What percentage of people conquer DIY PROM chip burning?
12-12-2013, 11:31 PM
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What percentage of people conquer DIY PROM chip burning?
I feel like as I have researched this on several forums, I've seen a lot of threads that have just died with no apparent resolution. I see another thread down the page just a ways that looks like it's in danger of that:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...hand-prom.html
I am not at the stage in my life yet to where I can afford to do this as a hobby. Rather, I would like to do it as a means to save money. For example, I have a work truck that I would be more likely to keep for a few years (thereby postponing the expense of upgrading) if I could get it to the point that it could get out of it's own way. Most hardware upgrades would nearly require a new chip to be burned, so I'm trying to learn about burning and am on the edge of purchasing some stuff for it. I figured I would tune it as it is before doing any hardware stuff so that when I added hardware, I would be able to get it on the road reliably and quickly.
After seeing all these threads though, I'm having second thoughts. It just seems like a lot of guys have worked really hard and most likely just flat out failed at completing the process. So is that the most common outcome or do people usually work their way through it?
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...hand-prom.html
I am not at the stage in my life yet to where I can afford to do this as a hobby. Rather, I would like to do it as a means to save money. For example, I have a work truck that I would be more likely to keep for a few years (thereby postponing the expense of upgrading) if I could get it to the point that it could get out of it's own way. Most hardware upgrades would nearly require a new chip to be burned, so I'm trying to learn about burning and am on the edge of purchasing some stuff for it. I figured I would tune it as it is before doing any hardware stuff so that when I added hardware, I would be able to get it on the road reliably and quickly.
After seeing all these threads though, I'm having second thoughts. It just seems like a lot of guys have worked really hard and most likely just flat out failed at completing the process. So is that the most common outcome or do people usually work their way through it?
12-13-2013, 07:50 AM
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Car: 1993 Caprice wagon "Shammoo"
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Re: What percentage of people conquer DIY PROM chip burning?
Interesting question. I'm sure you'll find both ends of the spectrum here.
First off the vast majority of the motoring public doesn't have any comprehension of tuning and never will, or want to. they simply want to turn the key, and have it work under any condition.
In the long run , that's what we are trying to do as well, but with 400-600 horsepower and while burning rubber all the way to the corner, using products GM never put under the hood. The greater the mods , the greater the struggle to get them under control. Where as GM had engineers, Test tracks, and millions in budgets We are trying to do it with laptops and city streets. Kind of like comparing an army to a deer hunter.
It takes perseverance, years in some cases ( like mine) and I still don't consider that I'm any where near done. I'd suspect most here will also say the same, that they are not done either, but that doesn't mean the vehicle isn't drivable. Being we are a tinkering lot, there are many who seek, just a little bit "more", so we'll never be finished. At that point is it the performance or really the pursuit of knowledge that keeps us tinkering more?
If you get discouraged easily, forget it. It's not a project for the timid to take on. Go paint a bathroom wall instead. You'll still have have left on your head, actually even finish it, and get a lot less frustrated in the process.
It it were up to me, I'd make Rbob's line of EBL products the SEMA products of the year! There is no better place to start, than his products, support and the kinship of this august forum of incredibly dedicated leaders in the field.
But "tuning" as an opportunity to create savings of money in my opinion is not likely to happen. Increasing your fuel mileage is offset by the initial cost of "tuning hardware" whether it's an EBL system or goodies from Moates. Honestly ,and in all sincerity., if you want to spend less, (Cars being money pits will never allow you to "save") get a car with better mpg's.
From the forum pulpit,
Dave Buchholz
First off the vast majority of the motoring public doesn't have any comprehension of tuning and never will, or want to. they simply want to turn the key, and have it work under any condition.
In the long run , that's what we are trying to do as well, but with 400-600 horsepower and while burning rubber all the way to the corner, using products GM never put under the hood. The greater the mods , the greater the struggle to get them under control. Where as GM had engineers, Test tracks, and millions in budgets We are trying to do it with laptops and city streets. Kind of like comparing an army to a deer hunter.
It takes perseverance, years in some cases ( like mine) and I still don't consider that I'm any where near done. I'd suspect most here will also say the same, that they are not done either, but that doesn't mean the vehicle isn't drivable. Being we are a tinkering lot, there are many who seek, just a little bit "more", so we'll never be finished. At that point is it the performance or really the pursuit of knowledge that keeps us tinkering more?
