EnglishFirebird

Hi there,

I have just a few weeks ago bought a new 1992 Firebird, 3.1l V6

The previous owner advised me he (recently...) had trouble starting it unless the battery was fully charged, he said he felt bad and supplied a brand new starter as a spare with it. As you can see from you VBGarage, the car is in good shape so I didn't walk away.

I drove down from Durham to Reading (England, y'all) which is about 300 miles. During this I stopped for petrol a couple of times and visited a friend in Coventry for a couple of hours to break the journey. All went well.

The next morning I wanted to get the exhaust looked at as it was blowing noisily. The car wouldn't start. I had the breakdown people come out, and annoyingly while they were here it started fine, without a jump.

I went to the exhaust place, it was a bit ropy but the guys there happily welded up the exhaust, which was a custom job due to non-availability of Pontiac parts here, and had come apart next to the oxygen sensor. They also fitted the new starter motor for me.

I thought that was the problem solved, but after driving it to work and back a few times, I started it, turned it off and then could not start it for 10 minutes.

I then had no further problems until I drove to a friend's for the annual Gloucester Cheese Rolling (http://www.cheese-rolling.co.uk/the_event.htm)

It got there perfectly, but we were going to take it to the pub and it would not start. It then started perfectly when we got back from the crazy traditional event, which was annoying.

I have had a couple of additional occasions where it would not start without a second battery as a jump. Time to buy a new battery I thought, so yesterday I fitted a massive new calcium battery, the biggest I could get locally.

Today, I could not start it even with that battery and the old one, and then a couple of hours later it started fine on its own. I have taken it for a good 20 minute, 25 mile trip, parked it, re-started and driven back, and I am reasonably hopefuly it will start again tomorrow morning for work.

Now you've read the story, are there any ideas for good diagnostic tests to isolate the problem?

The alternator shows a steady 15 volts on the dashboard when driving. I have the old battery, charged up with jump leads in the boot.

I bought this car as a daily commuter drive, I intend to get rid of all the rust underneath and inside, convert it to run on LPG and generally modernise (safety and comfort, it already has good performance!). I have a Volvo estate that I can fall back on for now - but I need to get this Firebird reliable ASAP, certainly within a month.

So - please help me keep my car!

Thanks,

Alex

cooter26

iTrader: (1)

The times it dosent want to start what does it do? Turn over but not start? Click, nothing at all?

EnglishFirebird

When it doesn't start, it does nothing at all - no clicks or motor sounds that I can hear. Just a very slight whine from the rear of the car, once.

Subsequent attempts also make no noise at all.

I have noticed the security light on the dashboard was lit, but I haven't stopped to check if it does that when it starts normally.

This morning, it started first time, and I drove 35 miles to near work, stopped for petrol, started and drove 5 miles to work, then this evening it started first time, and I drove 40 miles home. So the big new battery I bought should be full by now. Still, unless I am just being paranoid, starting after work today, while still positive, was slightly less strong than it has been, which is brand new car strong on starting.

Ideas?

Alex

cooter26

iTrader: (1)

That whine is the fuel pump. Next time if it dosent start turn on the headlights and check if they are working, if so it is not you battery. I would check the wiring from the battery to the solenoid on your starter. Not sure what kind of parts stores you have over there but here you can get your alternator tested on the car for free. The solenoids on Chevys go bad fairly quickly due to exaust heat. Hope this helps.

EnglishFirebird

If the solenoid is part of the starter motor assembly as I think it is, then the whole starter has been replaced so I have to assume that's 100%.

The battery is brand new and as big as I could get, calcium chemistry so should have decent cranking power.

The voltmeter shows 15 volts when driving so it looks like my alternator's good.

That leaves the wiring!! I could try to replace the wiring to the solenoid.

I have seen some posts on here about problems with VATS...

I drove to work and back today with no problems starting.

I checked this morning, and noticed no 'security' light came on during start.

At the weekend when it would not start, the 'security' light did come on.

Does this mean the VATS system is definitely responsible?

Or is it just one possible explanation?

I have a Haynes and Chilton manual for wiring diagrams, but before I get out the wire strippers, can as many people as possible give me ideas of what the problem is and reasons why please? I have not got a lot of time to do the job so I want to be 90% sure I'm doing the best thing first!

Thanks all!

Alex

EnglishFirebird

Bump!

Any ideas at all, even contradictory???

I need to cover as many possibilities as possible while I have the electrics exposed, so I need to plan this!

Cheers,

Alex

cooter26

iTrader: (1)

Next time it does it, check if the headlights are working, if so it is either wiring, nuetral safety switch or ignition switch. If you turn the key to on and jump the selenoid with a screwdriver and it spind the engine over then it is one of the two problems above.

comradivanred

Is the firebird an automatic? If it is, does it have an after market shift? Either way, when it does it again, try wiggling the shifter while trying to start it. I had a problem similar to yours, turned out my shifter wasn't fully registering that it was in park (ever tried to start a car in D?). I still have the problem, but now it's not an issue.

EnglishFirebird

Thanks guys, it's an automatic so I will check the wiring to the park/neutral check!

I have already replaced my starter motor so I know this is good - but the wiring is unknown so I will try to do this.

I need a working car in a hurry - I have a plan and I wonder if you guys could comment:

1 I will attemt to completely by-pass the existing starting circuit, and wire in a brand new one!

2 I will use as simple a circuit as possible, with a starter button on the dashboard.

3 Assuming this works, all my components are good. If not, get new ones.

4 Re-introduce safety features such as auto park/drive sensor, key in ignition, VATS, one at a time.

5 Document this approach


Importantly - can anyone see any pitfalls with this approach?

For me the advantages are simplicity and time. It is hard to troubleshoot a circuit in unknown overall condition, where all the wires and switches have the same 15 years of vibrations etc, and I really can't just strip the car.

I have to keep the car in the street so even changing a fuse get my neighbours looking and asking me questions as the car is so unusual here!!!

I would really appreciate advice from people here experienced in car electrics!!! I have qualifications in electronics, but car electrics are a different frontier than computer circuits!

Thanks
Alex

thebandit92

Hi i am also in England and am having similar problems with my gta only mine turns over but does not start,hope you find the problem as it might help me with mine.My car has had vats bypassed and i have bypassed starter by putting a push button switch on dash with a wire straight from plus side of battery to switch and another wire from switch to back of starter solenoid,hope that helps you with your starter bypass.

firetie28

your problem may be the fuel pump relay(i had this problem before).

camaroz28cc

I had this problem on my 1985 Camaro a few years back. Turned out to be the actual ignition switch. When you turn the key solenoid to start the car it moves a contact accross a plate, when it connects, the car starts. It was this contact that had worn down on my car, and so the car would only start when the voltage/amperage just right. So quite annoyingly, sometimes it starts fine, and other times, it won't; let it sit there for a time, and a all of a sudden, it starts. Very frustrating, hope this helps.

Gordiggz

Have you looked at the starter wires at all? I would pull them off and inspect them thoroughly. You mentioned there was some rust under the car and starter wires are notorious for the ends rusting up and cracking. (I've been under the same truck in two different parking lots due to this.) I would say it's worth it anyhow to run a new battery cable and inspect the switch wire (the thin one) well. Even if it isn't the problem now it sure could be soon.

Corky

Sounds like a VATS problem to me. Read up about VATS below.

https://www.thirdgen.org/vats

Corky

92camaroz28ss

iTrader: (1)

did the problem ever get fixed? i am having similiar problems with mine and would like some input as to what you did