Rich or lean
#1
Rich or lean
I’ve tried to solve this problem för a long time now.
When cold the car starts fine but when hot it takes upp to 5 sec to start. I assumed that it was rich and tried to take out fuel by the crank fuel vs temp table with no effect. Coolant temp sensor reads fine.
Best way to start hot is to push the throttle to the floor for the first two sec and the let go. Worth mentioning is that two people with big knowledge about cars told me that it sounds rich during crank.
But adjusting the table above has no effect and part throttle during crank has no effect either.
Any ideas? Can I in the prom simulate the crank procedure mentioned above?
When cold the car starts fine but when hot it takes upp to 5 sec to start. I assumed that it was rich and tried to take out fuel by the crank fuel vs temp table with no effect. Coolant temp sensor reads fine.
Best way to start hot is to push the throttle to the floor for the first two sec and the let go. Worth mentioning is that two people with big knowledge about cars told me that it sounds rich during crank.
But adjusting the table above has no effect and part throttle during crank has no effect either.
Any ideas? Can I in the prom simulate the crank procedure mentioned above?
Last edited by frebor72; 05-15-2023 at 12:49 AM.
#2
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Car: '86MCSS
Engine: 396 .030"
Transmission: M20
Re: Rich or lean
Be nice to know what we're working on. '85-'88 w CSI, '89-'92 no CSI, TBI etc...
If enabling fuel cut-off by depressing the throttle to the floor allows your hot start, I'm wondering if you're getting un-metered fuel introduced.
If enabling fuel cut-off by depressing the throttle to the floor allows your hot start, I'm wondering if you're getting un-metered fuel introduced.
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SbFormula (05-15-2023)
#3
Re: Rich or lean
Sorry! 87 TPI with CSI removed. Regarding the unmetered fuel I agree. That has been the theory from the beginning. So I replaced all injectors and the CTS, removed the CSI and checked the hose from the FPR. It was dry. I've also tried different PROMs. Everything from stock to ARAP.. Always the same result. Thats why I was thinking It might be lean instead.
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SbFormula (05-15-2023)
#5
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Car: '91 Firebird Formula
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Transmission: Tremec T56
Axle/Gears: Moser 9" Eaton Truetrac Motive 3.89
Re: Rich or lean
UPDATED
For how long?
Do you have a datalog of your hot restart? It can give you a bit of information on what the ecm is seeing and doing.
When TPS is over 87% or so, on start-up, fuel gets cut off. So if it starts when you get the pedal to the metal, it is usually a sign of too much gas. Do you have a copy of your "Crank fuel vs temp" mods.
ECM needs to see 300rpm to activate injectors on cranking
Just shooting some info here trying to help.
For how long?
Do you have a datalog of your hot restart? It can give you a bit of information on what the ecm is seeing and doing.
When TPS is over 87% or so, on start-up, fuel gets cut off. So if it starts when you get the pedal to the metal, it is usually a sign of too much gas. Do you have a copy of your "Crank fuel vs temp" mods.
Just shooting some info here trying to help.
Last edited by SbFormula; 05-18-2023 at 05:17 AM.
#6
Moderator
Re: Rich or lean
Edit. Sorry didn't see you replaced the injectors already. Can you post your Crank fuel PW vs Coolant temp and Crank fuel PW multiplier vs ref pulse?
Last edited by IROCThe5.7L; 05-16-2023 at 04:05 PM.
#7
Re: Rich or lean
Trending Topics
#8
Re: Rich or lean
#9
Moderator
Re: Rich or lean
I'm not nearly as good as some of the people here. But I don't see anything out of the ordinary with your tables. People have had long crank issues having the crank fuel PW multiplier zeroed at the top. I have 1's from my 1-8 values. My car starts with 1-2 cranks hot and cold.
#11
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Car: '91 Firebird Formula
Engine: SP383 Deluxe FIRST® TPI Intake
Transmission: Tremec T56
Axle/Gears: Moser 9" Eaton Truetrac Motive 3.89
Re: Rich or lean
UPDATED
RE post #7
What BIN are these tables from? Is it OEM? ARHP?