If you get discouraged easily, forget it. It's not a project for the timid to take on. Go paint a bathroom wall instead. You'll still have have left on your head, actually even finish it, and get a lot less frustrated in the process.
It it were up to me, I'd make Rbob's line of EBL products the SEMA products of the year! There is no better place to start, than his products, support and the kinship of this august forum of incredibly dedicated leaders in the field.
But "tuning" as an opportunity to create savings of money in my opinion is not likely to happen. Increasing your fuel mileage is offset by the initial cost of "tuning hardware" whether it's an EBL system or goodies from Moates. Honestly ,and in all sincerity., if you want to spend less, (Cars being money pits will never allow you to "save") get a car with better mpg's.
From the forum pulpit,
Dave Buchholz
Last edited by lakeffect2; 12-13-2013 at 09:46 AM.
12-13-2013, 08:16 AM
#3
Re: What percentage of people conquer DIY PROM chip burning?
Depends on how wild you are over stock and how picky you are in the tune. I know some guys complain about the smallest quirks in driveability on their big cam setup and i kinda laugh thinkin what did you expect? Its not gonna drive stock or idle stock.
If you understand how and engine works you will understand tuning because you wil know what the engine is asking for and how to give it what it wants.
I dont consider any of my previous stuff to be perfect but they all ran good. Good enough for me.
If you have strict emissions and such, tunin to comply with smog may be an extreme headache. Talk to kevin91z from the california boards on that, as they have wild setups passing the strictest smog laws
You have to be willing to put in time and think clearly. Sometimes things dont go smoothly and you need to think of why it isnt working and always double check mechanical or electrical issues. If those are fine then tuning should go as planned without hiccups.
Siftin through the many threads here, you can find excellet information but you need to dig deep and read many times over before it all sinks in. Its a big undertaking and intimidating but stick with it and you will be fine.
It helps to learn on stockish motors first to get familiar with parameters before jumping into a built motor
If you understand how and engine works you will understand tuning because you wil know what the engine is asking for and how to give it what it wants.
I dont consider any of my previous stuff to be perfect but they all ran good. Good enough for me.
If you have strict emissions and such, tunin to comply with smog may be an extreme headache. Talk to kevin91z from the california boards on that, as they have wild setups passing the strictest smog laws
You have to be willing to put in time and think clearly. Sometimes things dont go smoothly and you need to think of why it isnt working and always double check mechanical or electrical issues. If those are fine then tuning should go as planned without hiccups.
Siftin through the many threads here, you can find excellet information but you need to dig deep and read many times over before it all sinks in. Its a big undertaking and intimidating but stick with it and you will be fine.
It helps to learn on stockish motors first to get familiar with parameters before jumping into a built motor
12-13-2013, 01:15 PM
#4
Re: What percentage of people conquer DIY PROM chip burning?
So my question to you, do you know of any good books that explain the details of engine tuning in various situations? I know the very basics, but this information just isnt really out there. It seems to be kind of hoarded. I've already bought a couple of books I thought would go into it... but they didnt at all.
Like learning to read plugs... it's never covered anywhere, you just have the occasional expert show up and say this plug indicates [huge list of engine tune characteristics] and briefly mentions why, but it's never truly explained. I would imagine even with EFI setups and widebands and knock sensors etc, reading the plugs is still a very good idea.
12-13-2013, 01:21 PM
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Re: What percentage of people conquer DIY PROM chip burning?
Thanks. I guess I am not expecting measurable savings from gas mileage. I want more power than I have. Thinking of upgrading to a pickup with an 8.1 in it so I can accomplish the tasks I need to accomplish at more than a snails pace.
If I were to postpone buying a $12,000 truck for 5 years, and just stick with my 93 K3500 with a 7.4, that may have some value to me. I thought I could put headers on it, put an RV cam on it and switch it to dual exhaust and then tune it and I would be able to get maybe another 5 years out of it.
If I'm going to have to study for a year to get a driveable tune, I either have to bill myself for the time spent studying or I need to consider it a hobby. I love that kind of hobby, but I have other obligations on my time and need to manage it responsibly. Therefore, in this instance, because my hobby time is spoken for with other stuff, I think I need to bill myself for my time. If I'm studying for 3 hours a week for a year, that cuts in to the amount that I would save vs a newer truck considerably.
