ZZ3Astro

Help! I'm just about to throw the towel in on this one. I have an 87 Iroc 5.7. I converted to a 7730 ecm last year in preparation for moving to Code 59. I finally got my 3 bar map (PLX) and wide band O2 (PLX) and switched over to Code 59 on the stock injectors to get some practice tuning in. Drove it around on 59 for a month or so and finally got my 65# Precision Turbo injectors.

After getting the new injectors installed, I attempted to get Code 59 running but ran into difficulty getting it to idle or run smoothly. I switched over to my 1 bar MAP and uploaded an 8D bin with an adjusted injector constant and it started right up. Of course it wasn't exact but I was able to drive it with no problem on 8D. Going back to the 59 bin, I was able to get it to idle with a big surging problem. The AFR swings wildly from 10.0 to 20.0 and anywhere in between (if you can keep it running) and keeps swinging till it eventually dies. At the same time, the engine is misfiring and running rough. It's in and out. It will sound perfect one second then start dropping out the next.

I've tried: another 3 bar map, another ecm, 3 completely different starter .bins, new knock sensor, watched every sensor on the ALDL for spikes/dropouts, checked fuel pressure (always steady), burned an eprom to make sure it wasnt my romulator, tried 2 different memcal modules, disconnected egr, new spark plugs

Here is what I've just discovered. The driver side manifold is getting so hot it turns dark. The passenger side manifold is much cooler. The oem O2 is in the driver side manifold. The wide band is behind the Y. When the engine is running on code 59, say at 2000 rpm, with the AFR swinging from 11 to 14 on the wideband, the narrowband voltage is near zero!

Since the passenger side is cool, and the total AFR is below 14.7, that side must be dumping tons of fuel while the driver side is leaning out. That's what I'm thinking at least. I reversed the injector driver wires a the ecm (dark blue and dark green). The problem did not move. This points to an injector/fueling issue rather than a computer problem. However, I can immediately upload an 8D bin and the problem is completely gone!!

This makes me think something about one or more of the injectors on that side is causing the ECM injnector driver to which that bank is connected to drop injector firings randomly. I've checked the voltage, grounds and impedance. Here is what I've found (keeping in mind this all works fine on the 8D bin):

Stock Injector: 17 ohms each cold (didnt test hot)
Precision Turbo Injector: 12 ohms cold and 8.8 ohms hot

I tested the circuit with all injectors and found each bank of four injectors measures about 2.8 ohms cold and 2.2 ohms hot. Both sides are the same whenever you check.

From my research, the largest injector size I've seen on code 59 with a v8 is around 42#. I'm wondering if there is an issue with the shorter pulsewidth required on these larger injectors. I'm thinking about going to a Megasquirt but I'd like to keep my emmissions functions available.

Anyone heard of a similar problem? Am I wasting my time on this? I don't want to go down a beaten path if I can avoid it!

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Check the data log with the $59 code installed. See if the injector firing is being switched in & out of async mode. That can cause issues such as a sudden change in fuel delivery. Which in turn can cause surging.

RBob.

ZZ3Astro

Hmm ok I'll try that. Assuming it is switching in and out, is there a setting somewhere in the constants or something I can change to resolve it? Thanks

ZZ3Astro

Well never mind that.. I watch the ALDL and the async mode never changes from 0. I also disconnected one injector at a time on the left bank but the random misfiring continued with the remaining injectors. I used an IR thermometer to verify the driver side manifold is much hotter than the passenger side.

Going to borrow a 749 ECU tomorrow and see if it behaves the same way.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Don't know if what I am going to mention will help or not. Just some thoughts. The '7730 ECM has one injector driver. It can be wired as a peak-and-hold (PnH) or a saturated driver. As a PnH driver it is good to go with 1 TBI injector, or 2 low impedance port injectors.

The '7749 ECM has two injector drivers. And, as with the '7730 can be wired as saturated drivers or PnH drivers. The Turbo Sunbird wiring is for 4 port PnH injectors.

The Cyclone/Typhoon with the '7749 is wired as saturated injectors.

Maybe check how the injector wiring is set up. Although, both $8D and $59 should be OK on a '7730 with saturated injectors and saturated wiring. But I don't know that for sure as the code changes are closed.

It is just that this seems to be a bank issue, so maybe this is were the issue is.

RBob.