Here's the sequence of events for $6E:
Key on, ecm activates fuel pump for 2 seconds;
Crank, ecm monitors DRP, activates fuel pump if DRP and will activate injectors once over 300rpm will stay in cranking routine until over 300rpm + some DRP, then declare engine running.
Tables involved: Crank Fuel PW vs Coolant * Crank Fuel PW Multiplier vs DRP * Crank Fuel PW Multiplier vs TPS%. (There is also a scalar involved in the calculation)
ECM fires injectors with fixed amount of msfor each DRP
During cranking, EST is not activated, so SA is initial SA, OEM = 6*
Looking at your table, "Crank Fuel PW vs Coolant" does not look right. What conversion is being used by your XDF? If you could post the X values without conversion that would help.
You were saying pedal to the floor was fixing the problem, so it points to too much fuel. But now you are talking about "long crank" in post #8. A long crank which fires-up without pedal to floor indicates not enough fuelor not enough starter power to turn engine over 300rpm.
Usually, tuners will add value to DRP 1-8 to help with long crank. By doing so, it will add more fuel. See post #10 @RBob
The 2 tables "Start-up bla bla.." you posted are not involved during cranking
Do you have original injectors?
RE post #7
What BIN are these tables from? Is it OEM? ARHP?
Here's the sequence of events for $6E:
Key on, ecm activates fuel pump for 2 seconds;
Crank, ecm monitors DRP, activates fuel pump if DRP and
Tables involved: Crank Fuel PW vs Coolant * Crank Fuel PW Multiplier vs DRP * Crank Fuel PW Multiplier vs TPS%. (There is also a scalar involved in the calculation)
ECM fires injectors with fixed amount of ms
During cranking, EST is not activated, so SA is initial SA, OEM = 6*
Looking at your table, "Crank Fuel PW vs Coolant" does not look right. What conversion is being used by your XDF? If you could post the X values without conversion that would help.
You were saying pedal to the floor was fixing the problem, so it points to too much fuel. But now you are talking about "long crank" in post #8. A long crank which fires-up without pedal to floor indicates not enough fuel
Usually, tuners will add value to DRP 1-8 to help with long crank. By doing so, it will add more fuel. See post #10 @RBob
The 2 tables "Start-up bla bla.." you posted are not involved during cranking
Do you have original injectors?
Last edited by SbFormula; 05-18-2023 at 05:17 AM.
#12
Re: Rich or lean
From APYM. I think the original bin is ACXS. When I bought the car it had a ADS Superchip which I removed.
I'm not sure what you mean by X-values but this is from the &6E XDF file. I removed the authors name
%%HEADER%%
001000 FileVers ="0.9"
001005 DefTitle ="89 165 ECM 6E And Stuff"
001007 DescSize =0x29
001006 Desc ="This is for 1227165 $6E (1989 F-Body and "
001010 Author =""
001030 BinSize =0x4000
001035 BaseOffset =0
001200 ADSAssoc =".\\6E.ads"
001225 ADSCheck =0x23AB0
001300 GenFlags =0x0
001325 ModeFlags =0x0
002000 Category0 ="Fuel"
002001 Category1 ="Spark"
002002 Category2 ="IAC"
002003 Category3 ="Fan"
002004 Category4 ="Idle"
