dana0330

I have a 1986 Camaro with a 2.8l that I added a small supercharger on to it. It bucks under boost; I know I have to tune it. I got a Cobra Rt emulator and a chip burner. The Tuner Pro seems over my head. I was thinking of scraping that idea and going with the Holley Terminator, it looks simpler to use and has a wide band o2 sensor and uses a map sensor and not a maf sensor. I am just looking to see what your thoughts are, on both.
Thanks Dana

thatsupnow

Terminator x. You'll have an easier time and Holley has a huge following

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Did you convert the ecm to accept a 28 pin chip ?
You got the motronicrt r6 ? I’m not sure but it could require a socket booster.

dana0330

No, I had it converted to a 24-pin chip, and I have a Cobra RT emulator that I got from Boosted NW. I did get a burner kit from them as well. I did spend a few bucks on the set up, but I do not think it will work out. After looking into the Holley set up it looks easier to use and has more control over the fueling and timing.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

not sure what you have going on, it was a 24 pin to begin with
$3A 302 ecm is tunable

dana0330

I had a new 24 pin socket put in for new prom chips, and the emulator socket plugs into the socket.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

must not need a socket booster. But why have a burner that only does 28 pin sst eeproms. Lost me there. I’d still tune what you have see what you can do just datalog or use a wideband gauge

dana0330

I got everything from Booted NT. They sold me the burner, the chips and a new socket for the ecm. I had them put the socket in, and I bought a emulator from them instead of using the chip. When I looked into tunning this way it looks like it will be way over my head and very timing consuming to figure out. I am not good with the computer coding. ant the Holley system looks easy to use. I only have to replace the upper intake, and throttle body for it to work. I can add a 3 bar map sensor for boost, and it will control the timing better. The only thing I won't have is EGRT and purge control.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

tunercat is easier to understand probably for a newer tuner. You might return what you can. Not sure the point of this thread but good luck tuning.

thatsupnow

Holley FTW! You'll be much happier with it than struggling to use old tech

dana0330

I looked into tuner cat, and they said that it would not support what I am trying to do with the supercharger. The point of the thread is to get some insight on what would work best, to get some opinions of what I can do. Mabey someone can tell me what they used for boost reference on a OBD1 tune without a map sensor. I look at all the block numbers and they do not make sense to me and I don't know what I would need to do to make the change. I am also looking to see if anyone has used the Holley system and let me know if it is as easy as it looks.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Might see if @tequilaboy has some suggestions. How much boost are you making and is the maf gps maxing out at 255 ?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I can't say whether the Holley will be easier or not. But, I would go with it before using the stock GM ECM. For multiple reasons, some of which you touched on. Getting rid of the non-replaceable and unreliable MAF is #1.

Then adding spark control while under boost.

I think the big one is that the Holley is able to easily run a V8 with boost too. Boost is addictive, not many stay with the little 6 banger when it is easier and cheaper to use a V8, even an old school SBC to make the power.

If this were a different GM ECM system, my response most likely would have been different. But an '86 2.8l GM ECM just isn't enough for where you are going.

RBob.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Options are locked timing with an old school FMU, or EBL system. To even consider buying and running a Holley system on a 2.8 V6 is absolutely ridiculous, the system itself is worth more than the car. That being said, don't kid yourself, the block will limit you to 450-500 horsepower, so members with youtube fantasies of making 1000 horse on a factory GM block is just not going to happen, regardless if you're fully forged or not. Make a plan and stick to it. You'll need 60-lb injectors to be safe at 450-500 horsepower without going static and having room to grow, so that's your first step... and even then I'd worry that the block will split in half at 500 horse, so I'd recommend a 450 horse cap, Don't go by so and so did this and that, build it right and build it safe, it's your investment nobody else's. Don't waste time fudging numbers with chips either for boost, its not worth the aggravation and possible carnage that follows. Tuning boost means you need adequate injector flow covering a predetermined horsepower range, and timing control. That's it. Everything else is NA tuning. Two steps, etc, are just add-ons that you can do if you so choose to do down the road...

Here I filmed this for this member at e-town years back when we hung out back in the day, ran a best of mid 12's with a larger turbo and the 2.8 V6. The vid below had a smaller turbo, and ran a best of 13.0 that night with the 2.8 V6 and 700R4. This engine had locked timing and Megasquirt.