Realistically, my truck will likely be down for maintenance regularly as I learn and so I may need another one anyway during that learning time period.
The only remaining justification I can provide for myself to pursue this is that skills are valuable. The tuning I learn here will help me get the most out of other vehicles in the future. That intangible thing does likely leave me some room to pursue it, but it seems to be something I need to carefully consider before diving in.
Anyway, thanks for the thoughts. I'm just trying to talk myself into or out of this. I want to have realistic expectations so I don't give up before I see results which would be a colossal waste of time and money.
If I were to postpone buying a $12,000 truck for 5 years, and just stick with my 93 K3500 with a 7.4, that may have some value to me. I thought I could put headers on it, put an RV cam on it and switch it to dual exhaust and then tune it and I would be able to get maybe another 5 years out of it.
If I'm going to have to study for a year to get a driveable tune, I either have to bill myself for the time spent studying or I need to consider it a hobby. I love that kind of hobby, but I have other obligations on my time and need to manage it responsibly. Therefore, in this instance, because my hobby time is spoken for with other stuff, I think I need to bill myself for my time. If I'm studying for 3 hours a week for a year, that cuts in to the amount that I would save vs a newer truck considerably.
Realistically, my truck will likely be down for maintenance regularly as I learn and so I may need another one anyway during that learning time period.
The only remaining justification I can provide for myself to pursue this is that skills are valuable. The tuning I learn here will help me get the most out of other vehicles in the future. That intangible thing does likely leave me some room to pursue it, but it seems to be something I need to carefully consider before diving in.
Anyway, thanks for the thoughts. I'm just trying to talk myself into or out of this. I want to have realistic expectations so I don't give up before I see results which would be a colossal waste of time and money.
12-13-2013, 01:58 PM
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Re: What percentage of people conquer DIY PROM chip burning?
If you use an EBL and read through the tuning guide on the dynamicefi website and your setups mostly stock and your not completely clueless when it comes to motors and how they work and using a laptop you can have a driveable tune in less then a few hours of driving with the EBL's VE learn feature. It won't be 100% perfect but for most people it should be good enough to daily drive.
12-16-2013, 07:57 AM
#7
Re: What percentage of people conquer DIY PROM chip burning?
So my question to you, do you know of any good books that explain the details of engine tuning in various situations? I know the very basics, but this information just isnt really out there. It seems to be kind of hoarded. I've already bought a couple of books I thought would go into it... but they didnt at all.
Like learning to read plugs... it's never covered anywhere, you just have the occasional expert show up and say this plug indicates [huge list of engine tune characteristics] and briefly mentions why, but it's never truly explained. I would imagine even with EFI setups and widebands and knock sensors etc, reading the plugs is still a very good idea.
Like learning to read plugs... it's never covered anywhere, you just have the occasional expert show up and say this plug indicates [huge list of engine tune characteristics] and briefly mentions why, but it's never truly explained. I would imagine even with EFI setups and widebands and knock sensors etc, reading the plugs is still a very good idea.
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12-18-2013, 08:14 PM
#8
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Re: What percentage of people conquer DIY PROM chip burning?
Most hardware upgrades would nearly require a new chip to be burned, so I'm trying to learn about burning and am on the edge of purchasing some stuff for it. I figured I would tune it as it is before doing any hardware stuff so that when I added hardware, I would be able to get it on the road reliably and quickly.
After seeing all these threads though, I'm having second thoughts. It just seems like a lot of guys have worked really hard and most likely just flat out failed at completing the process. So is that the most common outcome or do people usually work their way through it?
After seeing all these threads though, I'm having second thoughts. It just seems like a lot of guys have worked really hard and most likely just flat out failed at completing the process. So is that the most common outcome or do people usually work their way through it?
- Change Fan on/off temps
- Change idle RPM parameters
- Set when WOT is invoked based on TPS%
- Set auto trans converter lock/unlock MPH, if applicable, etc, etc.
Also buy a ZIF socket for your ECM (this includes 2 chips you can burn). The ZIF socket will allow the AutoProm cable to be easily attached or will allow a burned chip to be easlily inserted for use by the ECM. And most important of all that most fail or refuse to do -- keep a log of every (Note: EVERY) change you make (best is a Word file with bin version numbers/date and detailed description of exactly what was changed).
