ignition tuning etc
03-09-2016, 03:43 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
ignition tuning etc
So,
I go this 1991 V6 camaro. wich is modified well.
Blueprinted and rebuild 3.4 engine.
with shaved heads
comp camp 264H cam
pacesetter headers, no EGR.
no cat
dynomax VT exhaust.
slightly ported and polished heads and intake.
3.4 injectors
180 degree thermostat
hawks thirdgen ramair intake
Rebuild TH700r4 with atp SK2 shift kit and extra cooler.
and ofcours a custom chip.
got a reader and a burner from moates and I use tunerpro.
atm the biggest changes I did was.
1) lower the fan on and off settings.
2) at a couple of degrees of idle timing to smooth at idle.
3) clean up the fuel tables so that it doesnt run sooty rich on odle...
anyway, the car runs suweet and feels very torqie from start.
so anyway, with all my mods it was time to do 0-60 timing.
from a dead stop we hit the brakes, gave it some gass to 1500rpm to torque convertor up to speed.
and off we went......
afterwards we looked at our times and I put out a best time of 9.8 secs ........:-(
Ok I do have to admit that I have like 50 pounds of isolation in the car and an extra 50 pounds of LPG ( propane-buthane mix )......
yet, I have the feeling that I miss most power in 2nd gear. full throttle.
the engine is making noise and climbing in RPM, yet not as fast as I thought it would be.
when I do this Im running around 95kpa from 2800 up to 5200 rpm no knocks
timing of the stock chip is around 20 to 22 degrees in this range.
Should I ad more timing in these regions?
in third you also feel the lack of power, yet the chance I go half throttle is bigger since by then Im already going 65+ mph. yet the car climbs without any problems to 100+mph with only 1/3th throttle used.
my uestion would be, what would be a good full throttle timing on these engines for a stock to slightly modified V6?
( other mods on this V6 include
3th gen koni yellow front struts
4th gen koni yellow rear shocks
prothane motion master bushing kit.
rebuild 10 bolt with truetrac differential
I go this 1991 V6 camaro. wich is modified well.
Blueprinted and rebuild 3.4 engine.
with shaved heads
comp camp 264H cam
pacesetter headers, no EGR.
no cat
dynomax VT exhaust.
slightly ported and polished heads and intake.
3.4 injectors
180 degree thermostat
hawks thirdgen ramair intake
Rebuild TH700r4 with atp SK2 shift kit and extra cooler.
and ofcours a custom chip.
got a reader and a burner from moates and I use tunerpro.
atm the biggest changes I did was.
1) lower the fan on and off settings.
2) at a couple of degrees of idle timing to smooth at idle.
3) clean up the fuel tables so that it doesnt run sooty rich on odle...
anyway, the car runs suweet and feels very torqie from start.
so anyway, with all my mods it was time to do 0-60 timing.
from a dead stop we hit the brakes, gave it some gass to 1500rpm to torque convertor up to speed.
and off we went......
afterwards we looked at our times and I put out a best time of 9.8 secs ........:-(
Ok I do have to admit that I have like 50 pounds of isolation in the car and an extra 50 pounds of LPG ( propane-buthane mix )......
yet, I have the feeling that I miss most power in 2nd gear. full throttle.
the engine is making noise and climbing in RPM, yet not as fast as I thought it would be.
when I do this Im running around 95kpa from 2800 up to 5200 rpm no knocks
timing of the stock chip is around 20 to 22 degrees in this range.
Should I ad more timing in these regions?
in third you also feel the lack of power, yet the chance I go half throttle is bigger since by then Im already going 65+ mph. yet the car climbs without any problems to 100+mph with only 1/3th throttle used.
my uestion would be, what would be a good full throttle timing on these engines for a stock to slightly modified V6?
( other mods on this V6 include
3th gen koni yellow front struts
4th gen koni yellow rear shocks
prothane motion master bushing kit.
rebuild 10 bolt with truetrac differential
03-11-2016, 09:27 AM
#3
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Re: ignition tuning etc
It is something that you need to try. The octane of the fuel will have a heavy influence on how much total SA at WOT the engine will want.
If the heads are the iron ones they do tend to ping with too much SA. Can use that to help decide how much SA the engine can use.