- Rob

dana0330

It is making 10-12 psi. It bucks under boost, and I have to back it off. It has a fmu which is supposed to boost fuel pressure under boost. I put larger injectors in that helped a little but it used a lot of gas, and I was getting a rich code when cruising.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

That’s a lot of boost , I’d sell what you have and megasquirt or talking to rbob about a ebl if that would be a option.
call me crazy but I’d try tuning the 302 ecm.

alan91z28

also just from my experience, anything you go with is going to have its own issues... no question prom tuning on old GM ECUs can be challenging, some of us though have done it enough to enjoy it and just are use to it.

On the other extreme is the aftermarket type systems like Holley... Holley has a lot of nice things, but also has its own challenges with buggy software updates, non responsive factory support even when you clearly point out their software update issue, and the occasional loss of program if you happen to cycle the ignition in just the wrong sequence and leaves you with a dead car in a parking lot until you reprogram it (i have direct experience with all these)... in the end i got frustrated with Holley software / hardware reliability and now only use GM OEM from OBDI to 411 to E38 in my projects...

each system has its pros and cons, it is just what you want to do, what you want to learn to support, and what you are willing to live with

dana0330

I am not looking to make 400-500hp I am looking to make 250-275. If I wanted more horsepower, I would put a LS or small block in. I just wanted to get a little more power out of it.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

You could not pay me to put an absolutely un-reliable, garbage Holley ECM of any kind in any vehicle. Personally I would go to a later GM MAP based ECM like the 7730. There were factory turbo V6 setups running them.

thatsupnow

Just because you don't know how to use the Holley system doesn't make it garbage. Saying you'd rather use an old school 7730 ECM is just laughable

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I know how to use both of them. Holley ECUs are highly prone to failing and get discontinued after a couple of years, making replacements impossible to find. I do not find it laughable at all. I can make just as much power using that $25 GM ECM as you can with that junk Holley ECU. In the past 20 years I have seen exactly 1 failed GM OBD1 ECM and that was due to an injector shorting out. I have seen 1 failed GM OBD2 PCM and that was due to the oil pressure sending unit failing and filling it with engine oil.

I am actually running a Proflow4 system in one vehicle I own at the moment. Found the entire system for less than the cost of a decent manifold, throttle body, fuel rails and injectors. I decided to just throw it together the way it came using their ECM to see how it worked. If that ECM gives me problems, the engine is already setup to run on a GM OB2 PCM. I will swap that harness out in a few hours if it does. I can snag a replacement GM ECM/PCM the same day in just about any town I am in.

alan91z28

i think the issue in truth is - Holley a lot of flexibility and some real nice features that has in the end been poorly executed in terms of hardware design for practical reliability and durability...

besides the nice features that are very well known, it is also very well known about the software and hardware reliability issues if you hang out on the Holley EFI boards... i have experienced them all myself and I personally decided old school reliability was more important to me ... everything is a trade-off

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I'm reading all of what you're writing and none of it makes any sense to me. You want 250-275 horsepower out of an extinct 2.8 V6 that people can't even give away anymore and you are considering a two thousand dollar Holley ECU for it? No comment on the LS engine claim, as far as I'm concerned you'd be making an even worse mistake if you went that route even more so than just the Holley ECU for your 2.8 V6 , because then you'd definitely need a more modern processor and tuning equipment on top of the expense of an LS engine, a new trans and the entire swap in general. If the FMU isn't working out for you, don't waste your time with it anymore, get an EBL Flash and be done with it. For 250-275 horse you'll need 36# injectors to avoid going static while having a tad more room to grow in case you creep. I'd recommend 60# injectors because I already know you won't be happy with just 275 horse, so might as already have the fueling for it if you decide to do it. The current bucking can be due to quite a few reasons, but without any datalog you can't really be absolutely sure where to correct it, but there is no question that it's in your VE and AE tables with all of that sudden air rushing in...