ZZ3Astro

From what I've read on various sites and forums, the 749 should be able to plug in directly in place of the 7730 and run Code 59. I think the only two wires that really need to be changed are the TCC Lockup and the ALDL signal. I plugged a 749 in today without changing those wires and I had ALDL from it, but the car wouldn't start. It would only randomly fire.

Anyway, when I went back to the 730 ECU, and the 8D bin, it had the same problem I've been having only with $59. So now I realize I have some other issue at play. For some reason code 59 is more affected by it, but I have now seen the driver side hot manifold issue with 8D bins. I let the car cool off about 10 mins and it ran normal again. It could be an ignition issue I guess with unburnt fuel going past the narrowband and then burning, but the manifold above the NB O2 is what's getting so hot.

I'm going back to stock injectors to see if the problem goes away.

skwayb

Just to let you know, Jeff Scott on code59, (ty1295 on here) runs 84LB injectors on his V8 Twin Turbo with Code59. He has a 7749 ECM though and has ran in SAT, and P&H. They are low z impedence injectors so when we went to P&H, he had to change the sense resistor so it would beable to control them properly.

I run 65lber high imp. on my V6 Ty in Saturated mode and have no problems but I am on a 7749 ecm.

You said you converted to a 7730, from what did you convert from? a 165? I would go through all the wiring at the ECM again and make sure everything is correct. I would look at the 7730 to 7749 conversion again. I thought there were more changes than just those 2 wires you mentioned. Something definitely doesn't sound correct. I don't you can just change for $8D and 58/59 without repining. So sounds like some wiring issue.

ZZ3Astro

Yep started as a 165 and went to a 7730. Remember I'd been driving this thing on Code 59 for a while with the stock injectors. The problems started with the 65# high impedance injector install. This week I'm going back to the stock injectors to see if everything goes back to normal.


As for running code 59 on the 7730, going by this post: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...repin-few.html among others, there is no repinning required to run Code 59, except for adding the wide band O2 input and using a 3 bar map.

I must be wrong however on the 747 ecu just being able to plug in place of the 7730. I didn't look too hard at the details on it, just something I wanted to try out of desperation.

AC

iTrader: (3)

FWIW, I ran a TPI setup with a 383, a P1SC supercharger and 60# injectors with my 730 ecm very successfully. I have since ditched the blower for now and still run my 383 with a HSR now, 60# injectors sucessfully.

I'll re-read this post tomorrow morning when my brain is fresh and see if I can lend any help / advice. I know it can be done so hopefully you'll get there.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Odd, that people say that the injectors HAVE to be moved in pin location. I had a '7749 ECM fail on me tonight, had my girlfriend bring me a '7730 I had at home, plugged it in, cleared the flood from trying to start it, and it ran fine all the way home. I haven't looked any deeper in to it just yet. The loss of functionality I noticed was no ALDL connection which confuses me due to the test bench harness I have, that I use with both '7749 and '7730 ECMs and am able to connect through the ALDL without moving that pin.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I have posted a few times about the 730 and 749 differences in wiring when using high-Z injectors.

Low-Z injectors are a different story........you just can't swap in the 730 and 749 because of the fuel injector jumper wires needed for the 749 and the 730 can't do low-Z.

The fuel algorithm in the stock $58 code is terrible. It looks like a derivative of the 747 TBI code. The $8D fuel algorithm is night and day better. I don't know what the $59 uses.

It is most likely you are seeing the injectors not opening due to low pulse widths. Work the low PW injector correction and battery voltage correction tables.

Yes, people may have had success with XX #/hr injectors, but without any detailed info. it is of no use to you. Your heads/cam/intake determine your injector pulsewidth. The PW sounds like a problem because it is too low and you didn't adjust the tables to smooth out the PW and keep it from not opening sometimes and then swinging too rich.

It is expected to get an erratic rpm at non-idle areas where the PW is low (under 2500 RPM, light throttle).

Last, don't try to tune with so-called hobbyist "emulators". Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. If you are in the learning & tuning stages using a junk piece of equipment that is faulty at random (sometimes bus collisions) then it is going to make tuning 10 times as difficult. You may tune in the right direction, but the equipment screws up and makes it look wrong. Then you get confused. Just be careful who's emulator you use if you do use one. Some are garbage.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

You are correct if using high-z injectors. If using high-z it is a drop in, but trans. lookup is non-functional using the 749.

