RBob

iTrader: (1)

No, the purple wire from the TT-1 would go to the ECM's pin D7. that is the NB input to the ECM for closed loop.

RBob.

kataklysm01

So you're supposed to connect both the orange and purple wires to the EBL?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Depends upon what you want to do. The orange wire is a WB only output that gets connected to the terminal strip on the EBL board. This allows the WB signal to be used for data logging and the auto VE Learn feature of the WUD.

The purple wire of the TT-1 can be used as either a WB output (to a gauge), or as a NB output to simulate a NB O2 sensor signal. This can be used for closed loop and is wired to the ECM in place of the stock NB signal.

The best set up is to leave the stock NB O2 in place. And install the WB down stream away from engine heat. This way can run the ECM in closed loop via the NB O2. Or lock it in open loop and use the WB for VE Learns.

Then once the AFR is good switch back to closed loop. The WB can remain in place and it's value checked from time to time and also used for additional tuning. It helps quite a bit when tuning in the AE.

RBob.

kataklysm01

I'm looking through and how does this work? Option word 2 bit 0 N/V.

The definition goes: N/V - Calculate N/V ratio, allows ECM to know transmission gear. Only valid when the stick transmission is selected

So what is the purpose?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The EBL ECM can use it for the PE vs SA adder. Can use more PE SA in lower gears, tapering it off as a higher gear is used.

The WUD will display the gear in use.

RBob.

kataklysm01

Alright, now I'm confused about BPC, cold airflow and lastly the IAT sensor.

When running 5.7L TB for the Holly 670, we installed a 4 inch cold air intake. Massive difference, the jeep was barely drivable it was just too lean overall. I was using the numbers 412 (401 @.060), 61#, and 12psi in the EBL utility for a result of 167. I didn't change anything, just did a bunch of VE learns to get the ECM to enrich the VE. Very little change, but keep reading it gets better.

Then yesterday I put the high flow fuel pump and Holly 670. I used the 412, 80#, 15psi for a BPC table of 113. I get out of the parking lot and my BLM is at 165, I'm huffing and puffing with AFRs as high as 17 to 19. I do a bunch of learns and I max out the VE table at 100 from 50 MAP and up at pretty much any rpm. So at this point I'm thinking, not enough fuel, so today I put a gauge on there and set the pressure at 26 psi.

So, I change the BPC table to 85 from the new values, and it's even worse. At this point, I'm scratching my head so hard I'm scraping bone.

So, I instinctively start screwing around with the BPC table. The higher the number and the VE learn starts to substract from the VE table. The stock 2012 bin (7.4 manual) has like 134, playing around that's like 13 psi on a 80# with 454 for 302HP. So I try that value and things improve.

I end up putting something like 160 in there just to see and the Jeep runs considerably better. So what's the scoop? Is there some link or write up out there about how this works? Cause right now I have alot more cold air and the capacity for crazy fueling, yet using the BPC table with the proper values I'm wwaaayyyy off and I have to run numbers as if I had low FP and tiny injectors to be able to just cruise around, forget AE or WOT so far.

Another thing, I installed the IAT sensor. I've enabled the MALF bit codes. What tables do I modify to take advantage of it? I'm thinking the IAT/CTS blend filter, I set it at what? Currently the whole table is at 100%.
I've found this tread that seems to address this last topic.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...nt-bias-q.html



thanks
François

RBob

iTrader: (1)

The Holley injectors are rated at 21 psi. So they are likely 66 #/hr at 13 psi.

RBob.

kataklysm01

This Holley I got from Howell. Supposed to be fitted with 80#.

http://howellefi.com/tbi-unit-670-cf...-injector.html

So, if I have to adjust the BPC table for numbers that don't match the EBL Utility, especially higher numbers. What does that mean ?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

This means that the injectors don't flow what is advertised. Unless the fuel pressure at which the injectors are rated is taken into account. This is the same with the "GM injectors that flow 90 #/hr." Which is at 14.7 psi. That makes them an 80.5 #/hr injector at the GM specified 13 psi fuel pressure.

The ECM running with the high BLM isn't lying to you.

RBob.

kataklysm01

Gotcha, I'm gonna call Howell tomorrow to find out the true numbers.

Confirmed and now I understand what you were saying. Man it took me a long time to figure that.

http://www.holley.com/data/TechServi...low%20Data.pdf
Called and confirmed with Holley, and they rate their injectors at 21 psi, as can be seen in the pdf above. So it's 80# at 21 psi. That makes much more sense. So it's only a 65 or so... why would someone rate an injector at 21psi?

So, 412, 26psi, 64# = 108 or so. Will have to give that a try or use the BPC figures that gives me the best drivability.

I commend your patience RBob. You gotta be hitting the wall with your head all day long with trying to explain stuff to guys like me. You're efforts are not going unnoticed. There is a special place in heaven for you, right next to the Multiport boys. ;p

kataklysm01

Well, I was really crossing my fingers about going out for a tuning run tonight. I replaced my cap/rotor and wires this weekend. Did a bunch of learns in Open Loop and whatayaknow, stumbling and backfiring is completely gone at any range/map. I'm using a BPC of 122 at the moment and am maxing out the VE in some areas. The VE curve looks like crap too, but the truck drives really well except at idle where is surges a little. So I'll increase the fuel pressure and correct the BPC and adjust a few things. Once the 3" exhaust is on there it should really rock.