With the above, you are in total control and can do anythiing you want! When you finally feel you're dialed in, burn a chip, put it in the ECM ZIF socket in place of the AutoProm cable.
12-23-2013, 07:44 PM
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Re: What percentage of people conquer DIY PROM chip burning?
First things to do is dial in the fuel tables. this can mostly be done in a afternoon to get it pretty close and then further dialed in in datalogs and such. In the time i have been tuning (about a year and a half) i have never had my car out of commission due to tuning. Just start with a stock bin for your application and start with small changes and as you get more comfortable you can further research new parameters and expand your tuning.
On a side note, Tunerpro RT v5 will automatically make a change log for each bin you create
On a side note, Tunerpro RT v5 will automatically make a change log for each bin you create
12-27-2013, 08:47 AM
#10
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Re: What percentage of people conquer DIY PROM chip burning?
Here is my take on this. I tend to agree with what 84Elky said. There is so much more you can do in the chip bin than just get the tune dialed in. Like say you change to a lower thermostat, then you change the fan turn-on temps. Or change the rear gears, and you need to change the TCC lockup parameters. Or to save gas, you can mess with highway mode, which is a lean cruise mode. If your ride is totally stock, then you wont likely see big improvements. But a good place to start, as you make changes, can adjust things in the PROM to accommodate.
One example for me, a while ago i had a good tune on my IROC, but when i added headers, things changed quite a bit, and i needed to adjust the fueling to account for the increased airflow. Is my tune perfect, not likely since i am certainly no engine expert, but if i had the time and gas $$, i would just go out and test and tune, and burn chips all day long. I am continuously learning, year after year, and will never stop.
Dont get discouraged by a few posts here, that look like they are giving up. Some folks just want the experts to fix their ride for them. After all, this is a DIY PROM board. Read all the posts, search, read the stickys, and you will get it. Lots of good info here.
Good luck
One example for me, a while ago i had a good tune on my IROC, but when i added headers, things changed quite a bit, and i needed to adjust the fueling to account for the increased airflow. Is my tune perfect, not likely since i am certainly no engine expert, but if i had the time and gas $$, i would just go out and test and tune, and burn chips all day long. I am continuously learning, year after year, and will never stop.
Dont get discouraged by a few posts here, that look like they are giving up. Some folks just want the experts to fix their ride for them. After all, this is a DIY PROM board. Read all the posts, search, read the stickys, and you will get it. Lots of good info here.
Good luck
12-29-2013, 12:16 AM
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Re: What percentage of people conquer DIY PROM chip burning?
dpilot83 .... That's my thread. I assure you it's not going to go unresolved. There's a multitude of reasons why my thread went on the back burner.
1) It's winter and I don't drive my car in the snow. I'm in the midwest. Too much salt and other crap that will eat away at the underside. I hate rust. I can't do that to my car. I love it too much... Plus I have no hood ATM. From apparent discussions with Dimented it looks like no matter what I do my tune will wander and getting it dialed in with my current setup will be a chore. 8746 with Speed density isn't a good mix from my understanding. PLus I've had the privilege to experience my tune all over the place. I datalogged one day, went through my VE tables and made minimal changes and when I burned a new tune that slight change in the VE table threw me to the other side of the spectrum. (example.... BLM's were like 125.. So I made what I believe is the right correction and in the new tune it logged at 132. Instead of 128 as it shoulda been it jumped to 132. That pissed me off. I'm supposed to dial in the tables but I cant do that if the corrections I make are minimal yet it makes things worse than better.
2) I didn't have a wideband yet so I guess I was limited on how honed in I could get the tune. I just acquired an Innovate LC-2 G3 gauge kit. Now I'm trying to figure out how to get it into the datastream of the $61. Can't seem to find the HAC for that mask.
3) One of the bigger reasons I've stepped back for a bit is because sometimes I just have to step back from the forums otherwise I'll blow a gasket.
Lakeffect2 has a point with this statement....
I'm one of the people that wants to actually know and understand. I know theres no magic fix. It takes hard work....
But... Here's the thing about the forums. Typically there's 2 scenarios that happen. You either have the BLIND leading the BLIND or you got guys like Rbob, Grumpy, Dimented, etc ( a plethora of really advanced guys who truly understand tunning) that when they talk to you more times than not you'll walk away more confused and have a headache.
