snflupigus

1st. I hate electrical.

I installed a new starter because the headers had baked the old one's solenoid so bad that it finally died completely. It would just click once when i turned the key, and at first if i just kept turning the key on and off it would finally catch and turn the motor over. Other times it would just click then never click again and i had to tap the starter then try again. Or it might not ever click and i had to tap the starter and try again. Again, finally it just plain wouldnt do anything. I replaced it and the new starter fired up fine like 10 times then the other day after driving in the 110 degree heat and letting the car sit for an hour, it clicked once then started. I was ANGRY to say the least. O, and before replacing, it would start more often on the first try with the remote start vs the key so thats all I used after a while to start the car. I either need a heat shield or need to have some wires checked out. VATS is disabled - I'm using EBL.

ANYWAY, ever since i put the new starter in my gauge lights fuse blew and my tail light fuse blew. I replaced the gauge light fuse first not knowing the tail lights werent working and had no problems with that one again until i tried replacing the tail fuse after realizing they werent working. New tail fuse in, turn on the lights and POP both the gauge lights and tail go.

This is a new issue only since the starter was replaced. Any suggestions?

note: the accessory cig lighter plug will blow that fuse everytime if i try to stick something in there. I think the previous owner wired the dual fan switch into that system? I need to look some more wiring in detail.

and an alarm and remote start is installed but i never had any trouble from that.

Thanks,

Nic

BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

Howdy, I understand your frustration with electrical. Especially if it seems that the starter and tail fuse are connected. Which we'll try to find out here.

It seems that you might have a short somewhere in the gauge lights circuit. Called Instrument Lamps by GM. It powers the lights behind the gauges and the lights that illuminate the HVAC controls, radio faceplate, automatic shifter etc.

The path of the current (simplified) when it reaches the fusebox is through the TAIL fuse, through the headlight switch, through the dimmer on the headlight switch, through the INST LPS fuse and to all the illumination lightbulbs. If both fuses keep blowing at once, that would point to this INST LPS circuit.

If you pull the INST LPS fuse but put a fresh fuse into the TAIL place, will your tail lights work? That would confirm the diagnosis.

Lou

snflupigus

ok pulled out the INST LPS fuse and put a new 20 in the TAIL fuse - turned on the lights and pop... i heard it blow.

Earlier I had put a new fuse in TAIL and the INST LPS fuse was still good so I guess they are not blowing together as I previously thought, but it DID blow both the first time - just not everytime after. Everything worked fine, brake lights, Inst lights, started the car... had the hood opened a bit, lifted it and closed the hood. POP - no more tail lights. Something is loose somewhere and touching something... right, has to be...

I guess I need to crawl under the car and see if something has touched the headers on the fusable links or something?

snflupigus

Ok, looking at some diagrams... It doesnt look like it could be anything related to the starter if ONLY my TAIL lights and gauge aka INST LPS are not working.

The Radio works and so do the turn signals and brake lights.

narrowed down and still not clue LOL

BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

You are right, the two fuses that are blowing have nothing to do with the starter.
And I don't believe that any of the wires on those circuits go anywhere near headers. The park lamp (tail light) wires travel from the dash to the back of the car on the floor, under the carpet, next to the driver side seat, through the cavity in the rear fender into the trunk, then through the wall out to the driver side tail light and then it traverses to the passenger side. The front park lamps are fed by wires through the firewall and along the left front fender and then the wires traverse in front of the radiator.
So there shouldn't be any place where they can touch the headers at all.

Shorts are not the easiest to find but hang in there.

A neat trick you can use is disconnect ALL bulbs and put two long wires into the TAIL fuse and run them to the dash, for example (with the car parked). Then put a 12V test light on these two wires.
If you now turn on the park lamps, the test light should be OFF. If it's on, you got a short somewhere (yeah, we already know that). Now wiggle wires under the hood or in the trunk and watch the test light. If you create a short, the light will light up. Wiggle until you locate the bad spot.

HOpe this helps.
Lou

snflupigus

disconnect all marker and tail bulbs? ok. the test light should be off but in the case that it would be ON - that would be because even with the bulbs out, you would still have ground at the short right? ok... so I'm just creating a single point of reference I guess and not worrying about frying wiring by having the test light connected accross the fuse location while finding that short??

