fiveoformula

Been trying to make changes to my 512 chip using a burn2 and tunerpro, I began trying to cut fuel back a little bit and tried adding a little timing but it never seemed more powerful... So for a quick check I burned a chip with the timing retarded wayyyy back to like 11 degrees total advance and I set the speed limiter to 50mph. Anyway, car felt exactly the same and climbed to 65 no problem... Anyone know what could be going on?

The car is an '88 TBI305 Formula, mostly stock with hooker headers, ?Cat, 2.5" catback, open element, TPI fuel pump and stock injectors.

J_D_

Sounds like its in limp home mode. Are you datalogging ?

ace_012

Also see if the check engine light blinking, I think that's also a symptom of limp home mode.

Are you burning the bin to the end of the chip? Not sure what the characteristics are when say you burn the 4k image at the beginning of a 512k chip but figured I'd ask, also I'm pretty sure I read somewhere the 8746 resets tables whenever you turn the car on but you can try unplugging the ecm/battery and see what happens.

I take that back, you should have a 8063 if you have a 88?

fiveoformula

Yeah, it's the '8063. Im not in limp home mode, no SES except an EGR code sometimes.
What do you mean by burning at the end of the chip?
Basically my stock chip wouldn't work after I put the G2 adapter into my ECM, so my buddy found me a bin for my 8036 ecm online somewhere, so that did work and burn to the chip, problem is that the car feels even milder than it was stock, 10.9:1 AFR according to my WBo2 and it feels like it doesn't have a whole lot of timing advance, so I went and tried to tweak it a little, and it's as if it keeps burning the same old bin or something because the changes I make don't seem to do anything.

BlueIroc-Z

iTrader: (6)

Here's a link (from Moates.net) that details the process of offsetting the bin (i.e. burning at the end of the chip).

Basically, when you have a chip with a capacity larger than the size of the .bin being programmed to it, you need to burn the program to the end of the chips addressing space. Think of it like this: Normally the factory chip is just the right size for the .bin, but when you have a larger chip the computer is only able to look for the data in these latter addressing spaces, so that's where you have to put the program.

fiveoformula

Ah ok, basically setting up the chip addressing, and buffer addressing. I did do that.
It's 000000, 00FFFF for both since the file is 64KB. Thats what Its supposed to be right?

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Your stock PROM will still work, even with the G2 installed, you just need to remove the PROM itself from the holder, and insert it the same way as you would the 27SF512, with the only exception being that you place the chip at the end away from where the #1 pin is for the 27SF512. You will have 4 pins left exposed, which would correspond to pins 1, 2, 27 and 28 of the 28 pin EPROM, being left exposed when inserting the 24 pin PROM. It's a good way to check that all the solder joints are ok, and that the ECM can read the E/PROM.

fiveoformula

Well the chip does fit. But when I put it in the first time I think it was backwards, now either way I put it in the SES flashes fast like the chip isn't even there.

ace_012

Well if you have the stock prom in all the way, in the right orientation and it's still in limp home mode I would start with checking your solder joints on whatever adapter your using.

BlueIroc-Z

iTrader: (6)

According to the chart at the bottom of this page, the proper .bin size for an '88 TBI ('8063 ECM) is 4k not 64k... Are you sure your friend got you the right .bin?

Perhaps look around the "File Uploads and Downloads" area of Moates.net for a .bin and make sure you are using the right .xdf file as well. I did see a stock '8063 .bin on there as well as a modified one. And, the corresponding .xdf file.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Plugging a PROM in backwards easily destroys them.

RBob.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

It may be that the BIN was stacked for a 512 kb chip. Which means that he will be changing the calibration in the first 4K space. Which isn't used when installed into the ECM.

At this point would need to either un-stack the BIN (not sure how with easily obtainable software). Or, if the chip is OK (??) read the top 4K out as the BIN. And use that.

RBob.

fiveoformula

Im using the $4D xdf. And I stacked the bin.
The thing is my 512 chip did burn once with that bin we got online, thats how I've been driving the car, it runs ok, not in limp mode. Just slower than it was basically. The problem is that burning the chip again after changing things doesn't seem to do anything, I don't know what could have changed if it took the burn before, why it won't now. I did try several chips too.

fiveoformula

which way is stock chip configured in the ECM by the way? I'll go try again to make sure.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The stock chip once installed into the ECM resides at $F000 through $FFFF.

