Cooling Discuss all of the aspects of cooling that you can think of! Radiators, transmissions, electric fans, etc.

Aftermarket fans

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 04-09-2022, 02:53 PM
  #101  
Supreme Member

 
1989karr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 2,292
Received 157 Likes on 146 Posts
Car: 89' Firebird
Engine: 3.4L V-6
Transmission: 700-R4
Axle/Gears: Whatever came stock!
Re: Aftermarket fans

Best place for me was ebay. Make sure it fits all your car’s specifics though
Old 04-09-2022, 04:36 PM
  #102  
Member
Thread Starter
 
BBCSwap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 317
Received 42 Likes on 34 Posts
Engine: SBC 400 Carb
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 28 spline 323 gears
Re: Aftermarket fans

Does it have to be from a 91 350 TPI? Can it be different years or 305 TBI? 6 cylinder? I looked on ebay it looks like I might be able to find the ECM easier than the PROM. I don't have the OEM chip so I can't compare #'s.
Old 04-10-2022, 11:33 AM
  #103  
Supreme Member

 
1989karr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 2,292
Received 157 Likes on 146 Posts
Car: 89' Firebird
Engine: 3.4L V-6
Transmission: 700-R4
Axle/Gears: Whatever came stock!
Re: Aftermarket fans

Originally Posted by BBCSwap
Does it have to be from a 91 350 TPI? Can it be different years or 305 TBI? 6 cylinder? I looked on ebay it looks like I might be able to find the ECM easier than the PROM. I don't have the OEM chip so I can't compare #'s.

the EVM should be fine. Unless you want to start fresh and change both


the PROM has to be specific…I think it can be a 90-92 TPI 350 auto for yours. Yours is i think speed density not MAF


other PROMS wont wprk correctly…its kinda specific
Old 04-10-2022, 11:38 AM
  #104  
Supreme Member

 
1989karr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 2,292
Received 157 Likes on 146 Posts
Car: 89' Firebird
Engine: 3.4L V-6
Transmission: 700-R4
Axle/Gears: Whatever came stock!
Re: Aftermarket fans

I see one for sale on ebay but it looks like its missing the blue plastic housing which locks it into place. Im mot sure if thats absolutely necessary thoughq or if its been messed arpund with
Old 04-10-2022, 11:53 AM
  #105  
Member
Thread Starter
 
BBCSwap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 317
Received 42 Likes on 34 Posts
Engine: SBC 400 Carb
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 28 spline 323 gears
Re: Aftermarket fans

Yeh, I red something about MAF vs Speed Density this morning. The only one I saw listed for 350 TPI is $175. The only 350's I saw were TBI. Did I miss some? I can buy a used ECM w PROM for $100.
Old 04-10-2022, 11:56 AM
  #106  
Member
Thread Starter
 
BBCSwap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 317
Received 42 Likes on 34 Posts
Engine: SBC 400 Carb
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 28 spline 323 gears
Re: Aftermarket fans

What do you think of this? It says everything is set to OE settings unless I want something changed. I would lower the temp turn on fan but that's it.

https://www.autozone.com/engine-mana...100/536024_0_0
Old 04-10-2022, 12:44 PM
  #107  
Supreme Member

 
1989karr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 2,292
Received 157 Likes on 146 Posts
Car: 89' Firebird
Engine: 3.4L V-6
Transmission: 700-R4
Axle/Gears: Whatever came stock!
Re: Aftermarket fans

I never heard of the autozone one…thats cheap though.

everyone says go used though so maybe its not good?

this is the one i saw



Old 04-11-2022, 07:50 AM
  #108  
Member
Thread Starter
 
BBCSwap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 317
Received 42 Likes on 34 Posts
Engine: SBC 400 Carb
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 28 spline 323 gears
Re: Aftermarket fans

I found a ECM with OE PROM chip out of a 91 Z28 350 TPI for $140. Should have it in a couple days. I hope this takes care of the fan issue. I also have a coolant temp switch for the secondary fan coming for the right head that turns on at 210 and off at 195. I will up date once I have it in and try a few things.
Old 04-12-2022, 01:20 PM
  #109  
Supreme Member

 
1989karr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 2,292
Received 157 Likes on 146 Posts
Car: 89' Firebird
Engine: 3.4L V-6
Transmission: 700-R4
Axle/Gears: Whatever came stock!
Re: Aftermarket fans

let us know how it goes!!
Old 04-14-2022, 06:53 AM
  #110  
Supreme Member

iTrader: (3)
 
KITT1983's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 2,928
Received 18 Likes on 14 Posts
Car: 1983 Pontiac Trans Am Daytona 500
Engine: Crossfire 305ci V8
Transmission: Jasper 700R4 4 speed Automatic
Axle/Gears: 3.23 limited slip/posi
Re: Aftermarket fans

