, “First of all, don’t say that to me. You don’t know me or my car. Secondly, it’s cars like mine that keep people like you in business.”
From now on I’ll be taking my needs elsewhere. This butthole just about got to experience The Wrath of Kim!!
Theres my story of the day!! Lol
What a clown. Guess I'm blessed with cool parts counter guys around here. Every time they find out what I'm working on we get into a 5-10 minute conversation about muscle cars, engines and what not.
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WildCard600 (10-20-2019)
10-21-2019, 05:37 PM
#14
Re: Idiot lights
One more thing, Orange...
I went to OReillys to pick up the bulbs. The guy asked me what I needed them for, and I said for the dash lights for an 85 Firebird.
He rolled his eyes and said, “You just need to get rid of that car.”
Pardon me?!
So I said, “First of all, don’t say that to me. You don’t know me or my car. Secondly, it’s cars like mine that keep people like you in business.”
From now on I’ll be taking my needs elsewhere. This butthole just about got to experience The Wrath of Kim!!
Theres my story of the day!! Lol
I went to OReillys to pick up the bulbs. The guy asked me what I needed them for, and I said for the dash lights for an 85 Firebird.
He rolled his eyes and said, “You just need to get rid of that car.”
Pardon me?!
So I said, “First of all, don’t say that to me. You don’t know me or my car. Secondly, it’s cars like mine that keep people like you in business.”
From now on I’ll be taking my needs elsewhere. This butthole just about got to experience The Wrath of Kim!!
Theres my story of the day!! Lol
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WildCard600 (10-21-2019)
10-22-2019, 10:34 PM
#15
Re: Idiot lights
If you love your car, ignore stupid comments. Especially from some nimrod at a generic auto parts store. The autozone near me is filled with dumb people. This past summer I went in prepared to spend some serious money. 5 guys standing around joking, about 10 people waiting on line or for questions. A few of us, myself included said out loud, F THIS dropped our stuff and walked out. I left them a very nasty review online as well.
10-23-2019, 12:40 PM
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Re: Idiot lights
you won't ever buy any of those bulbs again at a local parts store after you see the prices for them through places like rock auto. quite a while ago I just added two dozen of each type my cars use to my shopping cart @ around 35-50 cents each. still have plenty in that storage drawer in the garage.
10-23-2019, 08:32 PM
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Re: Idiot lights
Right; most likely, just burnt-out bulbs. At least, that's where I would start.
I like to consult my signature for understanding of such things.
Yes, AFAIK all the bulbs in your dash are 194... indicators, illumination, etc. For that matter, so are the side marker lamps. A very handy part # to keep around. And yes, AFAIK you have to pull the cluster to change them, but that's not really very hard or anything.
I like to consult my signature for understanding of such things.
Yes, AFAIK all the bulbs in your dash are 194... indicators, illumination, etc. For that matter, so are the side marker lamps. A very handy part # to keep around. And yes, AFAIK you have to pull the cluster to change them, but that's not really very hard or anything.
EPIC FAIL (mostly)!!
So I did get the CEL to light up, now the brake and battery light won’t work, which they did before.
I rechecked all the bulbs and even cleaned the contacts where they plug into the car (the 2 big plugs).
I tried several times to gently wiggle the panel, thinking maybe the plugs weren’t making good contact. Each time I tried, different lights would work or not work, the only one working consistently is the CEL.
Not sure what else to try.
Do you know how hard it is to admit I’ve failed at changing light bulbs?!!!
10-23-2019, 08:49 PM
#18
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Re: Idiot lights
Pulled the cluster today and changed out the bulbs.
EPIC FAIL (mostly)!!
So I did get the CEL to light up, now the brake and battery light won’t work, which they did before.
I rechecked all the bulbs and even cleaned the contacts where they plug into the car (the 2 big plugs).
I tried several times to gently wiggle the panel, thinking maybe the plugs weren’t making good contact. Each time I tried, different lights would work or not work, the only one working consistently is the CEL.