The "moved pin location" for the injectors is ONLY if replacing a 730 with a 749 AND LOW-Z injectors are used. In this case, the wires are moved and jumper wires are added.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

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junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Read post #26 here:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...repin-few.html

It came from testing the $58 code, the 749 ECM, the $8D code, the 730 ECM for months on the testbench and then in the car.

Eventually, I threw in the towel on the $58 and re-wrote the $8D to handle a 2-bar MAP sensor. Getting the boost AE code was the longest most difficult part. I think the $8D re-write took about 6 months..........been years now (yr 2005/2006) and I forget the exact length of time.

AC

iTrader: (3)

junkcltr, you are so right here. I need to clarify a few things:

1. I deleted my portion of the post that spread mis-information, that was not done on purpose.

2. I have done so much to my car in the last 9 months I originally typed my response off memory and not going back to review my pages of notes & scribble. If I had, I'd have posted something simliar to what junkcltr had.

3. The car does run beautifully with minor bugs using the 730ecm,$59 code and 60# injectors.

ZZ3Astro

I appreciate all the responses... Just curious if any of you have checked your injector resistance change from cold to fully warmed up. Several people have told me the drop from 12 ohms to 8.8 seems excessive on these Precision Turbo injectors.. but these aren't exactly cheap injectors so it doesn't seem they'd be different than any others.

Once I get this thing back together with the stock injectors (hopefully tonight) I'll know if it's limited just to the new injectors. If so.... wow

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

I never did a warm test. All measured 12 +/-1 ohm when cold (from memory). I would not be surprised if only the injectors are causing the problem. You have an injector that is causing pulsewidths that are so small that it can not be turned on and off with enough accuracy. Your tables will be very hard to tune, but with time you should get it. What does the ALDL log say you idle puslewidths are? It is necessary to do ALDL logging when trying to run injectors that large.

AC,
I edited/deleted my post that quoted you. It sounds like you have the $59 working well. Someday I will have to get around to trying it. Did you have to modify the low PW and battery correction PW a lot? I think those tables need to be worked for ZZ3Astro's injectors.

jwscab

Are the precision turbo injectors the newer style seimens/deka slim injectors? Or they are the older wide body type injectors? It could very likely be the voltage correction and low PW. From what I've seen and heard, the newer seimens injectors are better suited to low pw, the way they are designed, and people that are using them might have less trouble than someone who might be using the older style larger body injectors.

ZZ3Astro

They are the new slim style injectors.

I've been wondering about the Min pulsewidth settings in code 59 setting KAPLL and KAPMIN.. there are several settings in that area that I can find very little info about. I made some changes to these numbers to see if the problem was affected but it seemed to make no difference. This area would be highly suspect as the pulsewidth would have to be about 1/3rd that of stock to get the same fueling and this is what I was thinking could be causing problems. However, obviously some of you are running the same size (and larger) injectors without these problems. Anyone know where I can find information about these pulseswidth related settings? Thanks

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The low PW correction and battery correction is causing a problem. Scale them down according to your old_inj/new_inj ratio for starters. I am not saying it is the only problem, but is a problem.

The KAPLL and KAPMIN has to due with async vs sync mode. The $8D does not have this type of fuel code. It is one reason why I stuck with the $8D.

Your cam,intake,heads,exhaust will determine where your PWs will end up. So someone having it work with large injectors may have a larger intake track and run more rich than your setup. Start with fixing the correction tables and then look at your PWs via ALDL to see if using the large injectors will work with your setup.

As an example, my 42#/hrs high-z in my LT1 intake, 216*@.050 I/E cam, stock TB, twin T3 60 trim turbos idles with a PW of 1.2ms with an AFR a littler leaner than stoich.
There is no way my setup would be able to handle 65#/hr high-z injectors and idle as cleanly/smoothly as it does. Eventually, I will need to move on to 72#/hr low-z for an S400 setup so I started down the path of looking at the 427 ECM that has the ability of doing alternate fire bank mode at idle and other areas of low PW.

The megasquirt hardware has the ability to do this also, but there is not code to do this yet. The 749 and 730 ECM can't do this mode.

skwayb

59 pretty much shares the same fuel algorithm as 58. So you probably won't want to mess with it if you thought it was junk. We just improved it some. We added a larger fuel table 16x32, an expanded boost multipler, and some better wastegate/boost control along with all the Wideband code. In short it is just an improved 58 fuel algorithm. Quasi in it is pretty whacky, so I just disable it. Even my friend Jeff running 84lbers on his twin turbo disabled it.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

The method the $58 uses with the boost fuel is fine. I ended up doing both a boost fuel multiplier and adder tables.