Too many people are quick to assume you haven't read through STICKIES and/or just want someone to hand you the answer so more times than not you'll get your ***** busted. I've myself have read through stickies numerous times and still am having a hard time comprehending all this stuff. I guess I'm one of those people where this isn't second nature.
Basically I'm here at TGO (since this seems to be the go to place for educated tuners) to try and get help... I cant move forward and learn if the thread has minimal interaction. Rbob has helped quite a bit but the majority of his explanations are over my head. To most it might seem like they have to hold my hand since I'm a newb but maybe that's just how I'll learn.
All in all, I have not given up just needed to step back. Right now I need help from the more experienced tuners. If I cant interact with others in my thread then I cant move forward as I have many questions that are unanswered.
Sorry for the long rant.
1) It's winter and I don't drive my car in the snow. I'm in the midwest. Too much salt and other crap that will eat away at the underside. I hate rust. I can't do that to my car. I love it too much... Plus I have no hood ATM. From apparent discussions with Dimented it looks like no matter what I do my tune will wander and getting it dialed in with my current setup will be a chore. 8746 with Speed density isn't a good mix from my understanding. PLus I've had the privilege to experience my tune all over the place. I datalogged one day, went through my VE tables and made minimal changes and when I burned a new tune that slight change in the VE table threw me to the other side of the spectrum. (example.... BLM's were like 125.. So I made what I believe is the right correction and in the new tune it logged at 132. Instead of 128 as it shoulda been it jumped to 132. That pissed me off. I'm supposed to dial in the tables but I cant do that if the corrections I make are minimal yet it makes things worse than better.
2) I didn't have a wideband yet so I guess I was limited on how honed in I could get the tune. I just acquired an Innovate LC-2 G3 gauge kit. Now I'm trying to figure out how to get it into the datastream of the $61. Can't seem to find the HAC for that mask.
3) One of the bigger reasons I've stepped back for a bit is because sometimes I just have to step back from the forums otherwise I'll blow a gasket.
Lakeffect2 has a point with this statement....
First off the vast majority of the motoring public doesn't have any comprehension of tuning and never will, or want to. they simply want to turn the key, and have it work under any condition.
But... Here's the thing about the forums. Typically there's 2 scenarios that happen. You either have the BLIND leading the BLIND or you got guys like Rbob, Grumpy, Dimented, etc ( a plethora of really advanced guys who truly understand tunning) that when they talk to you more times than not you'll walk away more confused and have a headache.
Too many people are quick to assume you haven't read through STICKIES and/or just want someone to hand you the answer so more times than not you'll get your ***** busted. I've myself have read through stickies numerous times and still am having a hard time comprehending all this stuff. I guess I'm one of those people where this isn't second nature.
Basically I'm here at TGO (since this seems to be the go to place for educated tuners) to try and get help... I cant move forward and learn if the thread has minimal interaction. Rbob has helped quite a bit but the majority of his explanations are over my head. To most it might seem like they have to hold my hand since I'm a newb but maybe that's just how I'll learn.
All in all, I have not given up just needed to step back. Right now I need help from the more experienced tuners. If I cant interact with others in my thread then I cant move forward as I have many questions that are unanswered.
Sorry for the long rant.
12-30-2013, 07:24 PM
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Re: What percentage of people conquer DIY PROM chip burning?
I started learning from this community and others back in 2002. In fact my Caprice was my first car and I had it for less than 2 years before absorbing everything I could about engine theory, ECMs and GM TBI. It's kind of amazing to realize I've been on and off with this stuff for over 11 years now. In fact I've been stalking EBL since its prepubescent days as lockers on the '7747.
You might ask how I ended up here. Well the Impala SS forum kind of shunned TBI cars a bit so for really good engine stuff, TGO was the place for TBI.
I'll say a few things.
My process started with the purchase of an Auto-x-ray XP240 scantool in 2001 (yes I had my car for 6 months and bought a scantool). In spite of the sorry 160 baud ALDL stream, I was able to begin piecing together how the various engine parameters change as a function of engine temperature, load and RPM. Much of my junior and senior year of college was spent tinkering with my car, actually. I was a EE student. And I specifically chose the 93 Caprice for TBI simplicity. I still like TBI. I don't think there is an EFI system on the planet that is simpler or more reliable. This is EFI for the post-apocalypse.