Can someone explain/verify what I think the overflow in EBL means? The engine wants more fuel at a certain RPM/MAP, and has reached 100% VE so I have to increase injector flow, correct BPC for new flow and constants. Then do another round of learns. Correct?

I should add that I set the IAT/CTS blend at 75% and it seems to run ok so far. Temp was -5 Celcius tonight.

Once I have all that under control I can convert from mechanical advance to computer controlled. That should be interesting.

I noticed my voltage drops with lights on and the cooling fan comes on at idle. The jeep nearly stalls from the drop. I'll check electrical wires, something could have melted or touching a hotspot. The alternator is fairly new, I hope I didn't kill it with 6k revs tonight.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

You will want to increase the injector flow but leave the BPC alone. Think of the BPC value as a centering device for the VE tables. IOW, if you increase the injector flow and adjust the BPC to that higher flow, the VE% in the table will remain the same (basically).

The overflow on the WUD means that areas of the VE table are hitting 100%+ on the corrections. It is just a note to the tuner so that he/she doesn't miss this.

There is an IAC bump for when the fan turns on, as long as it is ECM controlled. Increase it until it dips as little as possible, and doesn't surge.

IAC - Fan on Bump steps

RBob.

kataklysm01

Wow, I don't know what I did... but, my idle is surging like nuts in open loop now. My last run to work, here's how it went.

Start the truck, +10C, immediate idle at 14.* AFR, back out of drive way, get on road, AFR falls to 10.0 and stays between 10 and 12 driving down the road. It smells like fuel.

It warms up and cruising moves to the 14 range again. When I stopped and idling, it idles on the rich side around 13.0 14.0 but the rpm jumps between 750 and 1000. And it idled fine two weeks ago.

I must have changed some little settings that I don't remember. I didnt' play with any tables other than BPC, VE, and IAT/CTS (75%).
Would this be solely a VE matter? What else comes into play here. I see the AE light coming on during idle and then the surge.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Why/how did you arive at that #?

I once thought of modifying that blend %'s but chose not to. I use the stock L03 values.

you may be able to tame the surge. When surge ofccurs is the fueling in "synch" or does it move to asynch?

There may be excessive SA compensation occurring. Consider reducing those values a little at a time. Flatten all surrounding cells you idle in to same VE value. Lock the Sa idle option. I idle at 20dA.

kataklysm01

The IAT/CTS is a complete guess. I have no idea what to set that to. I'm just trying to take advantage of the IAT sensor I installed.

For the idle surge, it runs in Synch during idle.

As far as SA, I'm using my mechanical/vaccum advance at the moment.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

A last resort may be to set the IAC steps to zero at idle RPM and above and below 200rpms and let engine idle on throttle stop screw.

Idle surge happens for a good reason. could be dirty injectors, IAC activity(check log), lean, stall saver, changing SA and or excessive SA compensation.

kataklysm01

What should the voltages be for IGN and PMP? My IGN is varying between 13.3-13.8V while idling, the PMP is 14.3-14.5V. While driving, IGN is more around 12.8-13.2V, the PMP more around 14.2-14.3V.

These readings are on a cold morning, with headlights and probably the heather on.

Are these variations normal? Want to eliminiate the alternator as a source of problem. I have bad luck with alternators.

kataklysm01

Well, I spent an hour in the dark, cold and snow flakes last night working on this surging idle. I'd start the jeep, turn the idle screw until the surging stopped. Once in a while thawing my hands over the headers. I did some open loop idle learns at the same time to be sure the fueling in the area was correct. I got the IAC steps down to the 0-15 range on a warm engine. I can't idle below 900rpm or the surging starts again, and the lower I go, the worse it gets. In the 900 range, it may bounce in that area a bit from 900-1000. It will be steady and then bounce some. I'll keep it like that for a while and see how it is. If I remember correctly, Howell had me idling at 1000rpm with the 360(previous engine), wether or not that was intentional.

I haven't done the cold engine start after what I did above, that will be interesting too. I had noticed that the cold start IAC was right at 145 (max), so maybe that explains the rich starts and go. It wanted more air to lean it out and the IAC being maxed could not provide. I also added 40 (20 then added 10 then another 10)to all entries of the IAC min steps as mentionned in some posts. It maxes out the IAC in the very cold area (145).

I'm eager to see what the effect of the 3 inch exhaust is going to have on all this.

The EBL and Tunerpro really shine when you can do all this stuff and offset entire tables, flash right away. Like when the other day I upped the BPC by 10 points and offset the whole VE tables by the same percentage. Swithing chips in the dark with frozen hands would be such a pita, the computer would have to be accessible with stuff everywhere, screw all that. EBL rules.

RBob

iTrader: (1)

A .5V IGN variation while idling is a bit much. It has the same variation while driving. If the variation is due to the engine RPM varying, such as at idle, that can happen. Do a key-on, engine-off and jiggle the ignition key.