The bad part of the $58 code that I didn't like was the quasi mode. The settings for it were oddly defined from my point of view.
Do you have a clear definition of how to properly disable the quasi mode? I know certain sets of changes to the cal. parameters would make the fuel control do rather odd things.

EDIT: Just noticed skwayb is running a 4L80E transmission. That is one more reason I want to run the 427 ECM. The other is alternate bank fire mode (squirt one bank of injectors every crank revolution = left & right bank squirted once during one engine revolution (2 crank revs)).

skwayb

For the 4L80e control I was going to piggyback a GM ECM I have and have it run the tranny while having the 749 run the Engine. I helped Jeff(Ty1295) get that setup running on a Syclone. It was a PITA to get it to control the TCC properly and read MPH properly with the 749 DRAC. Now some of those issues have been figured out.

I decided to go with the PCS Trans Controller instead at them time due to the TCC and MPH issues. It still piggy backs off the 749 but was really easy to setup. Couple of wires to piggy back, RPM, CLT, TPS, MAP, brake switch for TCC unlock. I love the controller. Easy to tune, and PCS has great support. If you are having an issue tuning it, they will have you send them a log and they will help tweak the settings.

Now for QUASI there are 2 Variables that affect if it is used or not. They are:

QUASI-ASYNCH MPH THRESHOLD (KQSYNMPH) - I think you Set this to 255 MPH to disable but this also affects the transition from quasi to sync. So you want to make sure quasi never comes on.
RPM above which Quasi-Asynch Fuel is NOT USED (KQASRPMD) - Set this to 0 RPM to keep it in SYNC mode most of the time as long as your pulse never goes below KAPLL
Next lower MIN Base Pulse (KAPLL) to 0 so it will never go Quasi.

In the 59 XDF, I labeled all the items with the Variable that is in the P4 Document. So it makes it easier to follow the P4 Doc. Here is what is says about Enabling Conditions for Sync. Pulse.

9.2.1.1 Synchronous Fuel Enable Criteria

The synchronous fuel delivery mode will be enabled when ignition is ON, and any of the
following conditions:
1. Engine not running, or
2. Engine running and engine RPM greater than or equal to *KQASRPMD*, or
3. Engine running, engine RPM less than *KQASRPMD*, and base pulse width
greater than *KAPLH*, or if base pulse width is less than or equal to *KAPLH*,
then not in quasi-asynchronous mode and base pulse width greater than *KAPLL*.
Once synchronous fuel delivery mode is enabled, it will remain enabled until base pulse width

becomes less than or equal to *KAPLC*.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Item number 3 never made sense to me in that doc. It is a run on without a clear definition. It could be read such that KAPLH has no affect on sync mode, or it could mean that for sync mode the PW must be greater than KAPLH. The ", or if base pulse........, then not in" does not make sense.

I hope to have my 4L80E installed one day. Good job getting yours working. Mine has been sitting on the floor for over a year.

skwayb

When you get the 80e, if you need any help tweaking it, let me know. Also just curious what code mask are you going to run? $31, $85, $OE, ?

I don't think there is a 2bar code that runs a 4L80e also that I know of.

ZZ3Astro

Just an update.. I went back to stock injectors and had it driving great without any surging.. Went back to the 65# injectors and all of the problems came back. I borrowed a 749 ecm, swapped the few pins that need to be and through in my tune. It will not fire up. Only hits a few licks. I'm done with trying to make this work. Going to a Megasquirt 2.

Thanks for the input though.

???

iTrader: (5)

good luck MS. hope it works better for you. please post back and tell us how it goes and if you don't mind what a real cost of the MS is. I've researched it and could never really nail down what a running wideband controled setup would cost me after all is said and done.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Way more than it's worth. I've seen a few "final cost" threads on a website I used to go to. (www.hybridz.com) It was several hundred dollars more than people are led to believe on average. Now keep in mind most of those conversions required adding all of the sensors, due to converting Nissan L-series straight 6s, which most guys used an Infinity (IIRC) TB to add the proper TPS instead of the original throttle switch used by the original EFI on the Nissan L-series. Most GM swappers don't need to do that, but even GM swappers run into thier own issues that I've seen, like TCC, which becomes a compromise at best due to there not being any VSS connected to the MS, some swappers go to the old vacuum switch set-up.