RBob.
If the heads are the iron ones they do tend to ping with too much SA. Can use that to help decide how much SA the engine can use.
RBob.
03-11-2016, 10:05 AM
#4
Member
Thread Starter
Re: ignition tuning etc
Stock iron heads.
92 octone on gasoline.
103 octane on LPG.
i wrote a new chip with the extra timing up high added.
still need to datalog it tough.
92 octone on gasoline.
103 octane on LPG.
i wrote a new chip with the extra timing up high added.
still need to datalog it tough.
03-28-2016, 11:43 AM
#5
Member
Thread Starter
Re: ignition tuning etc
ok, I'm now bussy with cleaning up my timing,
Yet sometimes I'm seeying a wee little knock.
but the problem is,
lets say on WOT @3350 and KPA 91 I got 26 degrees of advance in my chip.
yet, when I run the car I see @ 1 point that i get 1 knock and 2 degrees of knock retard.
when I pauze my log at that knock, my timing is 29 degrees.
now my question is, where is those 3 degrees of extra timing coming from...
I included my bin+ logfile in the zip.
20160328 cleaner timing part 1.kpa.zip
any help would be appreciated....
Yet sometimes I'm seeying a wee little knock.
but the problem is,
lets say on WOT @3350 and KPA 91 I got 26 degrees of advance in my chip.
yet, when I run the car I see @ 1 point that i get 1 knock and 2 degrees of knock retard.
when I pauze my log at that knock, my timing is 29 degrees.
now my question is, where is those 3 degrees of extra timing coming from...
I included my bin+ logfile in the zip.
20160328 cleaner timing part 1.kpa.zip
any help would be appreciated....
03-28-2016, 12:45 PM
#6
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Re: ignition tuning etc
PE SA?
RBob.
Code:
; -------------------------------------- ; ; PE spark, by delta afr from 14.7 ; ; -------------------------------------- ;----------------------------- ; ; SA ; AFR ;----------------------------- L8218 FCB 0 ; 14.7 0 deg FCB 6 ; 13.1 2.1 deg FCB 6 ; 11.5 FCB 6 ; 9.9
03-28-2016, 01:22 PM
#7
Member
Thread Starter
Re: ignition tuning etc
Yes, I know what you mean, but it just doesnt ad up in total spark time.
almost forgot,
engine is a blueprinted 3.4 V6 dressed up as a 91 3.1. $88 code
$88-V3.zip
comp cams 260H cam
pacesetter headers ( small exhaust leak where the EGR used to be )
airpump delete
Hawks ramair intake.
ported and polished intake
reason im poking around with timing is because even with all the mods I did, my car still aint breaking the 10 second barrier.
I admit that its 100pounds heavyer do to insulation etc, but still....
almost forgot,
engine is a blueprinted 3.4 V6 dressed up as a 91 3.1. $88 code
$88-V3.zip
comp cams 260H cam
pacesetter headers ( small exhaust leak where the EGR used to be )
airpump delete
Hawks ramair intake.
ported and polished intake
reason im poking around with timing is because even with all the mods I did, my car still aint breaking the 10 second barrier.
I admit that its 100pounds heavyer do to insulation etc, but still....
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03-29-2016, 02:14 PM
#8
Member
Thread Starter
Re: ignition tuning etc
well I did a test run today and except 1 knock during warmup, I didnt get any knock on the whole trip.
this was a trip with some cruising and some 0-60 pulls and even some 50-90mph pulls.
I also did some timing runs.
first 1 was in februari with 2 degrees of extra timing up in the high KPA range ( full throttle )
0-60mph in 9,8 secs.....almost no better then stock ( altough take note that my complete car is raammatted and I carry a 50L of liquid gas in my trunk. so my car is definatly heavyer over stock.
the run today gave me a 0-60mph in 9,5secs
this was a trip with some cruising and some 0-60 pulls and even some 50-90mph pulls.