I also credit the folks on here and a few folks I used to e-mail regularly (like Ken Rolt and Scott Peitzsch) sort of coaching me through the learning process. I spent a lot of time with programs like Desktop Dyno 2000 and Cartest just playing with endless combinations and iterations of settings. By the way, as far as I know, Chris McCabe and Ken Rolt basically discovered the Caddy TBI air intake in a junkyard and my Caprice was the test subject, all the way back in 2001 at Ken's house. My car has history, man! Even though it probably still runs 15s (@283k). But I digress...
It was the interest in the subject matter that I really think was the motivating factor in comprehension. Without interest, you're kind of screwed. The good news is, these skills are transferrable. GM ECM's have gotten very complicated (but are also amazingly adaptable to wild setups), and even though there may be new tricks to learn, the basics are certainly the same. I think it's worth the time, if you're really a car guy.
When I got Tunercat, and EPROM burner and UV eraser back in 2002, I began by driving around with WinALDL connected. It sounds silly but simply getting used to the way the engine's load changes with throttle position and RPM is absolutely critical to the tuning process. For me, it was very quickly intuitive. But you must master it. Two of the most important tables are based on load (MAP) and RPM (spark and VE).
Then I started burning chips. Based on my files, it looks like I've burned 238 chips. That's nothing compared to what some have done but it seems like a lot to me! My Caprice's L05 is still basically stock (intake and exhaust mods), so I guess 238 is a lot in terms of it probably needed no more than 50 chips to get where it is now, if I were to start from the stock calibration today. The rest was all learning. Starting with stock has a huge advantage in that you still have all the factory safety factors, and an engine much less likely to blow up if you do something stupid (knock on wood, but stock engines will take all kinds of stupidity like a 15:1 PE AFR, too much advance, within limits of course, etc.). So definitely do that (start with stock).
You will begin to understand that spark advance controls torque output. Also understand that a couple degrees shy of optimal is WAY better than even a degree too far (not so much in terms of engine damage on a stock engine but overall efficiency, particularly with swirl port heads). But different engines want different things. So be very wary of cookbook mods like "add 5° of spark and it'll fly!" The thing about spark is there's no real closed loop tuning process that lets you find the right amount of advance. Well that's not entirely true. You have plug cuts (something I never got into but some people here swear by, especially if you have a hotter setup where SA is playing with fire), dyno runs and 1/4 mile slips. And old fashioned engine sound/feel plus knock sensor output. But there's nothing like fuel control where you can use the O2 sensor to find stoich. That makes SA tuning a bit of an art, particularly on hot setups (and ported heads). Generally, the places where an engine is less volumetrically efficient will require more spark lead for optimal area under the curve. And conversely, less SA when you have greater VE (like the torque peak).
Your engine shouldn't need much SA tweaking, though someone with TBI 454 experience should be able to help. It's entirely possible GM left some performance/efficiency on the table for emissions or lifecycle durability tradeoffs. Part of modifying cars is bending that trade space to a level that fits your goals.
The thing is, you need to understand how engines work. Because the second half of the whole learning exercise is learning the tools (tables, acronyms, settings, etc.).
Having recently had the pleasure of helping my father in law tune his Chevy 292 inline 6 with TBI and EBL, I can say you will want a WB O2 at some point. I spent years guessing my Caprice's AFR and I STILL don't know. It sucks.
These tools really do allow a level of performance and refinement never thought possible from TBI. I do get a lot of satisfaction from that. Remember also that GM TBI was probably among the first reverse engineered EFI systems that folks started tinkering with way back in the 90s (really all the 80s GM EFI systems were).
Your 93 K3500 sounds like it has a 4L80-E and PCM so I guess you won't really get to experience EBL. Though your stock PCM doesn't totally suck so that's something. You of course can piggyback and make EBL the ECM and the original PCM into a TCM, but that's way too much work for what you are going for. Unless it's a 5-speed...
As for your goal, you may want to definitely bill yourself for your hobby time under the circumstances you described and evaluate accordingly. If you don't love the process, you may end up miserable, even if you are motivated by the results.
Which brings me to the process. The tune is never done. Though since my Caprice L05 is still stock, I can go years between tuning and there's no reason you can't, either, if nothing else changes. For me it was emissions that caused me to get back into it 9 months ago (I got it to pass).