002005 Category5 ="BLM"
002006 Category6 ="INT"
%%TABLE%%
000002 UniqueID =0xD4
040005 Title ="Crank Fuel PW Multiplier vs. Ref. Pulse"
040011 DescSize =0x1
040010 Desc =""
040100 Address =0x38B
040200 ZEq =0.003906 * X + 0.000000,TH|0|0|0|0|
040230 RangeLow =0.0000
040240 RangeHigh =255.0000
040300 Rows =0x18
040305 Cols =0x1
040320 XUnits ="Multiplier"
040325 YUnits ="Ref. Pulse"
040330 ZUnits =""
040350 XLabels =%
040352 XLabelType =0x4
040354 XEq =X,TH|0|0|0|0|
040360 YLabels = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24
040362 YLabelType =0x4
040364 YEq =X,TH|0|0|0|0|
040660 XAxisMin =1000.000000
040670 XAxisMax =1000.000000
040760 YAxisMin =1000.000000
040770 YAxisMax =1000.000000
%%END%%
%%TABLE%%
000002 UniqueID =0xD5
040005 Title ="Crank Fuel PW vs. Coolant Temp"
040011 DescSize =0x1
040010 Desc =""
040100 Address =0x373
040200 ZEq =0.781300 * X + 0.000000,TH|0|0|0|0|
040230 RangeLow =0.0000
040240 RangeHigh =255.0000
040300 Rows =0xE
040305 Cols =0x1
040320 XUnits ="PW(msec)"
040325 YUnits ="Deg F"
040330 ZUnits =""
040350 XLabels =%
040352 XLabelType =0x4
040354 XEq =X,TH|0|0|0|0|
040360 YLabels = -40, -18, 3, 25, 46, 68, 90, 111, 133, 154, 176, 198, 219, 241
040362 YLabelType =0x4
040364 YEq =X,TH|0|0|0|0|
040660 XAxisMin =1000.000000
040670 XAxisMax =1000.000000
040760 YAxisMin =1000.000000
040770 YAxisMax =1000.000000
%%END%%
%%TABLE%%
000002 UniqueID =0xD6
040005 Title ="Crank Fuel PW vs. TPS"
040011 DescSize =0x1
040010 Desc =""
040100 Address =0x382
040200 ZEq =0.015625 * X + 0.000000,TH|0|0|0|0|
040230 RangeLow =0.0000
040240 RangeHigh =255.0000
040300 Rows =0x9
040305 Cols =0x1
040320 XUnits ="Multiplier"
040325 YUnits ="% TPS"
040330 ZUnits =""
040350 XLabels =%
040352 XLabelType =0x4
040354 XEq =X,TH|0|0|0|0|
040360 YLabels = 0, 12.5, 25.0, 37.5, 50.0, 62.5, 75.0, 87.5, 100
040362 YLabelType =0x4
040364 YEq =X,TH|0|0|0|0|
040660 XAxisMin =1000.000000
040670 XAxisMax =1000.000000
040760 YAxisMin =1000.000000
040770 YAxisMax =1000.000000
%%END%%
%%TABLE%%
000002 UniqueID =0xD7
040005 Title ="Warm IAC Park Steps vs. Coolant"
040011 DescSize =0x1
040010 Desc =""
040100 Address =0x588
040200 ZEq =1.000000 * X + 0.000000,TH|0|0|0|0|
040230 RangeLow =0.0000
040240 RangeHigh =255.0000
040300 Rows =0x9
040305 Cols =0x1
040320 XUnits ="steps"
040325 YUnits ="Deg F"
040330 ZUnits =""
040350 XLabels =%
040352 XLabelType =0x4
040354 XEq =X,TH|0|0|0|0|
040360 YLabels = -40, 3, 46, 90, 133, 176, 219, 262, 306
040362 YLabelType =0x4
040364 YEq =X,TH|0|0|0|0|
040660 XAxisMin =1000.000000
040670 XAxisMax =1000.000000
040760 YAxisMin =1000.000000
040770 YAxisMax =1000.000000
%%END%%
I'm not sure what you mean by X-values but this is from the &6E XDF file. I removed the authors name
%%HEADER%%
001000 FileVers ="0.9"
001005 DefTitle ="89 165 ECM 6E And Stuff"
001007 DescSize =0x29
001006 Desc ="This is for 1227165 $6E (1989 F-Body and "
001010 Author =""
001030 BinSize =0x4000
001035 BaseOffset =0
001200 ADSAssoc =".\\6E.ads"
001225 ADSCheck =0x23AB0
001300 GenFlags =0x0
001325 ModeFlags =0x0
002000 Category0 ="Fuel"