I've looked at MS several times to use on projects and the GM ECM always comes out on top with features and adjustablility.

ZZ3Astro.

The problem is not your ECM, it is yoru injectors or possibly the settings in your bin.

ZZ3Astro

I'll definitely keep you posted. If I don't do it here, I have a post in the power adder section that I plan to keep updated. So far I can tell you what I have spent:

Megasquirt 2 3.0 (kit version), HEI add-on, boost controller add-on, 12 foot harness (have to put your own ends on it for the engine side) shipped $349

It would have been about $100 more to get the prebuilt surface mount version but I'm on an ever tightening budget.

I used a PLX wideband O2 SM-ADR with the PLX DM-200 display. I used the PLX-Boost/Vac 3 bar module also for the 7730 but the MS has a built in 2.5bar map. I'm going to use the PLX for MAP and use the built in one for barometer I guess. I stole the PLX stuff on Ebay for about $500 total new. But the bottom line is you need to figure about $190 for the O2 and controller and another $50 if you want a cheap display.

I made a custom PLX gauge for KPA which is handy if you're riding around without the laptop and notice a lean spot. Haven't gotten around to making the stripping girl boost gauge yet!

Already started removing all stock ECM wiring. I said I'd never do it to this car but here I am. Not going to cut anything other than tape though. I have about half of it hanging over the fenders, just gotta get the harness disconnected from those stupid back of the head brackets now. I'll finish separating the F.I. wiring out and remove it. When I make the new MS harness I'm going to run it under the plenum to make it look cleaner.

ZZ3Astro

Six_shooter, I'm sure it is one of those two things.. but what settings? I have two months of posts on code59 with very few answers. As for the injectors I have, my friend uses the same ones on all kinds of stock ECMs with no problems. Even I was using them with no problems with the 8D bin. This brings us back to these mystery settings in the bin. I've changed starter bins so many times that one of these were bound to have different mystery settings, yet the problem was always the same.

TCC and other controls could theoretically be handled by the stock ECM in piggy back but there isn't much room under my dash with all of these PLX boxes down there

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I don't know what settings exactly, I'm not anywhere near the car.

One thing I would have tried before pulling the GM ECM out is to run the '7749 in peak and hold mode, it may be what those injectors need. This requires a change to the injector driver and sense resistors, but but is a pretty minor change and documented well. I believe there is a link in the FAQ on this forum and it's definatly mentioned on the $59 site.

You might have also tried a-sync fuel, though I don't have any personal experiance with using it, I have only read the theory on how it works and why it should or could be used.

But it's your call, from what you've wrote on here and $59 I can see it's not the engine managment, directly. It would be interesting to get an O-scope on the injector output and see what's going on.

Dig has posted some information on tuning away from idle surging just today, and from what I've tried in the past I can say that it works, or at least is a start to getting surging out of the car.

My car surges every now and then and have tried the flattening of the fuel map, and it worked better, but wasn't the complete solution, since I have a lot of other variables to get right first, it's just a help along the way for now.

ZZ3Astro

Yep idle surging I can live with.. it's seeing 14.5 at 2500 rpm and suddenly the injectors stop firing, it goes to 20+ afr then suddenly dumps all the fuel it was supposed to have at once and goes straight to 10 that was driving me nuts. Probably fouled out another set of plugs now! I would love to investigate this problem further some day and find out exactly why I was having it. Will be interesting to see if the MS puts up a fight or just works perfectly.

???

iTrader: (5)

MS doesn't have a vss input? odd

what about ac request, does it handle the iac before the ac clutch kicks in to cover for the load dump?


i know its way to late, but i will say when i conveted to a peak and hold box while still running my ford green top 42s. i had to back the ve table way down. it was much richer everywhere. seeing that i wondered how guys were getting away with big injectors on the ecm.

i will keep an it out for your thread over in that forum.

anyone thought is the ebl with the port mod. did you check into that at all?

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

There's a lot of stuff the MS doesn't have, which is why I still don't use one, no limp home mode either, and from what I've seen it really should have one.

I don't recall seeing anything for A/C request, you have to remember it's a hobbiest computer, targeted to people that want a tuneable EFI system and that want to build it themselves, or for retrofits, where people are too overwhelmed by retro fitting something like the GM EMS. MS is a simple EMS, and to be simple it can't really have all the fine details that systems like the GM EMS have.