But don't feel like you need to see 128 BLMs across the board. That is unrealistic. I would be happy with 125 to 131 or so. If you live in a climate that has actual weather, you'll need an IAT to get the tune more consistent across the seasons.
In conclusion, there's no single post you can read that will answer your question. You must possess a level of interest that will allow you to persevere through the frustrating times. Mechanical, electrical and computer experience also makes life easier. But you will be learning. And that's really why we're all here, I think.
You might ask how I ended up here. Well the Impala SS forum kind of shunned TBI cars a bit so for really good engine stuff, TGO was the place for TBI.
I'll say a few things.
My process started with the purchase of an Auto-x-ray XP240 scantool in 2001 (yes I had my car for 6 months and bought a scantool). In spite of the sorry 160 baud ALDL stream, I was able to begin piecing together how the various engine parameters change as a function of engine temperature, load and RPM. Much of my junior and senior year of college was spent tinkering with my car, actually. I was a EE student. And I specifically chose the 93 Caprice for TBI simplicity. I still like TBI. I don't think there is an EFI system on the planet that is simpler or more reliable. This is EFI for the post-apocalypse.
I also credit the folks on here and a few folks I used to e-mail regularly (like Ken Rolt and Scott Peitzsch) sort of coaching me through the learning process. I spent a lot of time with programs like Desktop Dyno 2000 and Cartest just playing with endless combinations and iterations of settings. By the way, as far as I know, Chris McCabe and Ken Rolt basically discovered the Caddy TBI air intake in a junkyard and my Caprice was the test subject, all the way back in 2001 at Ken's house. My car has history, man! Even though it probably still runs 15s (@283k). But I digress...
It was the interest in the subject matter that I really think was the motivating factor in comprehension. Without interest, you're kind of screwed. The good news is, these skills are transferrable. GM ECM's have gotten very complicated (but are also amazingly adaptable to wild setups), and even though there may be new tricks to learn, the basics are certainly the same. I think it's worth the time, if you're really a car guy.
When I got Tunercat, and EPROM burner and UV eraser back in 2002, I began by driving around with WinALDL connected. It sounds silly but simply getting used to the way the engine's load changes with throttle position and RPM is absolutely critical to the tuning process. For me, it was very quickly intuitive. But you must master it. Two of the most important tables are based on load (MAP) and RPM (spark and VE).
Then I started burning chips. Based on my files, it looks like I've burned 238 chips. That's nothing compared to what some have done but it seems like a lot to me! My Caprice's L05 is still basically stock (intake and exhaust mods), so I guess 238 is a lot in terms of it probably needed no more than 50 chips to get where it is now, if I were to start from the stock calibration today. The rest was all learning. Starting with stock has a huge advantage in that you still have all the factory safety factors, and an engine much less likely to blow up if you do something stupid (knock on wood, but stock engines will take all kinds of stupidity like a 15:1 PE AFR, too much advance, within limits of course, etc.). So definitely do that (start with stock).
You will begin to understand that spark advance controls torque output. Also understand that a couple degrees shy of optimal is WAY better than even a degree too far (not so much in terms of engine damage on a stock engine but overall efficiency, particularly with swirl port heads). But different engines want different things. So be very wary of cookbook mods like "add 5° of spark and it'll fly!" The thing about spark is there's no real closed loop tuning process that lets you find the right amount of advance. Well that's not entirely true. You have plug cuts (something I never got into but some people here swear by, especially if you have a hotter setup where SA is playing with fire), dyno runs and 1/4 mile slips. And old fashioned engine sound/feel plus knock sensor output. But there's nothing like fuel control where you can use the O2 sensor to find stoich. That makes SA tuning a bit of an art, particularly on hot setups (and ported heads). Generally, the places where an engine is less volumetrically efficient will require more spark lead for optimal area under the curve. And conversely, less SA when you have greater VE (like the torque peak).
Your engine shouldn't need much SA tweaking, though someone with TBI 454 experience should be able to help. It's entirely possible GM left some performance/efficiency on the table for emissions or lifecycle durability tradeoffs. Part of modifying cars is bending that trade space to a level that fits your goals.
The thing is, you need to understand how engines work. Because the second half of the whole learning exercise is learning the tools (tables, acronyms, settings, etc.).
Having recently had the pleasure of helping my father in law tune his Chevy 292 inline 6 with TBI and EBL, I can say you will want a WB O2 at some point. I spent years guessing my Caprice's AFR and I STILL don't know. It sucks.