I also did some timing runs.
first 1 was in februari with 2 degrees of extra timing up in the high KPA range ( full throttle )
0-60mph in 9,8 secs.....almost no better then stock ( altough take note that my complete car is raammatted and I carry a 50L of liquid gas in my trunk. so my car is definatly heavyer over stock.
the run today gave me a 0-60mph in 9,5secs
03-29-2016, 03:20 PM
#9
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Car: 1991 Camaro RS
Engine: BBC 509 Merlin ii 9.6:1 pump gas
Transmission: ATI pro th350 sfi case. TSI 5500 st
Axle/Gears: Strange S60 4:10s
Re: ignition tuning etc
I run 21 degrees of timing on my Turboed V6..... now I do have alluminum heads now but I remember running 20 degrees at 15psi or so on my old iron heads and never did I see KR unless i was lean or it was false KR.
I have to ask how are you reading back you air fuel ratio?? Are you just looking at the mv of the narrow band o2 sensor??
I remember back when i cammed my 3.1 and heavly ported and polished the heads. Way rich down low... and way lean up top. Exspecially in the meat area of 3000-5000rpm where it actuallly made some decent power. It was terribly lean there from the stock tune with my modifications... It cause tons of KR and thankfully it was still a weak engine and never harmed anything. Of course I then changed the fueling to help it out.
But back to the total timing... I wouldnt think anyless then 24-28 degrees would be too much on your set up giving that the fueling is good and causing a proper afr ratio. Of course this is just a number and will have to be tested. Once you have control of the aft you can start at 23 or so timing and add a small amount at a time untill you see kr when the afrs are 12.5 or so, then take about 1 degree back out./
So my main question is with your problems is what is your afr ratio durring WOT or what is you MV narrowband readings?
I have to ask how are you reading back you air fuel ratio?? Are you just looking at the mv of the narrow band o2 sensor??
I remember back when i cammed my 3.1 and heavly ported and polished the heads. Way rich down low... and way lean up top. Exspecially in the meat area of 3000-5000rpm where it actuallly made some decent power. It was terribly lean there from the stock tune with my modifications... It cause tons of KR and thankfully it was still a weak engine and never harmed anything. Of course I then changed the fueling to help it out.
But back to the total timing... I wouldnt think anyless then 24-28 degrees would be too much on your set up giving that the fueling is good and causing a proper afr ratio. Of course this is just a number and will have to be tested. Once you have control of the aft you can start at 23 or so timing and add a small amount at a time untill you see kr when the afrs are 12.5 or so, then take about 1 degree back out./
So my main question is with your problems is what is your afr ratio durring WOT or what is you MV narrowband readings?
Last edited by fasteddi; 03-29-2016 at 03:25 PM.
03-29-2016, 03:29 PM
#10
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Car: 1991 Camaro RS
Engine: BBC 509 Merlin ii 9.6:1 pump gas
Transmission: ATI pro th350 sfi case. TSI 5500 st
Axle/Gears: Strange S60 4:10s
Re: ignition tuning etc
If you can, watch this vid is is my 0-60 time. Only mods are some damm heavy ported heads and a delta 260 cam and a cat back exhaust. The tune though was dialed in i remember that... and yes the speedo is dead on. Stock gears tire size exc. roughly 8-9 seconds 0-60mph as a guess.....
03-31-2016, 12:48 PM
#11
Member
Thread Starter
Re: ignition tuning etc
I run 21 degrees of timing on my Turboed V6..... now I do have alluminum heads now but I remember running 20 degrees at 15psi or so on my old iron heads and never did I see KR unless i was lean or it was false KR.
I have to ask how are you reading back you air fuel ratio?? Are you just looking at the mv of the narrow band o2 sensor??
at this moment I look in the data history tables and under 2500 rpm if I see to much fuel I lean it out through a formula I found somewhere on this forum. works pretty well on the lower RPM, still smokes a lot on the higher RPMs
I remember back when i cammed my 3.1 and heavly ported and polished the heads. Way rich down low... and way lean up top. Exspecially in the meat area of 3000-5000rpm where it actuallly made some decent power. It was terribly lean there from the stock tune with my modifications... It cause tons of KR and thankfully it was still a weak engine and never harmed anything. Of course I then changed the fueling to help it out.