If I had to run something like a generator or log splitter or something like that, I'd look more seriously at the MS, because most static devices like that just run at a steady state, and don't need the refinements. Though I'd still likely retrofit a GM EMS, because I they can be had cheap, and I could likely find uses for the extra inputs. Hey, I installled a '7749 running $59 in my 1973 Datsun, because the GM EMS has so many good features.

I also seriously considered the MS for the T-bucket, that will have MPFI on a comnverted mechanical injection intake, but again, because of some of the still missing features, like the VSS, I'm opting to run a '7730 and S_AUJP, but also further develop a 1 BAR $59.

skwayb

ZZ,

Have your checked to see if QUASI was set to come on... It could be that. Set QUASI RPM to 0, QUASI MPH to 255 and MIN Base Pulse (KAPLL) to 0 and see if that stops the injectors not firing problem you are having. I have no idea why one bank of injectors would stop firing since they are wired to run in BATCH and fire at the same time. It makes no sense that one bank would stop firing at all since electrically they are hooked up off the same line.

You were probably looking at the ASYNC Pulse Complete in the log and not the Quasi-Async Pulse (QAP Flag). It is near the bottom of all the flags. I have a feeling it was QAUSI cuasing problems. I would try turning it off and see if that stops the problem.

Then after you are sure you are getting it to stay SYNC all the time, you might need to adjust the Fuel Injector Offset -vs- Battery Voltage (F92) table. It might have too much base opening MS for the Injectors being added. The Fuel Injector Offset -vs- Base Pulse Width (F94) is antoehr table to look at. But it usually set to 0 for all values but I would check it and see if your chip has some values in it. The F94 table is the injector linearity term and is calculated as:
BPWLIN = *F94* where the *F94* table is a function of BPW (base pulse width) if BPW is less than 3.9 mSec. Otherwise, BPWLIN is set to zero. Look in the P4 Document for more explaination of when the BPWLIN is used.

ZZ3Astro

Skwayb,

After reading your response and another above, I figured why not give it one more shot. I connected the harness up, threw on the ignition system and made the changes you recommended. First I changed the F92 numbers to about .38 of the original values. That made no difference so I cut the new numbers in half. No change. As you can see in this video, the problem continued and quasi flag remains at zero. The F94 numbers were already zero. Check engine light is only on because I left a couple of things disconnected like the knock sensor.

Now seriously, this time, I'm done with code 59. I appreciate everyone's help but this is it for me. Been there, done that, now I have a video too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VT30oL4tOdc

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Wow this is disappointing to hear...i'm gonna try code 59 with 80 lb injectors here in the next upcoming weeks..... i hope i can get it to work

AC

iTrader: (3)

Six_Shooter, 1 bar for $59 eh?? Why not invest effort into increasing the SA and VE resolutions, moving more towards the 8d's resolution? "insert really apparent hint here", LOL.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Well, with 1 BAR $59 there is lots of resolution, more than what $8D has, if what I am trying (with help of the $59 authors) works.

Unfortunatly, I a ways away from trying this on anything other than my test bench at this point, the T-bucket project keeps getting more and more delayed.

???

iTrader: (5)

yeah, I was going to say, 59 has huge ve tables compaired to 8d. I'm guessing that the 1bar mode would use the full table that the 3 bar uses now. but even the 0-100kpa part of the ve table is bigger than that whole 8d ve. I have a feeling ac has only looked at the stock 58 code. has the OP posted up his bin anywhere?

ZZ3Astro

I'll post up one of the bins. I'm not sure which one to put up though. I have so many from starting over that I don't know which ones are the best. I'll just put the one up from the video I guess. I have a log file from a couple of weeks ago I can put up as well. Will try to post it up here today.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, at this point, I'm setting it up to use the entire extended VE and SA tables, which I don't think there will be a problem with, but like I said I will need to do more testing before knowing for sure.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

After watching the video the problem is apparent. The injector offset values are way too low. Note that the column label should be uSec., not mSec., so the XDF should be changed to reflect that.

With that in mind increase the injector offset values to something along these lines:

Note that these are basically stock BBZB values (as long as the BIN wasn't modified before being posted). With the larger injectors there may be a need for higher values. It comes down to how fast (or slow) they open.

Try the above as a starting point, then tweak from there.

If it helps but does not fully cure it, add another 100 usec across the table (except at 0 volts). And try it again.

RBob.

