tunerpro w/165 ecm q's (searched)
06-07-2009, 04:48 PM
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tunerpro w/165 ecm q's (searched)
what would cause this??? under flags in tunerpro aldl data my car always reads learning disabled?? why even when the loop status is closed?? any ideas guys , im trying to figure out why my idle is so lean (off scale on wideband)ARGGGHHHH
06-07-2009, 07:10 PM
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Re: tunerpro w/165 ecm q's (searched)
not at the moment but i could get one, cam you think of any thing i might have accidently changed that would cause this ?? ive been burning chips for a while but looked and didn't see anything, the idle is horrible though surging and almost stalling when i put the clutch in
06-08-2009, 07:57 PM
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Re: tunerpro w/165 ecm q's (searched)
The way to check is to get a stock bin and start from scratch, after many changes it is very possible to have strange issues. If you have been keeping notes then start adding back in the most required changes and then start adding the secondary changes one at a time to make sure that everything is okay.
You can pick up stray information without knowing about it or have an unforeseen inter reaction between two changes. I have even made a change and forgot to remove it, and that really messed me up because I thought, it was removed.
If you are using Tunerpro, the compare and difference tools are a big help. I load a past bin or even the original master bin and look at all the differences to see if there are any unwanted changes.
You can pick up stray information without knowing about it or have an unforeseen inter reaction between two changes. I have even made a change and forgot to remove it, and that really messed me up because I thought, it was removed.
If you are using Tunerpro, the compare and difference tools are a big help. I load a past bin or even the original master bin and look at all the differences to see if there are any unwanted changes.
06-08-2009, 09:04 PM
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Re: tunerpro w/165 ecm q's (searched)
thats a great idea i installed ls1 injectors about 3 months ago and i think they may be part of the problem i drove a little more and its is lean even at wot like 15:1 thats even with the injector constant fudged a little for more fuel
also how do your correlate tuning in a specific cell in tuner pro( ie "0" is idle etc ???)with a specific maf table
also how do your correlate tuning in a specific cell in tuner pro( ie "0" is idle etc ???)with a specific maf table
06-09-2009, 01:07 PM
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Re: tunerpro w/165 ecm q's (searched)
A better way is to increase the PE vs RPM numbers to richen the wot.
Are your BLM's the same at cruise and idle?
It is better to work on the cruise first, then the idle, and then wot.
Are your BLM's the same at cruise and idle?
It is better to work on the cruise first, then the idle, and then wot.
06-10-2009, 07:34 PM
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Re: tunerpro w/165 ecm q's (searched)
hey pandin,
today i messed with it and found the following
1 i data logged but dont know how to post it, in the data log the car is idleing hot at 775 rpm and the blm and int are locked at 128 why??? the only wierd thing is the knock counts are stuck at 240 ??? any ideas also the 02 will sit at around .420v and move up and down slightly eneough to add up the crosses really fast but never goes over .450v however comanded afr shows as being 14.2-14.5 so wouldnt that be like 500+ mv (i have a aem wideband simulating a norrowband signal wich is going to the ecm, wideband is reading 18:1 approx) all this time the "learn control" flag show as disabled
this was all done on a stock bin with only timing changes and fan temp changes
arghhhhhhh
today i messed with it and found the following
1 i data logged but dont know how to post it, in the data log the car is idleing hot at 775 rpm and the blm and int are locked at 128 why??? the only wierd thing is the knock counts are stuck at 240 ??? any ideas also the 02 will sit at around .420v and move up and down slightly eneough to add up the crosses really fast but never goes over .450v however comanded afr shows as being 14.2-14.5 so wouldnt that be like 500+ mv (i have a aem wideband simulating a norrowband signal wich is going to the ecm, wideband is reading 18:1 approx) all this time the "learn control" flag show as disabled
this was all done on a stock bin with only timing changes and fan temp changes
arghhhhhhh
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06-11-2009, 06:39 AM
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Re: tunerpro w/165 ecm q's (searched)
Make a copy of it, then using rename add ".txt" (no quotes) to the end of the file name, change nothing else.
After hitting reply in the post, click on the "manage attachments" at the bottom of the page. Using the browse function find your renamed file, highlight it, hit open, and then hit upload.
The file should appear at the bottom under attach files. When you hit submit reply, the file should go with your reply.
Has nothing to do with this issue (normal).
also the 02 will sit at around .420v and move up and down slightly eneough to add up the crosses really fast but never goes over .450v however comanded afr shows as being 14.2-14.5 so wouldnt that be like 500+ mv (i have a aem wideband simulating a norrowband signal wich is going to the ecm, wideband is reading 18:1 approx) all this time the "learn control" flag show as disabled
the WB output. Or reinstall the NB and verify that everything works as should be.
