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DFI and ECMDiscuss all aspects of DFI (Digital Fuel Injection), ECMs (Electronic Control Module), scanners, and diagnostic equipment. Fine tune your Third Gen computer system for top performance.
I decided to to do a DIS swap on my Firebird. The things that compelled me to do so were:
1) I realized my coil might not be sufficient at upper RPM
2) My dizzy kept coming loose for some reason and retarding timing
3) It's cool.
I went with an EDIS-8 ignition, which is stock on like 90-97 Ford V8.
The EDIS-8 module only requires two wires for ECM control. 'PIP' and 'SAW'.
PIP is a 12 volt signal sent by the EDIS module to the ECM to reference spark. The signal is +12 when the coil is actually firing. The ECM uses this to reference RPM.
SAW is a 5 volt signal sent by the ECM to the EDIS module to tell it how much to advance or retard ignition.
If either wire is broken, the EDIS module will continue providing spark at 10* BTDC.
EDIS uses a crankshaft trigger, which is a VR sensor and a 36-1 tooth wheel. (Pictures attached).
EDIS is a 'wasted spark' system, meaning it fires two cylinders at a time that are 360 degrees out.
The EDIS-8 module, coils, VR sensor, toothed wheel, and plug wires can be had for under $200. That's cheaper than an ignition box.
The nicer SBC wheel kit is a bit more money, but is ZERO fabrication. The universal wheel is $40 and you need to make a bracket. The nicer wheel kit is $180.
I have a drawing file for the 'nice wheel', and have spoken with ACP waterjet in Massachusetts. The minimum they will do is a lot of 2 wheels for $160. I decided to just buy the wheel and bracket kit.
I'm probably going to use an old distributor or something to drive the oil pump, since a oil pump driver for this purpose is over $100.
I'm using a Megasquirt ECM, but I imagine this is possible with a stock ECM as well. The Delco hackers might be able to chime in on that.
I'm in if it can be controlled with EBL. Where did you get the parts & reluctor. I've seen one that sandwiches between the HB and pulley, is that how yours installs? It appears to have slots for phasing?
And 360* out describes it perfectly since a cycle is 720* the two firing are TDC power and exhaust.
I'd either start a new thread specifically about EDIS & EBL, or just PM him.
I'm sure after all these years it's a matter of a couple of clicks in tunerpro.
Originally Posted by antman89iroc
Where did you get the parts & reluctor. I've seen one that sandwiches between the HB and pulley, is that how yours installs? It appears to have slots for phasing?
The wheel and bracket (for the VR sensor) in the above picture is sold by a kid on turbo forums. I spoke with him the other day and he's still making them. I might buy a few 'kits' from him just to have around in case he gets hit buy a bus.
DIYautotune also sells wheels, but the wheel this kid makes is hub centric with the factory balancer, and allows phasing as you noted. (although that should really all be done with the sensor bracket). It sandwiches between the balancer and the pulley. Takes about about 1/8".
I don't think I'll have a problem, because I was running a 1/8" pulley spacer anyway to keep the belts aligned. If I needed to I'd just kiss the balancer with the lathe.
Originally Posted by antman89iroc
And 360* out describes it perfectly since a cycle is 720* the two firing are TDC power and exhaust.
Yep. Very simple system, works flawlessly. Just not popular on here.
Are you saying a wasted spark system is not popular or the basic understanding of an internal combustion 4 stroke engine?
Haha, probably both of those.
But seriously, I meant EDIS is not popular on this forum. From doing some searching I only found about 4 members that are confirmed to be using EDIS ignition on their SBC or LT1 engine. None of them post that much on the forum. They probably hang out at turbo forums or yellowbullet.
I don't see any problem with wasted spark. It would be timed before the intake starts to open much unless you have a very wild cam or retarded spark. It certainly satisfies the single coil dwell issue.
The northstar does use a cam sensor, I believe you can get a 730 to work with a 24x reluctor and vortec timing cover. http://lukeskaff.com/?page_id=380
Maybe Rbob will make a schematic if it's possible.
Good info TP. What do you think about a sandwich reluctor at the balancer and a mod dist for the cam signal?
I'd prefer the Gm setup over Edis if possible. Oops am I jacking your thread big A?
The northstar does use a cam sensor, I believe you can get a 730 to work with a 24x reluctor and vortec timing cover. http://lukeskaff.com/?page_id=380
Maybe Rbob will make a schematic if it's possible.
edit:
The vortec timing cover is a no-go for guys like me with 400 blocks and retrofit roller cams. I'm using a special timing cover with a cam button.
