Ransford2987

This is a poll to see whether or not people are interested in wireless sensors. For my BSEE, I have to design and create a product, and I'd like to try my hand at creating some wireless engine sensors:

CTS
O2
TPS
etc.

Just to clarify, the sensors themselves would be passive, with an active wireless receiver that would connect directly to the ECM; plug and play. There would be no programming or software/hardware changes necessary for the ECM. I'm really looking to see if anyone would buy them for a retrofit, or a new car that had wireless sensors. Feel free to post any feedback on this, or if there's anything else you'd like to see wireless on a car. All input is greatly appreciated, thanks!

Lurbie

iTrader: (3)

I work in the automotive industry and wouldn't trust today's technology to reliably transfer data over the air at the rates necessary to provide the required performance of sensors like the ones you mention. Just thinking about the difficulties of interference in the TPM systems is enough to say "no thanks" for any of my vehicles. I've got one to many stories of driving by certain areas and setting a TPM light for loss of signal. What would happen if that were my oxygen sensors or worse, my throttle sensor? IMO there's too much liability and not enough reward at this point. I'd be worried that the real world results would be less than tolerable for most of today's customers.

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

Hello Mr. Ransford ,

While I applaud your inventive spirit and imagination , I don't see the practical application of "bluetooth sensors" under the hood . I believe this because as Mr. Lurbie said , there is no way a radio link is gonna beat the speed of data flowing down a solid wire . Since there will always have to be the power wires of things like the ignition and the injectors there will always be harnesses to hide the sensor wires along with . The wireless sensor for tire pressure comes to mind here to raise the question of how long do the batteries last in these sensors and how well would these micro batteries preform in freezing cold weather ?

Ransford2987

Thanks for the input, guys. I definitely appreciate your time here. I completely agree with the worry that something can always go wrong with sensors, and adding another variable to the equation is not always the best idea. The sensors themselves would be passive: no batteries, no power. You're right on the power for the injectors, starter, alternator, etc; there's just no way to get around that (yet ). This isn't necessarily a "solve the wiring harness" fix, but something that can be used to go forward with. The more practical side of it would be new cars, especially since they all seem to be built with technology in mind these days...

Once again, thanks for the input guys. Is there anything you might like to see wireless in your car? Or new cars?

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

I don't know if this counts as wireless or not , ok maybe not , but , I'd love to see a keyless system that once programmed would open the door and start the engine with just the act of grabbing the door handle for the door lock and grabbing the shifter for the engine . As in , no other motion or buttons or anything else required , the door handle and shifter handle "know" your fingerprints and only activate for you . Truly no more fumbling with keys and pretty hard to steal , unless the owner forgets and leaves it in "valet" mode

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Transmitting power wirelessly long before it was cool.

Ransford2987

OrangeBird, I would enjoy designing something like, but sadly it's been done (in some form or another). The door handle design that is used today isn't quite like that, but incorporating a fingerprint scanner wouldn't take enough "engineering" to be considered a design project; the design project has to be original (sadly). I get it, but I still think there are some engineering and design aspects to be learned from engineering anything involving electronics. Thanks again for all of your help.

Keep those thoughts coming, and any feedback, good or bad, is welcome.

Ransford2987

TTT

Lurbie

iTrader: (3)

Certainly some great inventions came from other ineffective designs (no criticism intended, I'm thinking Post-It notes for example). Almost every sensor coming to mind right now is, in today's technology, running off of a 5V reference circuit. So I can't imagine how a sensor would become passive, except maybe the Knock sensor and unheated O2 sensors, but the inefficiency of one-wire O2 sensors combined with current EPA requirements are what made them obsolete. I like your intent, that sure sucks that you're stuck with developing a unique project, versus updating a current design. Best of luck with your project, I hope it goes well for you.

alex722607

iTrader: (3)

The only reason I wouldn't is because of interference.

Ransford2987

How do you mean the interface?