I think you made too big of a jump going to the WB simulated, something is not right with the WB output to the ECM.
Learn is disabled because of open loop.
It has to do with the WB hook up not the tune.
06-11-2009, 05:14 PM
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Re: tunerpro w/165 ecm q's (searched)
here it is as you can see the loop status shows as closed while the blm and int are locked at 128 , this lean idle PRE-DATED the wb i only installed the wideband to make sure that is was infact lean. any suggestions are welcome
im going to try a COMPLETELY stock bin when i get a chance to see if that changes anything
here the log
log2lean.adl.txt
im going to try a COMPLETELY stock bin when i get a chance to see if that changes anything
here the log
log2lean.adl.txt
06-13-2009, 07:29 PM
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Re: tunerpro w/165 ecm q's (searched)
well i reinstalled the nb sensor no change still lean at idle and the 02 sits at 4.44mv at idle im gonna install the wb as soon i can install the new bung for the wb, will the wideband be ok in the ypipe right before the cat??
06-13-2009, 07:38 PM
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Re: tunerpro w/165 ecm q's (searched)
yes that location is fine.
If your NB also reads 4.44mv then that is the default number then you have an open O2 circuit. Check volts to battery ground from the O2 wire and see if it changes from plugged to unplugged O2 sensor, unplugged should be 4.44mv and plugged should be low volts cold and high volts hot. It will actually be swinging at 100 X a sec but a meter will read something avg and be varying. I have a black box with lights that shows the swinging volts rich or lean.
You can test your O2 with a volt meter and a small propane torch, just go from case to wire and heat the tip (removed from car) (hold with vise grips) when it gets hot in 2-3 minutes, you can wave the flame on and off the tip and the volts should follow. There will be some time lag but it should move higher with the flame on the tip and lower with the flame off the tip.
If your NB also reads 4.44mv then that is the default number then you have an open O2 circuit. Check volts to battery ground from the O2 wire and see if it changes from plugged to unplugged O2 sensor, unplugged should be 4.44mv and plugged should be low volts cold and high volts hot. It will actually be swinging at 100 X a sec but a meter will read something avg and be varying. I have a black box with lights that shows the swinging volts rich or lean.
You can test your O2 with a volt meter and a small propane torch, just go from case to wire and heat the tip (removed from car) (hold with vise grips) when it gets hot in 2-3 minutes, you can wave the flame on and off the tip and the volts should follow. There will be some time lag but it should move higher with the flame on the tip and lower with the flame off the tip.
Last edited by pandin; 06-13-2009 at 07:53 PM.
06-13-2009, 10:27 PM
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Re: tunerpro w/165 ecm q's (searched)
it reads 4.44mv only at idle if i rev it it will hit 900mv and at cruise it crosses as it should im pretty sure it is some kind of tuning issue it drives perfect as long as your not idling its fine blm in the 130's cruising. its only on cell 0 arggghh i just made a bin with some fuel added at the idle gm/sec well se if that works ......pandin just out of curiosity how much should i increse voltage at a given gm/sec to bring the mixture that much richer ??? thanks for sticking with me
06-13-2009, 10:28 PM
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Re: tunerpro w/165 ecm q's (searched)
its a heated o2 in case i forgot to mention that so it should not be cooling
06-14-2009, 09:52 AM
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Re: tunerpro w/165 ecm q's (searched)
it reads 4.44mv only at idle if i rev it it will hit 900mv and at cruise it crosses as it should im pretty sure it is some kind of tuning issue it drives perfect as long as your not idling its fine blm in the 130's cruising. its only on cell 0 arggghh i just made a bin with some fuel added at the idle gm/sec well se if that works ......pandin just out of curiosity how much should i increse voltage at a given gm/sec to bring the mixture that much richer ??? thanks for sticking with me
Re: cell 0 - blm's way high
To flatten (lower) the low cells BLM's to match the cruise, I lowered the maf tables in the Idle and off Idle area.
Arap Maf table 1
22.28
17.70
13.93
11.41
8.98
7.10
5.12
3.68
8.36
New Maf table 1
22.28
17.70
13.93
10.87
8.36
6.20
4.49
3.23
8.36
This change keeps the BLM's together idle, off idle, and cruise (55 mph).
Then when changing the Injector constant in the bin, all of the cells blm's change by the same amount, 128 to 116.
Remember that all maf's read a little different new, rebuilt, and old ( I have seen a 35% difference between rebuilt and old, at max air flow), so there will be variations to the exact numbers.
A heated O2 really helps the open/closed issue.
Arap Maf table 1
22.28
17.70
13.93
11.41
8.98
7.10
5.12
3.68
8.36
New Maf table 1
22.28
17.70
13.93
10.87
8.36
6.20
4.49
3.23
8.36
This change keeps the BLM's together idle, off idle, and cruise (55 mph).