Not sure what else to try.
Do you know how hard it is to admit I’ve failed at changing light bulbs?!!!
EPIC FAIL (mostly)!!
So I did get the CEL to light up, now the brake and battery light won’t work, which they did before.
I rechecked all the bulbs and even cleaned the contacts where they plug into the car (the 2 big plugs).
I tried several times to gently wiggle the panel, thinking maybe the plugs weren’t making good contact. Each time I tried, different lights would work or not work, the only one working consistently is the CEL.
Not sure what else to try.
Do you know how hard it is to admit I’ve failed at changing light bulbs?!!!
I'm still trying after 13 months to remove the intake manifold off my '98 Lexus LS400. I need to get to the starter and the geniuses at Toyota decided to put the starter underneath the manifold between the cylinders. I have everything out of the way but I can't lift the manifold far enough to clear the studs. something is caught back there but I have no idea what it is...CSS back against the firewall.
I've even gone over to talk with dealer techs and all I get is a shrug. It's probably something obvious and stupid (my brain).
10-23-2019, 09:03 PM
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Re: Idiot lights
Obviously there a connection issue someplace. Hard to diagnose without seeing what you're working with. It's ok to admit failure.
I'm still trying after 13 months to remove the intake manifold off my '98 Lexus LS400. I need to get to the starter and the geniuses at Toyota decided to put the starter underneath the manifold between the cylinders. I have everything out of the way but I can't lift the manifold far enough to clear the studs. something is caught back there but I have no idea what it is...CSS back against the firewall.
I've even gone over to talk with dealer techs and all I get is a shrug. It's probably something obvious and stupid (my brain).
I'm still trying after 13 months to remove the intake manifold off my '98 Lexus LS400. I need to get to the starter and the geniuses at Toyota decided to put the starter underneath the manifold between the cylinders. I have everything out of the way but I can't lift the manifold far enough to clear the studs. something is caught back there but I have no idea what it is...CSS back against the firewall.
I've even gone over to talk with dealer techs and all I get is a shrug. It's probably something obvious and stupid (my brain).
If you were in Alabama, I know a few Toyota specialists. I’d be glad to share if you’re interested in calling them.
I’ll try to send pics tomorrow of Old’s cluster.
When you push the cluster forward to engage the plugs, can you “feel” the plugs going in? There’s absolutely no resistance at all. In fact, there’s very slight wiggle room. Seems like it’d be hard to make good contact with that amount of slack.
10-24-2019, 06:44 AM
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Re: Idiot lights
in my experience most of the issues will be in the contacts between the innards of the green sockets and the new lamps, some spray contact cleaner can help.
It is also helpful to clean all of the contact point between the board and the lamps and the board and the dash pocket. a good pencil eraser works well.
last I re-lamped one, I ran 12 volt to it while on the bench as I individually replaced lamps until all were lit reasonably consistently
It is also helpful to clean all of the contact point between the board and the lamps and the board and the dash pocket. a good pencil eraser works well.
last I re-lamped one, I ran 12 volt to it while on the bench as I individually replaced lamps until all were lit reasonably consistently
10-24-2019, 07:29 AM
#21
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Re: Idiot lights
in my experience most of the issues will be in the contacts between the innards of the green sockets and the new lamps, some spray contact cleaner can help.
It is also helpful to clean all of the contact point between the board and the lamps and the board and the dash pocket. a good pencil eraser works well.
last I re-lamped one, I ran 12 volt to it while on the bench as I individually replaced lamps until all were lit reasonably consistently
It is also helpful to clean all of the contact point between the board and the lamps and the board and the dash pocket. a good pencil eraser works well.
last I re-lamped one, I ran 12 volt to it while on the bench as I individually replaced lamps until all were lit reasonably consistently
I don’t have contact cleaner, but would rubbing alcohol work? I’ve used the alcohol on the car-to-panel plugs, but that didn’t help any. I will definitely try the eraser too.
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