These tools really do allow a level of performance and refinement never thought possible from TBI. I do get a lot of satisfaction from that. Remember also that GM TBI was probably among the first reverse engineered EFI systems that folks started tinkering with way back in the 90s (really all the 80s GM EFI systems were).
Your 93 K3500 sounds like it has a 4L80-E and PCM so I guess you won't really get to experience EBL. Though your stock PCM doesn't totally suck so that's something. You of course can piggyback and make EBL the ECM and the original PCM into a TCM, but that's way too much work for what you are going for. Unless it's a 5-speed...
As for your goal, you may want to definitely bill yourself for your hobby time under the circumstances you described and evaluate accordingly. If you don't love the process, you may end up miserable, even if you are motivated by the results.
Which brings me to the process. The tune is never done. Though since my Caprice L05 is still stock, I can go years between tuning and there's no reason you can't, either, if nothing else changes. For me it was emissions that caused me to get back into it 9 months ago (I got it to pass).
But don't feel like you need to see 128 BLMs across the board. That is unrealistic. I would be happy with 125 to 131 or so. If you live in a climate that has actual weather, you'll need an IAT to get the tune more consistent across the seasons.
In conclusion, there's no single post you can read that will answer your question. You must possess a level of interest that will allow you to persevere through the frustrating times. Mechanical, electrical and computer experience also makes life easier. But you will be learning. And that's really why we're all here, I think.
Last edited by kevm14; 12-30-2013 at 07:33 PM.
12-30-2013, 10:21 PM
#13
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Car: have a 92 camaro rs...in pieces
Engine: none now...probably 383 stroker
Transmission: none yet
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Re: What percentage of people conquer DIY PROM chip burning?
kevm14, looks like your post is addressing a combination of myself and the OP. I purely stumbled across this thread and just wanted to assure the OP my progress is not dead in the water. Anyone that wants to can feel free to come in my thread and leave feedback and/or offer help. For now I'll be waiting for the weather to change and get my WBO2 installed. More than likely I'll be doing alot of PM'in with certain members as that way there's a better chance to actually get replies.
As far as to the OP. Its a task, most will bow out and not continue. If you wanna tune then get ready for the long haul. Its not a month task. If your looking for quick fix. Get a mail order tune. Otherwise dive in and stick with it. If you choose to start tuning good luck to you.
As far as to the OP. Its a task, most will bow out and not continue. If you wanna tune then get ready for the long haul. Its not a month task. If your looking for quick fix. Get a mail order tune. Otherwise dive in and stick with it. If you choose to start tuning good luck to you.
12-31-2013, 10:41 AM
#14
Re: What percentage of people conquer DIY PROM chip burning?
I joined up in 2003 with a 1971 Camaro, having had a Miniram'd engine in the car since 2001.
I was already doing some rudimentary tuning at that point, but after joining, reading, asking questions and replying to others, my tuning skills improved exponentially.
The guys here are extremely helpful and knowledgeable and I'm continually astounded by how much time they devote to this board.
Any rate, that's my
I was already doing some rudimentary tuning at that point, but after joining, reading, asking questions and replying to others, my tuning skills improved exponentially.
The guys here are extremely helpful and knowledgeable and I'm continually astounded by how much time they devote to this board.
Any rate, that's my
01-02-2014, 01:29 PM
#15
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Car: Today? 98 GMC Sonoma
Engine: Seriously? The Sonoma has a TPI 305
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 7.625/4.10
Re: What percentage of people conquer DIY PROM chip burning?
But... Here's the thing about the forums. Typically there's 2 scenarios that happen. You either have the BLIND leading the BLIND or you got guys like Rbob, Grumpy, Dimented, etc ( a plethora of really advanced guys who truly understand tunning) that when they talk to you more times than not you'll walk away more confused and have a headache.
Too many people are quick to assume you haven't read through STICKIES and/or just want someone to hand you the answer so more times than not you'll get your ***** busted. I've myself have read through stickies numerous times and still am having a hard time comprehending all this stuff. I guess I'm one of those people where this isn't second nature.
I'm kind of in the same category as the OP. I'd like to learn to burn chips but not sure if it's worth the time and effort.
I can tune an engine just fine, but when it comes to understanding the computer side of FI I get to the "blow a gasket" side pretty quick. LOL
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