AC

iTrader: (3)

You might want to consider what "resolution" means when I say that. Look at the RPM availability in the 8D vs. the 59 code. Am I completely wrong saying the $59 ends at 4800rpms and also doesnt start map kpa until 37kpa?? PLEASE, PLEASE tell me I'm wrong if I am because thats one of the only things I don't like about the code.

I have never mentioned 58, nor have I ever used it, I've only used 8d and $59 and I'm sticking with $59 because the car runs great with it.

Back to the subject, RBob brings up a really good point and hopefully ZZ3Astro gives it one more one last shot.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

In my first post (post #11) I said to work the injector offset & injector battery correction tables. It seems others posting feel the same way.
When ever new injectors are installed these tables need to be changed. It is more important with larger injectors.

You should also estimate your VE at idle and do a calc. to see what AFR the engine will be at with the min. allowable PW for those injectors. It may end up that no high-z driver ECM will satisfy your engine and high-z large injectors. You may need to go to alternate bank fire or SEFI if the AFR is unacceptable to you.

What size CI, heads, cam, intake are on this thing? To have use large injectors like that with batch fire usually requires a large duration (waste fuel) cam and/or a rich idle AFR.

ZZ3Astro

You're talking about the F92 table.. That's why I showed that table, because I was following some last minute advice to lower those numbers.. it didn't make a difference to the problem and I made the video to show. They started out around the numbers you posted. It seems there is no consensus among code 59 tuners and that's why I gave up on it.

ZZ3Astro

The engine is a completely stock 5.7 TPI. Don't take this the wrong way - I really do appreciate you taking the time to think about my problem and making the effort to post, but I've stated in nearly every post that this engine works fine with the 65# injectors using the 8D bin. The idle AFR stays in the 14.5 to 15.0 range (not as stable as stock injectors but certainly bearable) and that's without putting a ton of effort into tuning the 8D as that was never my plan to use. Why 65's? Because I don't plan on keeping the engine stock and I plan on running a lot of boost when I get to that point. And I bought them on the advice of a personal friend who has about 20 turbo injected V8 builds under his belt.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

I did a quick search on the injectors you posted. If I found the correct ones they are Mototrons. Which are good injectors. Very linear response curve.

I don't know if you want to put more effort into this. But the main difference between the $58 code and $8D code is double fire (both $8D & $58) versus single fire ($8D) or async ($58). I can't speak for $59 because I don't know what changes they made. Although from the above posts it sounds like it still uses async mode, not single fire.

What I would look at is when running $8D is the ECM going into single fire at idle. If so then you may not get it to run OK on $58/$59.

The other item is to look at the $8D cal you used. Check the injector offset compensation and injector low PW comp. Then compare those values to the ones in the $59 code. Remember to double the offset comp values before plugging then into $59. Has to do with $8D adding the table value in twice.

Then check that the VE values are in the same ballpark.

RBob.

junkcltr

iTrader: (1)

Even the $8D needs a tweak of the injector offset and battery correction to get things "right". Yes, the $8D is a better base to start with. That is the very reason I ditched the $58 code and spent the 6 months or better adding boost code to the $8D code.

RBob mentions some important differences above between the $8D and $58 code. The quasi $58 mode is what steered my away from using that code.

Sorry I couldn't help more with the $58 code. I could never get it to run right with my mild cam 350ci and 42#/hr injectors. Others have done it, but I spent weeks on the idle and low RPM cruise and could never get it right. It was good every where else. I agree that many do not agree about how to set up the quasi parameters correctly. I don't think all of the parameters are adjusted appropriately. Most just adjust until it works right on their engine. If the engine is more stock then it needs lower PWs and more values tweaked.

As for the $8D code, I am very close to single fire mode PWs at idle with the 42#/hr high-z injectors. I posted my setup earlier which is close to stock 350ci except for the turbos. In decel. mode, the engine enters single fire mode and the rhythm of the engine changes. I also changed the ALDL output to actually send out the true injector PW. So in the single fire mode I see the PW being 0 for one time, then an actual PW, then 0, then actual PW, and so on. The only way for you to figure this all out using a GM ECM is to use the ALDL. Like you posted, it is a large hassle for you. You could always get a Willem PROM programmer for $50, a $50 ALDL cable and go from there or continue on the road of MS2. MS2 is a good setup......just needs some old school ckts to make up for missing outputs.

skwayb

Thanks for catching the error RBob. I have been through the XDF several times and never noticed it. I will change it to uSec in my next XDF release. Is F94 also in uSec and not mSec?