Is it possible that it isnt a short and it is a bulb drawing too many amps?

I dont really feel like blowing 10 more fuses just trying to find this thing.

I disconnected all other alarm and aftermarket wires at the battery terminals just in case. Also looked around a bit at any other wires from the area and see no issues.

what keeps popping into my head was that randomly after popping like 4 fuses, i replaced the TAIL fuse AGAIN with the lights off etc and when I turned them on it didnt pop. I thought maybe it had fixed itself (which I know never actually happens) but I went to close the hood and then it popped right then. That just screams loose wire grounding out doesnt it?

BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

Yup, that screams that something is grounding out. Do you have to slam the hood or just gently close it to pop the fuse?

Alarms are also hooked up to park lamps so it could be a short in that device as well.

Yes, if you remove all lightbulbs in the park lamp/tail light circuit, there should be NO drain through the fuse. Then the test light will act as a fuse but the trick is that since it has power from the fuse block, it WILL light up if you short the circuit that the fuse is powering. It's VERY useful, for example while closing the hood.
I know it's a pain to disconnect all bulbs but it really takes only 10 minutes and then it's MUCh easier to find the short with the test light.

I'm off on vacation for a week so if you don't hear from me, it's not because I'm ignoring you.

Hope you find it quick.
Good luck!
Lou

snflupigus

pulled all marker and tail light bulbs. put a fuse in, turned on the lights. i get a 1 second tone from the HEY, YOUR LIGHTS ARE ON dinger, and pop.

I'm thinking it has to be the wiring that connects the alarm into the marker lamps to pulse them when arming and disarming the alarm. even though the alarm doesnt have power, i realize that is my best bet for a short.

right?

CamaroRider

A properly working 12 volt test light installed across the fuse connection should not permit enough current 'through the bulb' to fry the wires that have the suspect short to ground. It would simply be like hooking the test light from the positive battery terminal to the negative battery terminal. The bulb would simply light up. The negative wire on the test light would not 'burn up'. So I would have => NO FEAR <= in that respect!

Now when you go jiggling wires try to use some type of methodical approach. If you jiggle the wires too fast the test light might not be fast enough to flash brightly when you cause the system to go from NO SHORT to SHORT. You should probably apply pressure slowly and see if it causes or removes the short. It is does NOT change the condition then consider shaking them a little harder until you are 'pretty sure' the problem is not in that area. Then move on to the next area to try.

Another thing curious is the slamming of the hood blowing a fuse. That to me would suggest a short at a WIRE rather than a component connection. Something with insulation that has 'worn through' over time. So it would seem to me it is something that is capable of flexing just enough when the hood is shut that it 'bounces' and that makes the contact. It might be where a wire crosses over an edge of metal. That vibration from the hood cannot be all that large to most wires, so it is probably a wire that is most of the time 'oh so close!' to shorting out.

Also, using some type of +12 volt audio sounder in place of the test light might help in a single man troubleshooting session. You would not have to look at the bulb while your head is under the dash ...

blove78634

I may be off line. However, I thought I read that you didn't know if it was/wasn't related to the starter.

I had the same thing in my 88. I put an aftermarket radio in and I accidentally hooked the ground from the head unit to what I thought was a ground wire. It was really dark brown (in the shade it looks black). If I would pull the light switch it would blow a fuse everytime. I disconnected the ground and put it straight to the chasis and whooooala, no more blown fuses.

My camaro is hardly driven at night so I never noticed that the taillights/guage lights wouldnt work.

Hope this helps.

snflupigus

id like to be able to think it was just coincidence that the starter just got replaced. the starter and tail lights are only connected in any way shape or form through the alarm brain. I cant get my head around the timing of this fuse blowing. When everything works perfectly for 3 years then you replace a starter and something is shorting now? Thats why I keep suspecting it is involved. I workled weekends for a summer 8 years ago at an automotive shop/car stereo/audiovox distributorship my parents owned. This is why I hate wiring. Actually, I dont, I hate when someone ELSE has touch the wiring --- I learned that modifying wiring by installing aftermarket equiptment RARELY results in perfect factory performance over time. Once you tap into a wire, if you arent soldering cleanly and heat shrinking and taping ALL of your connections, it will fail. I HATE tab connectors. I have no idea who installed this alarm system/remote start but I cant help but assume that it is finally showing its potential. I will crawl under the dash again today and see what I can find.

BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

Back from vacation.
Sorry to hear that you haven't found it yet.

Nic, I'd recommend to simply unplug the alarm and see if the fuse still blows. That would confirm your suspicion. Provided that your alarm is like most and has a big fat connector that can disconnect everything.

Lou

snflupigus

i yanked the mid 90's brick of a clifford alarm and seperate remote start system etc... some of the connections were wires wrapped around others and taped - without being soldered, but most were soldered. A lot of cut wires that werent used for this particular install that were not capped or taped. Also another sign of crap work was a realy installed without a relay socket, wires directly to the relay and taped up --- not sure what that was to either.

I'm in process of reconnecting and taping off the cut and spliced into wires under the column.

I did find an orange wire comming out of the column bundle that was pulled out of something and bare. there are 2 little white insulated wires inside that one skinny orange wire. My guess would be that it used to be installed into some sort of plug... also looks like one relay plug is missing a relay and 2 other plugs missing something to be connected to. I know not everything should have something plugged into it but i'm curious about what they are. Anybody have a picture or diagram for what is under the column?

I should have it buttoned back up today and find out if it still wants to pop fuses. if so, I'm going to replace the dimmer's load transistor as indicated as a possible point of issue in another thread.
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BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

That orange sheeth with white wires inside is for VATS. I take it yours must be bypassed if it's been cut off.

I see a brown wire hanging down from the column. That's a parklamps wire. Make sure it's insulated and not shorting out anywhere.

Lou

snflupigus

orange brown yellow and reds were all tapped into for the alarm and remote start. I have to go get some 10gauge for the yellow. I have to add a few inches to each to connect them all back up. Soldering, heat shrinking and taping each. Eventually I'm going to install a newer updated alarm/remote start system but only after I know all the stock wiring is back to good.

as for the VATS - I guess it is gone completely then, I know it's disabled in the ecm, I'm using Rbobs EBL ECM. So that wire would have went into the VAT's module and then? I hope I'm not going to have to do anything extra to get it to start now that the alarm system is out.

BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

The two white wires in the orange sleeve would normally have a connector on them and they would continue into the dash and to the VATS module. If the system is disabled, you don't need to worry about that anymore.

Lou

snflupigus

all wires resoldered and completed last weekend... no fuse popping, no start issues. I dont even know if i want to install a new system now. Maybe if I do it myself. I know nobody at a shop will want to touch it if its been touched before anyway. Thanks for all the advice guys.

BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

Glad you found it!

Yeah, you don't want a "shop" touching your car. Bunch of high-school drop-outs stripping wires and twisting them together, covering their handiwork with tape. I wouldn't take my car to a shop even if I lost my both arms and couldn't work on it myself.

So now that you know all the wires under your dash, it won't be hard to install an alarm. They usually tie into a few wires and you can always take it slowly, connect power first, test it out, connect lights next, test it out, connect door locks next, test it out ... etc.

Troubleshooting electrical problems over the Internet is never easy but we can always find a way.
Glad you're happy with the result.

Lou

snflupigus

Yes, thanks for all your guys help...

of course now since i've touched them... i have a tail light out and have to get in there again.

always something...

snflupigus

well - replaced the 194's that were burnt... and somebody put a double filament bulb into a reverse light so that wasnt right. Fixed all that.

Drove the car 400 miles over a few days the last couple weeks... No problems... then last night I'm driving home at night after leaving the club and look down, no gauge lights... I pulled over and confirmed the fuse was blown AGAIN!

any help on this mystery again?

I think my next replace is the switch?

btw, Camaro for sale... This is the last thing I want to spend my weekends doing.

BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

Hmm, when the short happens, is it intermittent or does it stay long enough for you to find it?
Because in the latter case, we could try to find it.

Lou

snflupigus

When i plug a new fuse in, and pull the lights on... that little f'n fuse blows like a flashbulb! LOL

I need to replace the front left marker's rubber 194 socket and the rear right's 194 socket. both have contact issues so that very well could be it too. I'll have to order those from my family's dealership this week.

BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

Darn, there isn't a very good way to test the headlight switch for a short without removing it (or the harness).
If you can replace the switch and it fixes the problems, then we can safely assume that it was an internal short.

Sorry, I can't find a way to test whether it the switch or the harness. I've been staring at the schematic for the last 15 minutes and I just can't find a way.

Hopefully it's just the switch.
Lou

tom86iroc

iTrader: (1)

you can unplug the tail lights in the back of car then turn the switch on see if the fuse blows if it doesnt has something to do with the rear section of wire and the front runs thru the big bundle on the drivers side where it meets the fire wall un can unplug that witha 6 or 7 mm socket

snflupigus

i cut off the front rubber 194 socket on the driver side. the contacts were corroded and broken out and i'd removed the bulb. After I did that I put a new fuse in and it didnt pop. I drove the car last night with no problems either.

I SHOULD have tried to replace the fuse before cutting that off, that way I'd know for sure that it was an issue or a coincidence.

I'll have to drive it more and see if maybe it has something to do with heat and extended driving time.

sure is a mystery.

snflupigus

she popped again after driving for a few days with no problems...

so today i said F it... i took the bottom dash out again and pulled out the switch to see if it was dirty etc...

decided to jump the fuse with a solid wire and wait for something to smoke...!

the wire got hot. i turned the lights off. let it cool. turned em back on and no hot wire. put a fuse in. fuse is fine. this mystery keeps solving itself while i stare at it. I did not touch any other wires that could be shorting or anything.

i simply put a jump wire in. saw it heating up (it moved yes) and felt it and it was heating up. so i shut the headlight switch back off. turn them on again like 1 minute later and waited for it to get hot again. it didnt. i pulled the wire, replaced it with the 20amp fuse and everything is magically fine again. ARG! @#$%^

replace the switch anyway?

snflupigus

ran the flashers and had all the lights on for an hour - ran the battery dead.

jump started it, pulled into the garage. car still on, got out, closed the car door and it popped.

jumped the fuse with wire again trick, no go. wire smoked. nothing else. so good and bad. im gonna replace the switch, it was hangin down and i think thats what jolted it.

snflupigus

yanked the switch, used a test light on everything. good.

jumped red (fusable link hot) to brown(tail lights) and orange(tail fuse power) to brown and both times the lights came on ok without popping the fuse.

so i think...... it must be the switch now then right? plug in the switch, turn on the lights. everything is fine.

if you could hear me swearing right now......!!!!

thanks for any help.

bad bulb sockets? bad bulb?

should i just trace that brown wire ALL the way to the bulbs etc.?

BigBadLou

iTrader: (3)

Well, I'd hope that the new switch fixed it!

But if it doesn't, I'd trace the brown wire. Just thinking out loud here: normally, wires don't chaff inside the loom, they usually rub on some metal parts when outside the loom. I'd check in the engine compartment (from C100 to the front lights) which isn't that bad. Then I'd DEFINITELY check under the edge of the carpet, driver side, by the door, that's a common place where things can go wrong (people put screws through it etc). It definitely sounds like an intermittend grounding problem (from the door slamming and fuse popping etc).

I know how frustrated you are and I'm crossing my fingers that you find it!
Lou

snflupigus

Ok. so I wanted to wait to post my final response on this thread because before everytime i thought i had this thing fixed it blew again. But alas, I ordered a new switch, installed it, and everything has worked fine now for well over a month.

SO, fyi to anyone blowing the TAIL fuse constantly or randomly or both like me. Replace your headlight switch first. --- in looking at my old switch again, it feels like it had just gotten really loose and maybe had some carbon or metal shavings slowly built up from use all these years that it was just starting to short randomly. The new switch is tight and harder to move with no play and with obvious resistance in the sweep for the dimmer.

also, as noted above. my alarm is what was causing my starter to randomly just click instead of engage. O well, so I have a new starter I didnt necessarily need right now but I'm sure it would have needed it soon. I also have replaced the battery in the last month. It made it 3 years in AZ, usually they only last 1 because of the intense summers.

Now off to reseal the intake manifold from when I didnt put enough RTV along the back edge. always somethin.....

Thanks for all your help guys.