You need to make calibration changes to the un-stacked BIN. Then stack it and burn.

RBob.

BlueIroc-Z

iTrader: (6)

Ahh, yes, I didn't think of that... Sorry for the confusion.

As for unstacking the .bin, I wouldn't think it'd be too difficult to do with any given freeware hex editor. Just copy off the first 4k and save separately... Or, delete the last 60k...

If you stacked the .bin yourself, then you should still have the 4k .bin around somewhere, right? If so, then just do as RBob said and make sure you make your changes to the unstacked 4k .bin, and then stack it before you burn. Let us know if that works for you.

fiveoformula

Oh wow, So I have to modify the bin and then stack it everytime before I burn it? Seems like alot to do, but I'll let you guys know how it goes. Thanks alot for the help!

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

You should be able to just offset the bin, that's how I've done my EPROM programming.

BlueIroc-Z

iTrader: (6)

Yep, offsetting is generally easier... Stacking, I think, is more useful to run multiple different .bins on one chip (which requires supporting hardware).

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Yep, I still need to try out my 2-timer, I've had it for a couple years but haven't used it yet.

DBLTKE

iTrader: (1)

What exactly is offsetting the bin? How does it differ from stacking?

ace_012

If you can think of the chip as a long strip of flash memory, then offsetting is basically writing the 4k bin to the very end of the 512k (or whatever size your eeprom is) strip because on a eeprom larger then the stock eprom the ecm looks for the bin at the end of the chip. Stacking on the other hand, is just either duplicating the bin a lot of times until it reaches whatever size the eeprom is, and you fill up the "beginning" of the eerpom with copies of the bin so that there is a copy of the 4k bin at the end of the chip. Or you can stack two different bins together and use something like the 2timer from moates and switch between two different bins on the same eeprom.

fiveoformula

Interesting, thanks for explaining that. How do I offset it in tunerpro?

BlueIroc-Z

iTrader: (6)

You don't offset in TunerPro. You do the offsetting in the programmer software before you burn the chip. Is this what your software looks like?


(Image courtesy of Moates.net)

If it is, then you use that chart, and fill in the Chip Addressing and Buffer Addressing fields with the corresponding values.

fiveoformula

Yep, thats what it looks like that. I have 000000 & 00FFFF in the chip and buffer adressing.

BlueIroc-Z

iTrader: (6)

Right, those are the default values for the chip. And, that's what you were using with the 64k stacked bin. If you are now going to start using the 4k .bin without stacking it to 64k, you will need to consult the chart, and fill in the values that match your setup.

With a 4k .bin on a 27SF512 chip you would use the following settings:

Chip
Start: 00F000
End: 00FFFF

Buffer
Start: 000000
End: 000FFF

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

The cool thing about using Tuner Pro RT and the Burn2 is that when you use TP RT, it will automatically set the offset, whne you load the bin to the buffer.

I use my Burn2 exclusivly now.

BlueIroc-Z

iTrader: (6)

Oh, I didn't know that (don't have a Moates burner). So, if he initializes the burning process from TunerPro RT it will take care of all this for him? That's pretty cool.

I guess just use my numbers for verification purposes then.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

It works for me using a Burn2, which AFAIK, the Burn2 is the only programmer supported in TP RT.

fiveoformula

Sorry, im still a little confused. Do plug these settings in on the unstacked bin, make my changes, then stack the bin again and change these settings back to what I currently have in?

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

That's so you don't have to stack it.

fiveoformula

Cool! So I can use those values, make my changes then burn and go??

ace_012

Make sure your using the 4k bin, make your changes to the bin, and when your burning the bin to the chip make sure the chip addressing and buffer addressing are the same as blueiroc-z said

Also just to mention it tunercat also automatically sets the offset when you burn it.

fiveoformula

Tried it, still seems like the same problem. I went to the target idle constant (A/C off) and set it at 1300rpm and started it, and it still idled at 5-600rpm. I figured thats the best way to find if my changes are working? unless someone else know of something else I should do.

fiveoformula

Any other idea's on what my problem might be?
Everyones help so far is greatly appreciated.