If I was doing sequential fuel injection I'd probably be interested in the cam sensor route, but I only have four injector drivers so I can't do sequential.
Looked at Luke's page, so in theory that system is almost plug and play with a GM ECM, you just have a little more complexity with two crank triggers.
Yeah I noticed on Luke's page the project status is "discontinued". I wonder if he didn't finish it and why. The GM route does seem to be a bit more complicated. But if DIS or EDIS can be controlled with the GM ecm we're set.
Another thought, and one I believe I saw on Dynamic EFI basically takes a "wasted spark" system but run it through 6 CNP coils. Presumably firing two at a time. I think that'd be ideal. One of the features I like is not having long wires running across the motor. Both DIS and EDIS still have a common location wire connection albeit 2x4 or 4x2 coils.
Yeah I noticed on Luke's page the project status is "discontinued". I wonder if he didn't finish it and why. The GM route does seem to be a bit more complicated. But if DIS or EDIS can be controlled with the GM ecm we're set.
I think EDIS is a bit more simple, and a larger number of people have adopted it on SBC's. (turbo forums, yellowbullet, msextra forums, etc).
Originally Posted by antman89iroc
Another thought, and one I believe I saw on Dynamic EFI basically takes a "wasted spark" system but run it through 6 CNP coils. Presumably firing two at a time. I think that'd be ideal. One of the features I like is not having long wires running across the motor. Both DIS and EDIS still have a common location wire connection albeit 2x4 or 4x2 coils.
Yep, the diagram is the SFI-6 with the Buick adapter. You don't have to run the coils supplied by EDIS, you can run 8 individual coils, but you will be running twice the amperage when firing two coils. So to do that you need to make some modifications inline, or run two edis modules. (see attached drawings)
On my application since I'm running LT1 manifolds backwards (turbocharger) I need to run the coil packs mounted on the firewall and the wires run under the manifolds. COP/CNP wouldn't be possible in my configuration.
Good info and good job of coming up with that "dual EDIS" module schematic. I understand the mechanical and electrical but wish I were more computer literate. I can see how it all hooks up, the EDIS Pip and Saw channels and the ECM outputs, but I don't know how to make them communicate. That's why I'm interested in your thread and what others are doing. Megasquirt and other aftermarket ECM seem to provide a lot of information or have more universal interfaces but GM didn't make it easy for us. Heck I'm almost surprised that someone figured out how to modify it at all.
Your comment about "making it cool" sorta goes to the heart of it. I could probably buy a MSD box and have a good ignition. But hot-rodding is really about doing it a little different or combining systems that were never meant to work together, combining the best of both worlds. Heck if I just wanted a 400+HP LS Camaro I could go buy it this afternoon (well maybe tomorrow since N Alabama is shut down because of 1/4" of sleet lol) but there's just something about a 26 year old IROC lumpity-lumping into the gas station. Yea it rides a little rough and isn't as tight as it used to be but it "fits" me & reflects my personality. I digress to say the EDIS mod is interesting for practical and other intangible reasons.
Good info and good job of coming up with that "dual EDIS" module schematic. I understand the mechanical and electrical but wish I were more computer literate. I can see how it all hooks up, the EDIS Pip and Saw channels and the ECM outputs, but I don't know how to make them communicate. That's why I'm interested in your thread and what others are doing. Megasquirt and other aftermarket ECM seem to provide a lot of information or have more universal interfaces but GM didn't make it easy for us. Heck I'm almost surprised that someone figured out how to modify it at all.
Your comment about "making it cool" sorta goes to the heart of it. I could probably buy a MSD box and have a good ignition. But hot-rodding is really about doing it a little different or combining systems that were never meant to work together, combining the best of both worlds. Heck if I just wanted a 400+HP LS Camaro I could go buy it this afternoon (well maybe tomorrow since N Alabama is shut down because of 1/4" of sleet lol) but there's just something about a 26 year old IROC lumpity-lumping into the gas station. Yea it rides a little rough and isn't as tight as it used to be but it "fits" me & reflects my personality. I digress to say the EDIS mod is interesting for practical and other intangible reasons.
Have you PM'd RBob or started a thread regarding EDIS on Stock Delco ECM or EBL? Based on what I've read it was stated to be easy.
These modules are pretty cheap both from junkyards an ebay. Guys could run 2-wire CNP coils mounted on their valve covers.