002001 Category1 ="Spark"
002002 Category2 ="IAC"
002003 Category3 ="Fan"
002004 Category4 ="Idle"
002005 Category5 ="BLM"
002006 Category6 ="INT"
%%TABLE%%
000002 UniqueID =0xD4
040005 Title ="Crank Fuel PW Multiplier vs. Ref. Pulse"
040011 DescSize =0x1
040010 Desc =""
040100 Address =0x38B
040200 ZEq =0.003906 * X + 0.000000,TH|0|0|0|0|
040230 RangeLow =0.0000
040240 RangeHigh =255.0000
040300 Rows =0x18
040305 Cols =0x1
040320 XUnits ="Multiplier"
040325 YUnits ="Ref. Pulse"
040330 ZUnits =""
040350 XLabels =%
040352 XLabelType =0x4
040354 XEq =X,TH|0|0|0|0|
040360 YLabels = 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24
040362 YLabelType =0x4
040364 YEq =X,TH|0|0|0|0|
040660 XAxisMin =1000.000000
040670 XAxisMax =1000.000000
040760 YAxisMin =1000.000000
040770 YAxisMax =1000.000000
%%END%%
%%TABLE%%
000002 UniqueID =0xD5
040005 Title ="Crank Fuel PW vs. Coolant Temp"
040011 DescSize =0x1
040010 Desc =""
040100 Address =0x373
040200 ZEq =0.781300 * X + 0.000000,TH|0|0|0|0|
040230 RangeLow =0.0000
040240 RangeHigh =255.0000
040300 Rows =0xE
040305 Cols =0x1
040320 XUnits ="PW(msec)"
040325 YUnits ="Deg F"
040330 ZUnits =""
040350 XLabels =%
040352 XLabelType =0x4
040354 XEq =X,TH|0|0|0|0|
040360 YLabels = -40, -18, 3, 25, 46, 68, 90, 111, 133, 154, 176, 198, 219, 241
040362 YLabelType =0x4
040364 YEq =X,TH|0|0|0|0|
040660 XAxisMin =1000.000000
040670 XAxisMax =1000.000000
040760 YAxisMin =1000.000000
040770 YAxisMax =1000.000000
%%END%%
%%TABLE%%
000002 UniqueID =0xD6
040005 Title ="Crank Fuel PW vs. TPS"
040011 DescSize =0x1
040010 Desc =""
040100 Address =0x382
040200 ZEq =0.015625 * X + 0.000000,TH|0|0|0|0|
040230 RangeLow =0.0000
040240 RangeHigh =255.0000
040300 Rows =0x9
040305 Cols =0x1
040320 XUnits ="Multiplier"
040325 YUnits ="% TPS"
040330 ZUnits =""
040350 XLabels =%
040352 XLabelType =0x4
040354 XEq =X,TH|0|0|0|0|
040360 YLabels = 0, 12.5, 25.0, 37.5, 50.0, 62.5, 75.0, 87.5, 100
040362 YLabelType =0x4
040364 YEq =X,TH|0|0|0|0|
040660 XAxisMin =1000.000000
040670 XAxisMax =1000.000000
040760 YAxisMin =1000.000000
040770 YAxisMax =1000.000000
%%END%%
%%TABLE%%
000002 UniqueID =0xD7
040005 Title ="Warm IAC Park Steps vs. Coolant"
040011 DescSize =0x1
040010 Desc =""
040100 Address =0x588
040200 ZEq =1.000000 * X + 0.000000,TH|0|0|0|0|
040230 RangeLow =0.0000
040240 RangeHigh =255.0000
040300 Rows =0x9
040305 Cols =0x1
040320 XUnits ="steps"
040325 YUnits ="Deg F"
040330 ZUnits =""
040350 XLabels =%
040352 XLabelType =0x4
040354 XEq =X,TH|0|0|0|0|
040360 YLabels = -40, 3, 46, 90, 133, 176, 219, 262, 306
040362 YLabelType =0x4
040364 YEq =X,TH|0|0|0|0|
040660 XAxisMin =1000.000000
040670 XAxisMax =1000.000000
040760 YAxisMin =1000.000000
040770 YAxisMax =1000.000000
%%END%%
#13
#14
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Car: '91 Firebird Formula
Engine: SP383 Deluxe FIRST® TPI Intake
Transmission: Tremec T56
Axle/Gears: Moser 9" Eaton Truetrac Motive 3.89
Re: Rich or lean
From APYM. I think the original bin is ACXS. When I bought the car it had a ADS Superchip which I removed.