Then when changing the Injector constant in the bin, all of the cells blm's change by the same amount, 128 to 116.
Remember that all maf's read a little different new, rebuilt, and old ( I have seen a 35% difference between rebuilt and old, at max air flow), so there will be variations to the exact numbers.
A heated O2 really helps the open/closed issue.
After raising the table 1 values, you should be able to drop the injector constant, just a little, to bring the cruise BLM's down to 128 from the 130's.
Raising the table 1 values richens the air/fuel mix, lowering the blm, and lowering table 1 values leans the air/fuel mix, raising blm's.
06-14-2009, 11:57 AM
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Re: tunerpro w/165 ecm q's (searched)
here it is as you can see the loop status shows as closed while the blm and int are locked at 128 , this lean idle PRE-DATED the wb i only installed the wideband to make sure that is was infact lean. any suggestions are welcome
im going to try a COMPLETELY stock bin when i get a chance to see if that changes anything
here the log
Attachment 179786
im going to try a COMPLETELY stock bin when i get a chance to see if that changes anything
here the log
Attachment 179786
This log shows that the O2 is lean as you said, but do notice the rich fingers. This means that you are pretty close as the getting your swings.
The boundaries (stock 6E) are at "If o2 Volts > 699 mvdc, then O2 is ready" and "If o2 < 199 mvdc then o2 is ready" (Arap 6E). The O2 swings have to go beyond these settings before you get O2 ready and this ready will allow the blm learning to begin.
As shown on this log, there are only two rich fingers above 700 mvdc.
The idle needs more fuel but try the above changes (maf table 1) and see what the difference is.
Re: Enough Closed Loop Info to be Dangerous
Just to give you an idea as to how little of a change in AFR effects the NB output.
While doing some open loop idle tuning, I was trying to get the open loop to match the closed. So I was adjusting the "Open Loop AFR % Chg vs Coolant Temp". This table allows you to match the AFR of the open loop to the closed.
Now here is the observation, at an open loop AFR (commanded) of 14.89, the NB ran in the high 850 to 900 mv. This is the NB at a very rich reading.
So for the next test I lower the "Open Loop AFR % Chg vs Coolant Temp" by one dec number (this is the smallest change that can be made). The commanded open loop AFR dropped to 14.93 and the NB output dropped to around 50 mv which is very lean.
My normal closed loop AFR is 15.00 and the NB O2 swings the full range from 850 to 50 mv.
This shows just how narrow the "Band width" of a NB O2 is. I was surprised that such a small change in the open loop AFR made such a big difference in the NB output.
So when my NB O2 swings in normal closed loop, it is only changing the AFR by .04, this is a very small amount.
I can give the details of my test to any one who would like to try it.
While doing some open loop idle tuning, I was trying to get the open loop to match the closed. So I was adjusting the "Open Loop AFR % Chg vs Coolant Temp". This table allows you to match the AFR of the open loop to the closed.
Now here is the observation, at an open loop AFR (commanded) of 14.89, the NB ran in the high 850 to 900 mv. This is the NB at a very rich reading.
So for the next test I lower the "Open Loop AFR % Chg vs Coolant Temp" by one dec number (this is the smallest change that can be made). The commanded open loop AFR dropped to 14.93 and the NB output dropped to around 50 mv which is very lean.
My normal closed loop AFR is 15.00 and the NB O2 swings the full range from 850 to 50 mv.
This shows just how narrow the "Band width" of a NB O2 is. I was surprised that such a small change in the open loop AFR made such a big difference in the NB output.
So when my NB O2 swings in normal closed loop, it is only changing the AFR by .04, this is a very small amount.
I can give the details of my test to any one who would like to try it.
06-14-2009, 05:47 PM
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Re: tunerpro w/165 ecm q's (searched)
thanks will do gotta take a look at the o2, went out this morning and drove the car only to find the o2 was just sitting @ 452.88 mv all the time no matter what so im not sure if the sensor died or the circuit opened ( or melted to header !!!) or im starting to suspect the ecm may be a little crazy as its has been just randomly diconnecting from tunerpro and i will have to shut off the car and turn the key back on to recconect so YEAH!!! simply restarting tunerpro will not let it reconnect wich makes me think ecm not laptop
06-14-2009, 08:22 PM
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Re: tunerpro w/165 ecm q's (searched)
yeah i need to go back through and recheck all the harness grounds as it has been about 4 or 5 thousand miles since i swapped the tpi in, i installed the new maf table and started it but the o2 is still not working will have to see whats up with that. im thinking i may retry the wideband simulating the narrowband to see if i can get a more definitive reading on the changes im making to the bin. i now think i might actually be getting sick of burning and swapping chips hehe i just have the ecm on the pass floor hehe
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