As far as the passive sensor, the wireless portion would be passive. The sensor would remain the same; the wireless transmitter would connect to the sensor itself, and then get it's power from the main receiver. Passive sensors are limited in functionality, but a 5V sensor isn't exactly stretching the bounds of modern day electronics. That's the goal anyway. They also have batteries and a kinetic charging system that can use the vibrations of the engine for power. That's our second option if the capabilities of the passive sensor are too limiting.

The delay issue that I've heard is a non-issue with today's wireless capabilities. In a study on wireless transmission under the hood of some european cars showed an average of around 5 nanoseconds for data submission and reception. Much of this info will depend on path length and wave reflection, but most of the area necessary for wireless transmission is small and we shouldn't see much attenuation over short distances.

The normally 12V powered sensors, like the heater circuit for O2 sensors and the injectors are exceptions to this, but we can't solve every problem at once. Eventually I'd like to be able to transmit wireless power to the injectors and control them that way, but I'm no Telsa.

Once again, thanks for all the input. It's been a great help as far as bringing up issues that might arise early on and make sure we're capable of actually designing this. Thanks again.

Ransford2987

TTT

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Id be down to be the guinea pig for a few of these

I doubt there will be a completely wireless engine, but some of the peripherals may thin a harness down quite a bit. From a LSx point of view, dropping the MAF, IAT, IAC stepper motor, TPS, CTS, knock sensors and reverse lock would dump half the harness. Critical circuits like INJ, crank and cam sensors would have to remain hardwired

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

In practical application , a sensor operating at a "data level" power factor could be a candidate for such technology . Things like the IAC stepper motor , on the other hand , are either gonna need one Hell of a battery connected to them (defeating the purpose of wireless) or have an antenna of 50K watts or so beaming it the energy ALA Tesla mentioned above . There will be no "bluetooth" motors in things like the IAC due to the current needed to operate the motor .

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

I understand that, also know how little voltage piezoelectric sensors like knocks produce. I was stepping up to allow him a testbed with practical feedback to refine his idea

Ransford2987

I'm not sure exactly what the power level is for the IAC motor, but it can't be much; maybe a few watts. Even if the larger power consuming loads can't completely be wireless, battery and kinetic power will be enough. If not the older versions of these on our cars, definitely newer ones today.

For a final design, if we can't use existing sensors, we can always make them or use other types to meet the needs of wireless. The IAC may be able to be controlled w/ wireless by the addition of a small reduction gear set. That's more than our project will cover, but it certainly gives one alternative.

I don't have the calculations yet for the signal power, but a few dBm is all I'm expecting. We'll probably start with the CTS and move on from there time permitting. Doing the test on my car is the plan for now. My other partners in innovation have newer cars, so it would be interesting to see if we could use one sensor on all of them with minor adjustments.

Pocket, you're right on with the LSX view. That's the goal: to eliminate as much as possible on newer installed engines and harnesses. While I would never buy these just to replace my current sensors (unless I had a lot of extra cash and time), implementing them on newer cars is an option.

OrangeBird, thanks again for your input. We need all the input we can get for this, and while you may be skeptical of it, you bring up valid points for us to consider and try to design around.

Thanks again, guys.

camarotucker

iTrader: (2)

Maybe worth a read

http://www.lsxtv.com/features/sema-c...for-ls-market/

Ransford2987

That's a sweet setup for anyone venturing into LS territory. I might consider that when I drop an LS3 into my 80 Firebird. Still, though, eliminating or rerouting wires like that on a stock or factory car would still be some of the issue with so many connections to be made. That reminds me of what most auto manufacturers do today by hiding things under "beautification panels," i.e. plastic. It looks great, but I'd still like to ultimately have no wires. This is just another point that wireless sensor retrofitting isn't ever going to catch on. So the hope going forward is new cars. Thanks for the link! I'll bookmark that for when the time comes with my LS3

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Atomic EFI isn't new nor wireless. The ECM is the fuel rails, so a remote computer is condensed. Peripheral sensors are still used

Wireless sensors may not be practical for production cars, but there is always an application. Ex, rotating parts that cannot use a contact ring. Isolated parts, etc

A DIY car is an excellent testbed because an idea is much more difficult to market than a functional product

Ransford2987

It isn't, but it's still a sweet setup. Fear not, Pocket, we'll be making these wireless sensors and trying them out on my car (eventually), and possibly another car if one of my partners in crime will let me. I'll keep you guys updated on the progress we make.