I'm not sure what you mean by X-values but this is from the &6E XDF file. I removed the authors name
%%TABLE%%
000002 UniqueID =0xD5
040005 Title ="Crank Fuel PW vs. Coolant Temp"
040011 DescSize =0x1
040010 Desc =""
040100 Address =0x373
040200 ZEq =0.781300 * X + 0.000000,TH|0|0|0|0|
I'm not sure what you mean by X-values but this is from the &6E XDF file. I removed the authors name
%%TABLE%%
000002 UniqueID =0xD5
040005 Title ="Crank Fuel PW vs. Coolant Temp"
040011 DescSize =0x1
040010 Desc =""
040100 Address =0x373
040200 ZEq =0.781300 * X + 0.000000,TH|0|0|0|0|
For table "Crank Fuel PW vs. Coolant Temp", I believe the right formula is 0.200004878 * X + 0.000000. Nonetheless, if you enter "X" in conversion instead of "0.781300 * X + 0.000000", you will get a non converted value. For APYM, I get:
-40_179.00
-18_179.00
3_77.00
25_41.00
46_34.00
68_21.00
90_17.00
111_14.00
133_14.00
154_14.00
176_14.00
198_14.00
219_14.00
241_14.00
You seem to have:
-40_179.00
-18_179.00
3_77.00
25_41.00
46_34.00
68_15.00
90_10.00
111_6.00
133_6.00
154_6.00
176_4.00
198_4.00
219_4.00
241_4.00
Also,
APYM has:
So it looks like what ever modified version of APYM you have, it has reduced cranking fuel delivery.
My advise: If you have all original set-up, with OEM fuel pressure and injectors style, I would bring APYM back to original settings to start with.
I've had issues with weak battery which resulted in long cranking. I can't explain it other than it appeared while cranking the voltage was getting in low 9s high 8s volts. Engine rpm was flat at 200 rpm. Engine would not fire-up for 6 seconds of cranking. Once engine would reach mid 200 rpm with high 9s voltage, it would fire-up. Issue was present only when car had been sitting for a few days. Changed the battery and problem went away. Installed a on board battery charger. Car is now plugged whenever it sits. Never had the issue after. My only conclusion is, low voltage affected injectors or engine rpm was too low while cranking. But I can not verify that with certitude.
I have attached an OEM version of APYM
Hope this helps
Last edited by SbFormula; 05-18-2023 at 06:00 AM.
#15
Re: Rich or lean
I updated post #5 and 7 based on @RBob clarifications. He is always a great source of knowledge.
For table "Crank Fuel PW vs. Coolant Temp", I believe the right formula is 0.200004878 * X + 0.000000. Nonetheless, if you enter "X" in conversion instead of "0.781300 * X + 0.000000", you will get a non converted value. For APYM, I get:
-40_179.00
-18_179.00
3_77.00
25_41.00
46_34.00
68_21.00
90_17.00
111_14.00
133_14.00
154_14.00
176_14.00
198_14.00
219_14.00
241_14.00
You seem to have:
-40_179.00
-18_179.00
3_77.00
25_41.00
46_34.00
68_15.00
90_10.00
111_6.00
133_6.00
154_6.00
176_4.00
198_4.00
219_4.00
241_4.00
Also,
APYM has:
So it looks like what ever modified version of APYM you have, it has reduced cranking fuel delivery.