See if that causes the voltage to vary. I've seen this when the ignition switch starts to go bad.

A varying IGN voltage at idle can also cause the idle speed to vary. Can eliminate that by:

Setting to 25.5V: IAC - Volt Drop for Steps
Setting to 0 steps: IAC - Steps for Low BatV

Actually, doing one or the other alone should do the trick.

RBob.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Would proportional gains come into play here? I think so. What fuel pressure and what size injectors? See my post a while back and or search for others including the sticky in DIY Prom.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...tion-idle.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...ng-points.html

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...e-mv-idle.html

kataklysm01

Thanks RBob, I'll check that out.

Ronny, I have the Holley 670 with 80lbs rated at 21psi, but I tested the pressure and the gauge was more like 25-26psi. So that's more like 90# or so. I'm reading all your links, thanks.

Freaking alternators are all made in China. Last year I bought some high amp Powermaster or something like that (as in not a cheap one) and I swapped it three times. The first two new ones were dead out of the box!

kataklysm01

Interesting about the Proportional Gain. Looking through the EBL material, there are:

PRP - Gain vs O2 Error
PRP - Gain Multiplier vs Airflow
PRP - Duration vs O2 Error
PRP - Duration Offset vs Airflow
PRP - Prop Gain Offset for Idle
PRP - Prop Gain Duration for Idle

I looked at the descriptions of them all. So, which ones should be modified first and by hom much increments? I imagine any change in one compounds the effect of the others somehow. Given this is definitely not a stock engine.

P.S.

finding some threads about this:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...-ebl-have.html

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

There is a complete write up in stickies on PG's. Author Raucher.

kataklysm01

Got it; http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/papers/747fuel.txt

From what I understand, Proportional Gain is only active if idling in closed loop since it uses the NB values. I'll start playing with that tonight.

thanks

kataklysm01

Well, I might have won a battle if not the war. Analysing the VE table I realized that the VE learn was worsening the idle surge issue. That maybe the bowl symptom that some mention. It was ever increasing at every learn the peak at 900rpm 40 map and kept removing fuel at 800rpm 35 map so it was bouncing back and forth. I smoothed it by bringing up the dip and flattening the peek and was able to idle in open loop at 13.8-14.5 AFR and stay from 850-950rpm. So, I'll leave it like that for now and see how it handles.

91z406

Hello Bob, Im having an issue with startup, car acts like it has a carburetor once it fires it rusn good just seems to start real hard but timings is pretty good it turns over pretty good. What you think I should do with the tune to figure this out?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

During cranking and up until 400 RPM is reached, the base distributor timing is used. On modified engines additional base timing can be helpful. Want the engine to catch while cold, and not kick back when hot.

Just change the calibrations "SA - Initial SA" value to match the base setting.

Other things are IAC steps at key-on, cranking AFR, and the cranking PW multiplier.

RBob.

91z406

Another thing is Im running 11.3 Comp should I Add some higher Octane fuel or can i get by with pump gas

xch3no2

Look with an engine like that, don't you want to determine minimum fuel needs from the top down?

How did you become in possession of a 11.3:1 engine and no idea how to set up it's FI or timing?
Really ought to start your own thread.

Are you just wasting everybody's time?...gimp the timing to run pump gas or dial it in for max HP on racegas, nobody online can jump in your shoes, it takes at least some experience to handle engine building and tuning.

91z406

Ok with rude comments like you just put it, How can I learn? so why don't you let me ask the question and if you don't like it ask in a respectful way for me to do it another way ok. I built this motor i'm trying to do the best i can to learn to tune it, You need a motor to learn to tune right???????? so it does not matter how I got it, I cant learn it if i don't have it don't you agree.

xch3no2

It's called hijacking a thread, and that is what's rude.

Get yourself some how-to study material from Lingenfelter, Vizard or the ilk.
Read RBob's site till you memorize it, ask questions in your own thread.

91z406

Well its obvious that you didnt read what the person said that started this thread so your the one hijacking it so Unless your a MOD let me ask Bob who I purchased the EBL from, The noob questions the thread states.

xch3no2

THE community EBL thread.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-...uning-ebl.html

Feel free to start your own.

Jabpir8

Back at one post from BOBr at the beginning of this post:
"Both. Start with closed loop (as mentioned in your other thread) VE Learns. Then move on to open loop auto VE Learns."


While I am still currently working on my modified Buick RMW (65lbs/h injectors at 18psi, mild cam, swirl port heads, headers, NB O2 sensor), I have also decided to adapt it to work with E85 as it is half gasoline price in here !
EBL and tuner pro offer so many parameter I feel lost !


So on this one sentence above I never considered you could do auto VE learn in open loop !!? what is that ?

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I suspect you will need larger injectors A/F for E85 I think is 7.5/1? E10 is 14.13 I think?
TBI injectors for E85 were used in Mex and Brazil I read.

Is your fuel system going to tolerate that heavy mix of ethanol(corrosive)?

At stoich your WB will read 14.7/1 unless you correct it.

I believe OL VE is using the WB for correction and not the NB.