It would also make running an LSx motor with a '165, '730, or EBL pretty easy which I think would open up a larger market for those ECM users. Before I went with the MS, one of the things that prevented me from diving into the LSx stuff was I had no interest in the electronics. It would be nice to be able to change engines if your SBC explodes and go with a 6.0 or something without having to change any of the electronics / management.
Have you PM'd RBob or started a thread regarding EDIS on Stock Delco ECM or EBL? Based on what I've read it was stated to be easy.
These modules are pretty cheap both from junkyards an ebay. Guys could run 2-wire CNP coils mounted on their valve covers.
It would also make running an LSx motor with a '165, '730, or EBL pretty easy which I think would open up a larger market for those ECM users. Before I went with the MS, one of the things that prevented me from diving into the LSx stuff was I had no interest in the electronics. It would be nice to be able to change engines if your SBC explodes and go with a 6.0 or something without having to change any of the electronics / management.
Just my opinion.
-- Joe
Good points Joe and no I haven't done anything yet. I'm still interested in your project and prioritizing what my next project should be. Still a lot to do on my old 'roc.
I have been running EDIS on my twin turbo setup for a few years now. I use Accel DFI to control it, but it works great. The only thing I don't like about it is that you have to run another ignition controller for rev limiting and 2-steps. The EDIS signal can't be interrupted and the rev limiting needs to be done post EDIS module (if that makes sense) Otherwise its a solid setup and has that cool factor when you pop the hood... if a twin turbo small block wasn't enough.
I have been running EDIS on my twin turbo setup for a few years now. I use Accel DFI to control it, but it works great. The only thing I don't like about it is that you have to run another ignition controller for rev limiting and 2-steps. The EDIS signal can't be interrupted and the rev limiting needs to be done post EDIS module (if that makes sense) Otherwise its a solid setup and has that cool factor when you pop the hood... if a twin turbo small block wasn't enough.
Hello,
Yeah if you interrupt the EDIS it will simply continue at the same advance setting until the timeout period, in which case it will then do 10* BTDC.
I've seen a few different boxes that work with EDIS to provide spark RPM limit. Have you used any?
Otherwise, one can just do a fuel cut like the OEM stuff I guess.
Youre right, it will kick it to 10 degrees until the module is powered down.
I run an DIS ignition box "post" EDIS module that modifies the signal for 2-step and such just to keep the EDIS module happy. The module never knows its on the rev limiter it just keeps triggering as usual. Its an older Accel DIS ignition box, but seems to work pretty well.
If I really needed just a top end rev limiter I could just kill the fuel, but I really wanted the 2-step for boost building.
Youre right, it will kick it to 10 degrees until the module is powered down.
I run an DIS ignition box "post" EDIS module that modifies the signal for 2-step and such just to keep the EDIS module happy. The module never knows its on the rev limiter it just keeps triggering as usual. Its an older Accel DIS ignition box, but seems to work pretty well.
If I really needed just a top end rev limiter I could just kill the fuel, but I really wanted the 2-step for boost building.
Yeah Autosportlabs makes one that the MS guys tend to use on the EDIS cars. I'd just use the fuel cut and save money. I ran fuel cut rev limit for over 10 years when I ran the stock ECM's.
Waiting for my crank trigger to show up in the mail. Then I just have to splice some wires. I think I'm going to make a bracket and mount the coils on the firewall in the dead center of the engine.
The EDIS is not compatible with a Delco ECM, the signals are too different. There has been some speculation about modifying the code to modify the signals appropriatly, but so far that's all it is, speculation. No one one has done it so far since the GM DIS is readily available and easy to adapt.
The Northstar coil pack does not need the cam sensor to operate. It needs 2 of the 3 sensors to operate correctly. Most people that swap these ignition systems into their vehicles (actually all I've seen so far) use the two crank sensors.
The Northstar trigger wheel is a special trigger wheel and based on the spacing of the notches and the timing between the two sensors the ignition modules knows where in the firing cycle the engine is.
There was an extensive thread in the DIY PROM forum from someone who used the Northstar system in their SBC. I don't recall the name of the poster, and he did have some issues at first, but it was tune related finding the correct offsets and min max timing values to get it to work correctly.
The EDIS is not compatible with a Delco ECM, the signals are too different. There has been some speculation about modifying the code to modify the signals appropriatly, but so far that's all it is, speculation. No one one has done it so far since the GM DIS is readily available and easy to adapt.
The Northstar coil pack does not need the cam sensor to operate. It needs 2 of the 3 sensors to operate correctly. Most people that swap these ignition systems into their vehicles (actually all I've seen so far) use the two crank sensors.