My advise: If you have all original set-up, with OEM fuel pressure and injectors style, I would bring APYM back to original settings to start with.
I've had issues with weak battery which resulted in long cranking. I can't explain it other than it appeared while cranking the voltage was getting in low 9s high 8s volts. Engine rpm was flat at 200 rpm. Engine would not fire-up for 6 seconds of cranking. Once engine would reach mid 200 rpm with high 9s voltage, it would fire-up. Issue was present only when car had been sitting for a few days. Changed the battery and problem went away. Installed a on board battery charger. Car is now plugged whenever it sits. Never had the issue after. My only conclusion is, low voltage affected injectors or engine rpm was too low while cranking. But I can not verify that with certitude.
I have attached an OEM version of APYM
Hope this helps
For table "Crank Fuel PW vs. Coolant Temp", I believe the right formula is 0.200004878 * X + 0.000000. Nonetheless, if you enter "X" in conversion instead of "0.781300 * X + 0.000000", you will get a non converted value. For APYM, I get:
-40_179.00
-18_179.00
3_77.00
25_41.00
46_34.00
68_21.00
90_17.00
111_14.00
133_14.00
154_14.00
176_14.00
198_14.00
219_14.00
241_14.00
You seem to have:
-40_179.00
-18_179.00
3_77.00
25_41.00
46_34.00
68_15.00
90_10.00
111_6.00
133_6.00
154_6.00
176_4.00
198_4.00
219_4.00
241_4.00
Also,
APYM has:
So it looks like what ever modified version of APYM you have, it has reduced cranking fuel delivery.
My advise: If you have all original set-up, with OEM fuel pressure and injectors style, I would bring APYM back to original settings to start with.
I've had issues with weak battery which resulted in long cranking. I can't explain it other than it appeared while cranking the voltage was getting in low 9s high 8s volts. Engine rpm was flat at 200 rpm. Engine would not fire-up for 6 seconds of cranking. Once engine would reach mid 200 rpm with high 9s voltage, it would fire-up. Issue was present only when car had been sitting for a few days. Changed the battery and problem went away. Installed a on board battery charger. Car is now plugged whenever it sits. Never had the issue after. My only conclusion is, low voltage affected injectors or engine rpm was too low while cranking. But I can not verify that with certitude.
I have attached an OEM version of APYM
Hope this helps
But the correct value seems quite a bit lower than in my file
#16
Supreme Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
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Car: '91 Firebird Formula
Engine: SP383 Deluxe FIRST® TPI Intake
Transmission: Tremec T56
Axle/Gears: Moser 9" Eaton Truetrac Motive 3.89
Re: Rich or lean
In doubt, I always go back to non converted value or even HEX editor.
OEM APYM will work with OEM set-up. If anything was changed, sometimes you can get surprises.
Cheers
#17
Re: Rich or lean
Update
Since I replaced the injectors to Bosch II I changed the injector constant to 19. That keeps BLM at 128-131 in closed loop. Then I used the original Crank PW vs Ref pulses. 1.00 in all cells. It wouldn't start hot unless I give some throttle. I then tried the values from the Arap-code. A lot leaner. Now it only takes two seconds to start hot and with no throttle. Success! The first 8 ref pulse entrys are 0, as Rbob pointed out, so I figure I will try to move the values up in the table. All and all so much better. I really thank you all
Since I replaced the injectors to Bosch II I changed the injector constant to 19. That keeps BLM at 128-131 in closed loop. Then I used the original Crank PW vs Ref pulses. 1.00 in all cells. It wouldn't start hot unless I give some throttle. I then tried the values from the Arap-code. A lot leaner. Now it only takes two seconds to start hot and with no throttle. Success! The first 8 ref pulse entrys are 0, as Rbob pointed out, so I figure I will try to move the values up in the table. All and all so much better. I really thank you all
Last edited by frebor72; 05-21-2023 at 02:25 PM.
The following 2 users liked this post by frebor72:
IROCThe5.7L (05-24-2023), SbFormula (05-21-2023)
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