If there are questions you guys have on this, feel free to ask. Or, as always, if there's any input, it's always welcome.

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

I don't have any questions but I do want to give you for effort . I was thinking about your thread here this morning as I was reading of bluetooth headlight controllers that allowed for changing of the colors of the trim rings around these expensive custom headlights . These are being sold now and so they are obviously finding a market with some folks . Yea , I guess even an old guy like me can see the cool factor of using your Iphone (or dash mounted tablet , for that matter) to control your headlights wirelessly and so there is proof right there that certain wireless applications are going to find their way into cars , even as retrofits , if the app is cool enough .

Base91

iTrader: (1)

Remember this is a project to demonstrate several engineering/design skills and it sounds like a very interesting subject. I don't believe transmission rates would be a problem as there are very high speed wireless devices now. Interference may be the biggest issue plus with recent demonstrations of hacking into vehicle computers security could be a problem. These can be overcome though. Broadcast power is here already. Tesla build a giant tower to do it and model electric planes have been flown using it. And no-wire cell phone charging. Anything that could eliminate at least some of the harness would be great.

Ransford2987

OrangeBird, you're right that a "cool factor" can definitely sell something. This won't have an app, though, and we are going into this knowing the outcome will not be received on the same level as the designing and completing this. I hadn't heard of people changing headlight colors via bluetooth; the fact that they are expensive makes me want to create something to sell people with too much money and not enough sense to spend it. In any case, Maybe this will be a product for the future. If not, I'll get my A and a BSEE; it's a win-win.

Base91, you present some good points there, and no doubt things we'll have to work around. The testing phase will happen at some point, but most likely after some simulations and a first prototype. We have collected data based on previous experiments, so we have some guidelines to follow the first time around. And I agree on the wiring harness elimination. That was the inspiration from this: no cutting or splicing new wires, breaking connectors, bad connections and grounds, or tracing it back into the wiring loom.

Thanks again for the support and the input and info you guys are presenting. I'll post some results when we have some, so stay tuned!

Ransford2987

Just wanted to give this thread an update in case anyone is still following it. In all, our wireless sensors worked. The communicated with an ECM out of the car, though the constant issue of battery power was never really solved. We ended up thermal energy harvesting from the engine block/intake manifold, though that still couldn't produce all the power we needed. Anyway, here's a website that shows our project and the various steps we took to get there. If you have any questions or thoughts, feel free to post and I'll answer them.
http://www.wirelessenginemanagement.com/

Pocket

iTrader: (24)

Thats awesome. Now comes the time to market them

Since your power is thermal, Id stick to hotter/harsher environments. EGT's and high friction applications

Major props to you for seeing it this far!

mcafee89formula

Holy **** it would be a miracle. Im in the middle of a 89 formula 5.3 twin turbo swap and it's a wiring nightmare. Im trying to put together a harness working with Painless Wiring and trying to together the right harness for me. Im losing hope. If there was wireless sensors I could buy for sensor in the car including in the dash I'd be so happy and some already. Im afraid I'll never get this wiring figured out. All the mechanical work is done and I get to the final wiring part and im thinking about scraping the whole project. If you can perfect it give me a call. PLEASE!!!!

Ransford2987

Your situation, and many others like it, are the reason we attempted to do this. The major limitation is still battery power and for that reason alone you wouldn't want to use these. But you can undoubtedly see the benefit. Plug it in and you're virtually done. Maybe some day in the future I'll perfect these and replace an entire harness with them, but for now they'll have to remain a representation of what is possible. If anyone wants the details of how to make this more of a reality and wants to continue this project, let me know!