seibertjd

Well, after finally getting my drivetrain back together and figuring out why my fuel pump wasn't pumping fuel, I am back with a bigger and better problem. I had no spark--which was to be expected, because everything else has gone wrong for me... When swapping motors, I broke my cap and rotor, and had not yet replaced the rotor. I was getting a nice healthy crank from the starter, just not getting any spark. So I went and got a new rotor and put it in. The starter acted like it wanted to crank, turned the engine a little, and then stopped cranking altogether. The starter is brand new, and as far as I can tell everything is hooked up. I have double checked to make sure I have all the wiring put in, the grounds are all good and tight, the starter wires are secured tightly... but still nothing. My battery charger says I am fully charged up, my interior light comes on, my radio light and power antenna light come on (those two turn off when I try to crank, but my interior light stays on). I am not sure where to go from here. I need help! I have no idea where to go from here. I do not have a multimeter, either, to top it all off. What should I do?

travis401

iTrader: (1)

go get a cheap $20 multimeter and see whats getting power and what isnt.

seibertjd

The last of my money went to the new rotor. I am now completely broke, so I am going to have to find a way to figure this out without the use of a multimeter or an ohm meter... I don't think I even have a 12v test light anywhere.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

you need to find what has power and what dont. unless you feel like licking the wires, you need a test light at the very least. borrow $20 and go get a multimeter.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

btw dont lick the wires. you can die.

seibertjd

I wasn't quite ready to resort to that anyway... as deperate as I am. I will see if I can come up with something. Where should I start looking? Is there anything specific it sounds like it might be?

travis401

iTrader: (1)

youd have to check the cranking circiut from bottom up and see where the power is stopping. seeing as it was cranking then just stopped it could be any number of things from a grounded wire to a part thats cone bad to maybe a simple loos connection on something.

im sure your 84 doesnt have VATS so you dont have a start enable relay or VATS module or column wiring, or anything associated with VATS that likes to go out.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

and the whole licking wires thing was ment as a joke. but knowing some of the peoples automotive skill levels that come on here, someone would read that and actually try it.

seibertjd

I made a test light out of a nail, broken screwdriver, primary wire and a dome light. It lights up on all of my hot wires, as far as I can tell... the starter is getting power, all the topside wires are getting power...

travis401

iTrader: (1)

have someone hold the light to the purple wire on the starter and turn the key and see if its getting power

seibertjd

Starter crank does get power.

travis401

iTrader: (1)

if the purple wire is getting power, then you have a faulty starter solenoid. or just a bad starter.

seibertjd

Even though the starter is brand new? It cranked just fine last night and this morning, before it stopped cranking altogether it slowed down dramatically. I understand new parts can malfunction. Another thing to note, is despite any cranking I have done, my battery charger shows my battery at 100% and won't charge it any further. I put it on a battery that I know is now good, it started at 65% and a few minutes later it said 100%. Is it possible that it is getting power, but not enough to spin? Or would there be some kind of clicking/clunking if that were the case?

travis401

iTrader: (1)

it would be clicking. the clicking is the sound of the starter solenoid moving. even if you have a tiny fraction of juice left the starter solenoid would click. it just wouldnt have juice to spin the motor and youd see the lights dim as it tried.

take it back and have them replace it, dont just let them bench test it and tell you its fine.

seibertjd

Looks like that is what I will have to do. I tried crossing the hot starter wire with the starter crank peg, and all I got was a little spark... no sound, no nothing. This is becoming very frustrating... it is like this car doesn't want to be fixed!

travis401

iTrader: (1)

all the solenoid does is move when 12v is applied (the clicking sound). it moves the gear out to make contact with the flexplate/flywheel and moves contacts inside the starter to allow full battery power to spin it. no click = bad solenoid.

seibertjd

I took the starter in to Napa, and they tested it. They said they would replace it if I wanted them to, but they can't have the replacement in til Monday. However, they hooked it up to there machine and it spun very healthily. I am at wits end here. :-/

I know you said not to just let them bench test it and tell me it was fine, but I didn't have much of an option since they don't have it on hand. Such is one of the great joys of living in Alaska.

TreeFiddy

Heh Travis, I'm sure in the 1 minute it took you to post your disclaimer, somebody did!

Seiber - might also be the engine ground cable, or even some grounding problem the starter bolts - my

seibertjd

Define 'engine ground cable'... I have a few cables that are grounding TO the block, and I have one that was once hooking the block up to the frame very hap-hazardly near the alternator... It is disconnected now, but I have hooked that up too and it didn't help. I am pretty sure the starter bolts are OK, they are clean and bare. I have been staring at an engine wiring diagram long enough to just about have it memorized, and I am pretty sure I am hooked up right... My first thought had been a ground, but I just don't see how I couldn't be well grounded.

TreeFiddy

There should be an earth strap between the engine and the chassis, or a cable straight from the batt to the engine. Not sure where it's located stock though, mine's had an engine swap by the po.

Remember 5-600 cold cranking amps have to pass from the battery to the starter and back, so the entire cable path including the block has to be up for the job. However in your case as Travis has pointed out, the solenoid's not clicking either, and that requires relatively little current - points to a starter/solenoid problem.

Unless of course there is NO engine ground - did you get the no spark sorted out? A bad engine ground would cause both problems. When you used your test light were was it grounded - engine or chassis or batt?

seibertjd

I didn't get the no spark sorted out... I went to go get the new rotor, went to crank the engine, and it cranked over a few times very slowly and then stopped altogether. I have tried running a ground straight from the chassis to the block, and the negative cable from the battery is going to the alternator mounting bracket, which was how it was configured before I took it apart.