The Northstar trigger wheel is a special trigger wheel and based on the spacing of the notches and the timing between the two sensors the ignition modules knows where in the firing cycle the engine is.
There was an extensive thread in the DIY PROM forum from someone who used the Northstar system in their SBC. I don't recall the name of the poster, and he did have some issues at first, but it was tune related finding the correct offsets and min max timing values to get it to work correctly.
Street Lethal is working on putting Northstar on his SBC as well. Nothing wrong with that system.
The reason I went with EDIS was pretty much the same reason most people use EDIS over Northstar, simplicity and cost.
EDIS only requires a crank trigger, and 36-1 crank trigger kits are readily available for SBC (and just about everything else). Literally just have to bolt the wheel and bracket on. No fabrication.
And the EDIS-8 module itself + coils are dirt cheap.
The Northstar is a bit more complex needing two inputs, and I didn't see a crank trigger kit for SBC when I did a basic google search. Also, the cost of the northstar stuff seemed a little bit more expensive, and information on using it was sparse. (luke's article being the most complete yet abandoned).
I'm surprised a factory ECM can't drive an EDIS, especially with the man himself said over 10 years ago it would be simple. I think maybe it's just more lack of demand. I suspect that guys wanting to do DIS with Delco electronics are probably jumping to LSx PCM's and skipping the 80's stuff all together.
Street Lethal is working on putting Northstar on his SBC as well. Nothing wrong with that system.
The reason I went with EDIS was pretty much the same reason most people use EDIS over Northstar, simplicity and cost.
EDIS only requires a crank trigger, and 36-1 crank trigger kits are readily available for SBC (and just about everything else). Literally just have to bolt the wheel and bracket on. No fabrication.
And the EDIS-8 module itself + coils are dirt cheap.
The Northstar is a bit more complex needing two inputs, and I didn't see a crank trigger kit for SBC when I did a basic google search. Also, the cost of the northstar stuff seemed a little bit more expensive, and information on using it was sparse. (luke's article being the most complete yet abandoned).
I'm surprised a factory ECM can't drive an EDIS, especially with the man himself said over 10 years ago it would be simple. I think maybe it's just more lack of demand. I suspect that guys wanting to do DIS with Delco electronics are probably jumping to LSx PCM's and skipping the 80's stuff all together.
-- Joe
Oh I'm well aware of both systems and what they use to operate.
You are correct there are no off the shelf kits (that I have found anyway) to use the Northstar coil pack on other engines, which is why I see so few of these systems being adapted, they just don't have the support that the EDIS parts do. If GM would have instead used a system more like the LT5, that uses a much simpler crank trigger and overall system, I think there would be more support for this in the V8 market.
The 4cyl and 6 cyl system both use the same trigger wheel, which is similar to the LT5 trigger wheel. Then GM decided to go way out into left field with the Northstar trigger wheel, while it's amazing how it works and I can see how timing can be improved greatly over the old system, it was only used on that one engine (that I know of).
I have Northstar coil pack on my shelf that is slated to go on one of two projects, if I get a second system I might put one on each.
Oh I'm well aware of both systems and what they use to operate.
You are correct there are no off the shelf kits (that I have found anyway) to use the Northstar coil pack on other engines, which is why I see so few of these systems being adapted, they just don't have the support that the EDIS parts do. If GM would have instead used a system more like the LT5, that uses a much simpler crank trigger and overall system, I think there would be more support for this in the V8 market.
The 4cyl and 6 cyl system both use the same trigger wheel, which is similar to the LT5 trigger wheel. Then GM decided to go way out into left field with the Northstar trigger wheel, while it's amazing how it works and I can see how timing can be improved greatly over the old system, it was only used on that one engine (that I know of).
I have Northstar coil pack on my shelf that is slated to go on one of two projects, if I get a second system I might put one on each.
Well, since we're in agreement that the Northstar stuff is somewhat complex and doesn't have much support outside of it's original application, I think I'll maintain my position on using EDIS at this point.
I'd really love to see one of the Delco hacker's get it working on a stock ECM. Again, I think it would even make things like LSx swaps easier in thirdgens and C4's since people would be able to keep the electronics they are used to tuning. Most members don't mind swapping parts, but fabricating reluctor wheels and sensors isn't the same as welding up an exhaust.
Back to EDIS and Delco, the PIP wire tells the ECM engine speed. This is 12v square wave. This is quite simple, +12 while the coil is firing, then 0 volts. The duration of time is directly related to engine speed.
The SAW signal is just a pulsewidth, with the duration of the pulse directly related to the amount of commanded degrees. When the ECM sees PIP go to zero volts, it energizes SAW for xxx usec based on desired advance.