BlueIroc-Z

iTrader: (6)

I dunno, I was going to let someone else that was more familiar with your setup take over, so I wouldn't be confusing you.

I can't guarantee that I would find anything, but you could read your chip as it sits and "save the buffer to file," then post it here as an attachment and I could take a look at it.

fiveoformula

Sure I'll give it a shot, you want the bin im using right now?

BlueIroc-Z

iTrader: (6)

Yeah, but it should be read and saved from the chip. Not the file from your computer.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

When I load a new .bin I watch for... key on...engine off... the CE light will blink then steady on. That is a good sign it will run off .bin. If no blink just solid it will limp. When engine starts you should not see solid CE.

280zwitha383

Is that only the first time you put the new chip/bin in or should that be every time?

ace_012

Every time. I'm not sure if you can do it several times within like a minute or what not, but every time I start my truck I always look at that.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Key-off for 5 seconds or more. It should do it every time.


RBob.

fiveoformula

Sorry I've been away from the computer for a while. Sorry to sound like a newb but what is the best way post my bin up?

BlueIroc-Z

iTrader: (6)

When you reply click the button at the bottom that says: "Go Advanced." Then on the page that comes up, under the place where you type your reply, there is a section called "Additional Options," under that there will be a button that says: "Manage Attachments." Then you can attach it from there, using the "Upload file from your computer" section.

Umm, on second thought, it appears that it will have to be a ZIP file for it to work this way... To convert to a ZIP file, you just bring it up in Windows explorer and right-click on the file and click "Send To..." then choose "Compressed (zipped) folder..." Then, use the previous explanation on how to attach to your post.

If you can't get it to work you could e-mail it to me and I could post it to the thread for you. If you want to do it this way let me know and I will private message you my e-mail address.

fiveoformula

Bah... It keeps giving me an upload error. Maybe E-mail would be better, sorry im not really that computer savy.

BlueIroc-Z

iTrader: (6)

No worries. I have PM'd you my e-mail address. Let me know if you have any trouble.

fiveoformula

Thanks! you have an E-Mail

BlueIroc-Z

iTrader: (6)

Attached is his BIN as it was e-mailed to me.

From what I can tell (by looking at the multiple identical copies that are part of the stacked BIN), he was originally working with the amyb0675.bin file available from Moates FTP. I used that as a comparison to deduce the changes that have been made.

After looking through it, I have noticed a few things:

1. Have you changed any other things while you've been messing with it? It seems changes have been attempted on each of the following: checksum, PE afr vs. rpm table, Target idle speed (A/C req.), Target idle speed (no A/C req.), and Max cold engine speed.
2. The changes were not present at the correct offset for the 27SF512 chip. Seems like the file was manipulated with TunerPro after being stacked.
3. You said you set Target idle speed (no A/C req.) to 1300. That value was 750 as I checked it.

Anyway, that is what I have come up with. Anyone else is welcome to verify or refute any of this.


So, here's what I think: You should start over from the top:

1. Go back to your original file, it should be 4k in size.
2. Make changes to this file in TunerPro. Probably just change that one idle value for now as a test.
3. Save this changed BIN without stacking it. Save it as a new file name to keep your original intact.
4. Erase and "Blank Check" your chip.
5. Burn the chip using the offsets for a 4k BIN on a 27SF512 as specified in the previously referenced table. Or, according to Six_Shooter I think it was, if you initiate the burn from TunerPro it will setup the offsets for you.
6. Use the "Verify Chip with Buffer" option.
7. That should be it. Let us know if it works.

If anyone has a better idea or anything to add, please do...

fiveoformula

Sorry it has been a while here, I've gotten really frustrated trying to make this work so I put it away for a while. That plus a job change had me focused elsewhere. But I've got some time now and the local third gen club is getting ready for a dyno day in March, so im looking to get back at it, and try to find some more horses with my 'bird.
BlueIroc, I tried to go back and get the original bin that my friend got for me, but for some reason it was a 64K not a 4K? so I couldn't stack it... Sorry it's been a while, you probably don't even remember my problem.

BlueIroc-Z

iTrader: (6)

I has been a while, but I think I remember the basics of where we left off.

If you want to stick with the file that your friend gave you to start off with, you can e-mail it to me and I can "un-stack" it for you.