- Rob

thatsupnow

I've only really seen more hardware issues with the lower end units not so much Dominator or HP units. I've been running Holley for over 10 years and have never had a single issue. But I've never run a cheap Terminator X system

alan91z28

obviously experience will vary and i truly respect your position as if you like it that is great. my experience with holley and the issues is with two HP installs i did, both of which i now have sitting on the shelf and back to GM 7730 and the other 411... i really liked Holley's parameter logic flexibility and a lot of other things, but i just couldn't live with things like random misfire software issue that was introduced in a version of 5 update that took 18 months for them to correct and on the other car the unit randomly losing its programming, that didn't happen often, but once it did i was done with it as i wasn't going to get stuck in a parking lot with a no start like a friend of mine had happen with his dominator

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

That is my point entirely. Does not even need to be an EBL to control a boosted 60* V6 as GM wrote code for boost and used it factory on some applications. It would be straight forward to tune that combination starting with the OE GM code and a matching 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor. The 1989 GrandPrix could be had with a turbocharged 3.1L. That car used the underhood 7727 version of the 7730. The code will run in a 7730 and the Camaro EFI harness can easily be re-pinned to run the 7730. The unreliable factory MAF hits the scrap pile and a reliable MAP sensor takes its place.

Personally going this route I would find a 3.1 or 3.4 and get ready to swap it in. The earlier 2.8Ls were known to break crankshafts even the under powered stock TBI S10 units. Many of the 3.1L and 3.4L were setup with factory DIS as well. More spark energy and more reliability going away from that garbage small distributor cap setup GM used on the earlier 2.8L. The FWD heads and manifold were also much better flowing. Not hard to find a pair of 3400 or 3500 heads and make the swap either. Far more power for a small $ investment.

dana0330

Thanks for all the great info on this subject. I did look into all options for this car from 350 swap to 3.4l swap. But I have a repair shop and I spend all my time fixing cars for other people. I did not want to get into an engine swap. The engine I have is a low milage one and I was able to work on getting the supercharger on it here and there and could do it without disabling it. I have a 03 Jaguar S-TypeR with a 450HP supercharged engine that I use if I want more speed. I got this low mileage Camaro cheap that is in great shape a few years ago that was like the one I had back in the day, that one was an 84 that I had put a 350 in. The car is fun to drive but I wanted to get a little more out of it. I was thinking of the 7730 swap but I did not want to get into all the wire re pinning. I figured if I could tune the stock computer that it would fix the bogging problem, But the 27302 computer is limited. I also tried 20lbs injectors that I got from SouthBay Fuel Injectors, and it helped but it used way more gas and would setting a rich code. I figured with the Holley system it would be easier to use and I would not have to pull the old harness out and could switch back if I need to. As far as this being a waste of money, we are all guilty of that with the car hobby. If I invested the money I spent on all my project cars over the years I would probably be a millionaire. I would like to use what I already have but I don't think this computer can fuel and retard the timing without a map sensor.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

There is more to it than just swapping for larger injectors, as that move alone forced an extremely limited O2 correction to now use but a fraction of its factory capability when out of boost. Those older OBD1 systems have maybe a 6% correction threshold, and I'm being generous. Switching from 17lb to 20lb injectors with or w/out the FMU is way too much fuel for a stock calibration. As for the 7730 ECM, if the vehicle came with one absolutely... but if you are going to go through the trouble of installing a replacement ECM and harness, then the EBL Flash is a no brainer. It also uses Tuner Pro to set your parameters, and I'm floored that you're not even considering it. Round off your horsepower goals to 300, and remember you'd need a minimum of 38lb injectors at 80% DC to be safe. Lose the FMU and do it the right way.

- Rob

dana0330

I did contact EBL Flash and told them what I was doing, and they said they could not help.

dana0330

Is there a GM ecm with a map sensor that I can use that will plug in with minor modifications that can be tuned?

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

no

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

This is the only other way w/out breaking the bank while having full control of your engine. This is why I mentioned that the car in the video I posted for you ran on a Megasquirt and locked timing with boost, but you didn't read between the lines. That Camaro had locked timing due to it being MS1, but the link below below is for the MSII w/timing control. You need to do your research to make it work for you as I honestly don't support Megasquirt despite tuning a few of them. Just don't want to see you spending over two grand for a Holley ECU for absolutely no reason...

Good luck

- Rob
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https://www.diyautotune.com/product/...em-pcb3-0-kit/

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

wow which ones have you used and what happened? Holley is all anyone i know runs and we never had any problems