Surely the Delco ecm has an input that can not only read voltage but do so in a timer loop, and surely it also has an output pin that can be time pulsed.
The problem as I see it is finding someone who can code it up.
Welded up a bracket to hold the coils. I took two coil brackets from a late 90s crown vic, cut 'em up and welded them together. This will mount the coils to the firewall in the area where the distributor would be.
I was doing some more reading on EDIS and found this functionality:
The EDIS module has the capability of performing recurring spark, more commonly referred to as Multiple Spark Discharge. The latter is usually associated with CD ignition boxes. This feature was introduced with the 1990 1.9L Escort/Tracer engine. The ECU enables the MSD below 1800RPM on these engines. To signal to the EDIS module that MSD is desired, the SAW is lengthened by 2048us on 4/6/8 cylinder units, and 1024us on 10 cylinder units. The EDIS module can achieve up to 3 sparks per cylinder event using this feature.
Sorry Dom, I didn't see this message until just now.
What do you mean exactly? The EDIS-8 box IS an ignition module. It simply reports RPM and takes advance instructions from the ECM.
What ECM does the ZR1 use, and what are the requirements? I vaguely remember those engines have some unique vtec like attributes, correct?
-- Joe
No I was just looking to see if there was a "reciprocal" or male version of the 14pin harness connection used for the LT-5 ICM.
The LT-5 uses 3 ECMs depending on year altho any of them will work w any MY
LT-5. The 92 I have uses a 3993. There are 4 different Mask IDs.
$8E for 90, $AF for 91, $D0 for 92, and $F0 for 93-95. Each of these has an "A" revision GM did for some performance and driveability enhancements.
No VTEC altho a 2Gen motor did have a version of VTEC designed for it. Someone at Lingenfelter actually has built one of these and installed it into a C4 ZR-1. Supposed to be 475hp out of a 5.7L NA motor. Would have been glorious.
WOW anesthes what a great idea using the ford coils, wish i had come across this sooner. Im building an LT1 to go back in the place of a tune port motor i put in my caprice. Im using the Northstar setup. there is a lot on Thirdgen about the northstar stuff just search "Do away with the dizzy". like to know how the EDIS goes for you, i might use the it in my truck. jonarotz i like the setup very clean, seen most people mount it on the valve cover. me i have lots of room so i made a bracket that mounts the northstar system where the distributor was. good luck on this hope it works well.
I wanted to put the coils behind the intake but with the stealthram they don't quite fit. Here is a test fit of the coil bracket I made from a couple of crown vic brackets.
Ordered a 8mm plug wire set no boots on the plug side, so I can cut to fit and crimp 90* boots on. So the plug wire arrangement should basically be like:
I have a 95 Trans Am / 6speed and was hoping someone can tell me if its possible to use the northstar coils and trigger wheel to totally remove the optispark without having to install a distributor at the back of the engine.
I currently have the LTCC coil per cylinder system but moisture continues to get in the opti as I live in Miami, Florida with very very high moisture in the air.
I found some info on using the mastercraft lt1 ltr crank position sensor but im unsure how I would put everything together. Would I need a different computer?
I have a 95 Trans Am / 6speed and was hoping someone can tell me if its possible to use the northstar coils and trigger wheel to totally remove the optispark without having to install a distributor at the back of the engine.
I currently have the LTCC coil per cylinder system but moisture continues to get in the opti as I live in Miami, Florida with very very high moisture in the air.
I found some info on using the mastercraft lt1 ltr crank position sensor but im unsure how I would put everything together. Would I need a different computer?
You should probably start a new post. Using Ford EDIS electronics is nothing like Northstar or GM DIS. I think Street Lethal has a v8 DIS setup working.
I chose EDIS because the crank wheel is easily obtainable (no fabrication), and it just 'works' with most aftermarket computers.
over on $59 there was a thread about what believe was this box and getting it to work with the gm ecm, and I believe it was turbo dig that did most of the code work and said it's probably possible, but nothing he wanted to get into.
did you get it running? the 93 we got going sure pulled clean.
is there a build thread? I'd like to check it out. I still have 2 wheels cut to slide over the crank pulley and tack weld on my tpi car but new job killed my car tuning and building for like 5 years lol the do away with dizzy was just a fun project. I still remember when someone posted up saying, hey you can't use a dial back timing light for wasted speak. talk about a relief yet wanna throw the light across the yard lol.
03-03-2015, 09:52 PM
got my wheels rolling man 