As for the ground for the test light I made, I grounded it on the intake manifold where the alternator mount bolts to. There is another black wire there on that bolt, which is how it was configured before I took it apart.

seibertjd

Alright, here is my update on this.

I took the starter (which Napa said was good) and put it up next to the battery. I hooked my positive up to the battery peg on the starter, and hooked my negative straight onto the starter with a bolt. I got sparks at the starter crank peg when I hit it with a hot wire, but no crank. Someone suggested (not from this board) that I give the solenoid a few good whacks with a mallet. So I did.

After hitting it with the mallet a few times (with a block of wood in between--just to make sure I didn't do any damage), I hit the S peg with a hot wire, and it spun. It spun so nicely, it almost sounded like it was going to take off. So, I decided to throw it back in, to see if it would work now. It didn't. After it wouldn't crank once installed, I did the 'beat the solenoid with a mallet' thing again, giving it a couple good solid whacks with a block of wood up against the solenoid, and then I went to turn the key. I heard a little clunk, and then nothing.

I know it is not a grounding issue, because I doctored up all of my grounds, sanded down to bare metal on the block and the chassis, ran my negative cable to a bare metal ground on the block, and grounded the block to bare metal on the chassis. I also sanded down the area around the bolt holes for the starter, to be sure. Everything is bare, the wires are not corroded, and the grounds should be fully functional at this point. I also know that the battery is not the problem, because it is the same battery (charged to full) that I used to spin the starter outside the car.

So it looks like the solenoid is bad. You can get it to spin outside the vehicle, when it is just spinning freely--but as soon as you put it up to the flywheel, it just jams up. I am going to take it back in to Napa again tomorrow, as they are closed now and said they couldn't get the starter til tomorrow anyway, and I will post back here with what happens. At least now I know all my ground connections are good to go, and the issue isn't my fault...

seibertjd

I just went and swapped the starter out over at Napa. Hooked the new one up after checking the gear mesh, and it cranks like a dream. They didn't argue with me about the solenoid.

Now I still don't have spark--and wiring is suspect. Can anyone tell me what this stuff is supposed to hook into?

travis401

iTrader: (1)

looks like the plugs for the distributor. the 3 prong connects the coil to the distributor electronics. the other looks like the wire is white, which would make it the tach signal wire

travis401

iTrader: (1)

if thats what that 3 prong connector is, and its not hooked up, that would explain why you dont have spark....

seibertjd

It is hooked up, I was just making sure that I wasn't out of my mind. The other wire is brown, and is hooked up to a small condensor looking thing on the firewall. Everything seems to be hooked up right, but I am still not seeing a spark... Maybe I am not checking it right? Right now I have my #1 plug sitting on top of a wrench in the windshield when I crank, cause I am working on this on my own...

travis401

iTrader: (1)

check to make sure that single wire is getting 12v with the key on. and thats it plugged into the batt slot on the distributor

seibertjd

It doesn't seem to be getting voltage, that little wire...

travis401

iTrader: (1)

then you can either figure out why not, or just run a switch 12v source to the BATT slot on the distributor. sounds weird, but the BATT slot needs switched 12v.

seibertjd

There is a voltage supply line going into a connector that goes into that, which has 12v only when the key is on... can I just bypass that little canister?

seibertjd

Sorry, didn't wait for a reply... I took the voltage supply line and ran it straight to the coil. + Spark. I will replace the little thing on there later. Thanks for the help!

travis401

iTrader: (1)

no clue what that lil canister is, but you looks like you figured it out

seibertjd

Yeah... its getting scrapped. I will do some research later to see if I need it or not, but the connectors are screwy and it looks a little out of place. For now, I just want to get this SOB fired up. I knew it was something simple keeping me from progressing--now onward, to timing (which may be a pain, since I have no timing tab on my timing cover). I appreciate all the suggestions and the good information. I love this forum!

Gaznick

I had a similar problem in my 87 Z28, except it was a tpi. Anyway when I had replaced the distributor and rotor, and also after adjusted the timing, I would get no spark. It turns out that the wire that connected to my ignition control module located underneath the distrubutor cap would keep shorting because of the cheap plastic that had seemed to simply crumble away that was originally meant to conceal each wire. Me and my father used the fuel injector wire connector piece and it fit just fine with a little bit of easy wiring. So I have a very strong opinion that your ignition control module is fried. If that is the case you will have to obviously get a new one but make sure that all your wires underneath or around the distrubutor cap are not stripped or damaged. Before you put the ignition control module in you have to apply a generous amount of the grease supplied with your part. Im almost certain that it is dielectric grease but i could be wrong. Good luck
-Justin

seibertjd

You are correct on the dielectric grease. However, this isn't the ICM, this is an external condensor mounted on the firewall. Like I said, the research is not over, and I am not ruling out other ignition problems. The wiring for the distributor itself, and the module connectors all look alright. The only thing I did was bypass the firewall mounted thing. I assume it is probably there to help regulate the voltage going into the coil so it doesn't burn up over time, but I could be wrong on that. I will replace it after I get the car running, if I find that I need to.

84z350crate

Any update on this old thread as I am having similar problems

seibertjd

The rod that connects the dizzy to the oil pump wasn't present in the engine I had bought. The engine had to be rebuilt after cranking on it with no oil.