I do run the 3.4 injectors tough, dont know if its a big upgrade over stock 3.1 injectors
But back to the total timing... I wouldnt think anyless then 24-28 degrees would be too much on your set up giving that the fueling is good and causing a proper afr ratio. Of course this is just a number and will have to be tested. Once you have control of the aft you can start at 23 or so timing and add a small amount at a time untill you see kr when the afrs are 12.5 or so, then take about 1 degree back out./
at this moment I got this.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/atta...1&d=1459446246
as you can see I uppened the timing above 2000 rpm.
starting at 20 degrees going up to 27 degrees above 4800rpm
So my main question is with your problems is what is your afr ratio durring WOT or what is you MV narrowband readings?
I will need to check in my latest datalogging, I did some pulls in there
what did you have to do to go from narrowband to wideband o2 sensor ?
is it hard to do? or is it just plug and play ?
I have to ask how are you reading back you air fuel ratio?? Are you just looking at the mv of the narrow band o2 sensor??
at this moment I look in the data history tables and under 2500 rpm if I see to much fuel I lean it out through a formula I found somewhere on this forum. works pretty well on the lower RPM, still smokes a lot on the higher RPMs
I remember back when i cammed my 3.1 and heavly ported and polished the heads. Way rich down low... and way lean up top. Exspecially in the meat area of 3000-5000rpm where it actuallly made some decent power. It was terribly lean there from the stock tune with my modifications... It cause tons of KR and thankfully it was still a weak engine and never harmed anything. Of course I then changed the fueling to help it out.
I do run the 3.4 injectors tough, dont know if its a big upgrade over stock 3.1 injectors
But back to the total timing... I wouldnt think anyless then 24-28 degrees would be too much on your set up giving that the fueling is good and causing a proper afr ratio. Of course this is just a number and will have to be tested. Once you have control of the aft you can start at 23 or so timing and add a small amount at a time untill you see kr when the afrs are 12.5 or so, then take about 1 degree back out./
at this moment I got this.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/atta...1&d=1459446246
as you can see I uppened the timing above 2000 rpm.
starting at 20 degrees going up to 27 degrees above 4800rpm
So my main question is with your problems is what is your afr ratio durring WOT or what is you MV narrowband readings?
I will need to check in my latest datalogging, I did some pulls in there
what did you have to do to go from narrowband to wideband o2 sensor ?
is it hard to do? or is it just plug and play ?
05-29-2016, 11:44 AM
#12
Member
Thread Starter
Re: ignition tuning etc
ok, an update, normally when my car goes over 50mph ( highway ) and I need to brake, my idle normally drops down to around 1200 rpm and goes lower when you come to a complete hold.
in my car, when i step on the brakes, sometimes the engine speed drops dramaticly fast to 600 rpm ( while till braking from 50+MPH. )
after wich the engines compensates and throws the enginespeed back to 1200.
the problem with this is that sometimes the car even wants to stall, making you Always drive with 1 foor on the brake and 1 on the gas in case of emergency. Not fun.
also the car seems to run better with the iac disconneced.
is there any way to limited the iac steps ?
I also got a problem where my idle sometimes seems to get stuck at around 1200 rpm ( or 900 rpm in drive )
only way to get around it is to set it in neutral, hit the gas and inmediatly brake.
anybody got an idea what is causing this
I have some logs,
freaky low idle 2 you can see the speed drop really quickly.
in idl relearn you can see that the speed just keeps hanging at around 1200 rpm at 35degrees spark advance.
? freaky low idle 2 .zip
in my car, when i step on the brakes, sometimes the engine speed drops dramaticly fast to 600 rpm ( while till braking from 50+MPH. )
after wich the engines compensates and throws the enginespeed back to 1200.
the problem with this is that sometimes the car even wants to stall, making you Always drive with 1 foor on the brake and 1 on the gas in case of emergency. Not fun.
also the car seems to run better with the iac disconneced.
is there any way to limited the iac steps ?
I also got a problem where my idle sometimes seems to get stuck at around 1200 rpm ( or 900 rpm in drive )
only way to get around it is to set it in neutral, hit the gas and inmediatly brake.
anybody got an idea what is causing this
I have some logs,
freaky low idle 2 you can see the speed drop really quickly.
in idl relearn you can see that the speed just keeps hanging at around 1200 rpm at 35degrees spark advance.
? freaky low idle 2 .zip