I'm interested too
Old 04-17-2022, 01:22 PM
  #111  
Member
Thread Starter
 
BBCSwap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 317
Received 42 Likes on 34 Posts
Engine: SBC 400 Carb
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 28 spline 323 gears
Re: Aftermarket fans

I put the new(used) ECM w PROM in and a new temp switch in the right head. On at 210 & off at 195. I started it and let it run. The thermostat opened and the fans did not come on like they did before. So that seamed to solve one problem. I let it run and the temp started going up. When it was at about 210-220 the fan still had not come on. I started fiddling with the relays and the secondary fan came on when I would hold the relay/plug just right. I switched relays and the secondary stayed on and temp came down. a/c off the whole time. I took it for a ride and the temp never went above 195. It had a very bad engine miss. I came back home both fans were on and I found one of the wire/plug to an injector wasn't on. I put that on and went for another ride. No more miss. I stepped down on the gas pretty hard from a stop and got a one wheel peel. It hit second and kept spinning. Weren't all Z28's posi? When I pulled in the pole barn this time & popped the hood power steering fluid was spraying out the pressure fitting. Had a nice trail of oil in the barn and a puddle underneath. Got that fixed. I will have to try it out some more to make sure the fans are working properly.
Old 04-18-2022, 10:00 AM
  #112  
Member
Thread Starter
 
BBCSwap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 317
Received 42 Likes on 34 Posts
Engine: SBC 400 Carb
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 28 spline 323 gears
Re: Aftermarket fans

I started it this morning. The coolant temp switch in the right head turned the secondary fan on at about 180, a little to early for me. It is supposed to come on at 210 & off at 195. It never did shut off. It kept the engine temp at the 195ish. I disconnected the wire to the temp switch and the fan shut off. I let it run, temp got to about 240 and the primary fan came on. When it got to about 220 the primary fan shut off. I let it cycle like this 3 times and it did the same thing each time. I didn't try the a/c.
Old 04-18-2022, 01:01 PM
  #113  
Supreme Member

 
1989karr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 2,292
Received 157 Likes on 146 Posts
Car: 89' Firebird
Engine: 3.4L V-6
Transmission: 700-R4
Axle/Gears: Whatever came stock!
Re: Aftermarket fans

Well, it sounds like its more less somewhat working and it was that aftermarket PROM / ecm that was messing it up!
As far as the switch activated fan... sounds like a bad switch... what switch is in there?


I got a replacement from Oreilly's if I recall, part number TS85 I think it comes on a bit after 220...maybe 230??..... so not the coldest switch but its better than stock.....I heard if temps stay under 200 though then thats bad for these motors cause the condensation doesnt boil off..... I have mine wired a bit weird but the switch activates both fans and the ECM activation is actually a secondary back up in case the switch fails and also for the ac.
Old 04-18-2022, 03:06 PM
  #114  
Supreme Member

 
Kingtal0n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Miami
Posts: 3,272
Received 70 Likes on 61 Posts
Car: 240sx
Engine: whatever works
Transmission: 4l80e this year
Axle/Gears: 3.512
Re: Aftermarket fans

Arduino is very cheap microcontroller that can control fans using $0.25 temp sensor and $0.12 transistors to drive fan relays.

https://forum.arduino.cc/t/arduino-n...estions/620615

I've since improved the layout and use of parts a bit. I now use a darlington pair of 2N2222 NPN transistors to drive a pair of fan relays.
I always use 2x 40-Amp Fan relays to drive 1x 30-40amp Fan. Never use a single 40amp relay to drive a ~40amp fan, it will eventually melt in my experience.
40amp relays are not designed to run 40amps continuously apparently.

The microcontroller can be fitted with an LCD screen to view temp monitor, and manually activate fans for testing, etc...
It can run pretty much any device on the vehicle. It can activate fuel pump relay (or deactivate for security/theft). It can run little LED lights on your dash for warning. I can activate servos or small motors to run water spray or unlock things from the inside... its a handy thing to learn to use.

Heres a pic of the LCD screen fitted to monitor temps.


I used excel to curve fit the resistance of the temp sensor I got from ebay to a non-linear expression you just plug back into the microcontroller to monitor temps.


I used a hotplate to determine the various resistance of the sensor through a voltage divider, the purpose of this is to verify the accuracy of the sensor using different voltage inputs and different resistor voltage drops through the divider, making the most robust setup possible.



As to fans, the best pair of fans I have ever found for engine swaps (used these for 800rwhp LS and 2jz swaps more than I can count)


I don't know how difficult to fit these fans into a thirdgen but, they cool pretty much any daily driver swap I've encountered, 1000hp is no issue.
Old 04-19-2022, 03:33 PM
  #115  
Member
Thread Starter
 
BBCSwap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 317
Received 42 Likes on 34 Posts
Engine: SBC 400 Carb
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 28 spline 323 gears
Re: Aftermarket fans

Kingtal0n I appreciate the info but that is way beyond my capabilities.

1989karr I believe you. But why would they put a 195 thermostat in an engine if they want it to run at 235? Or visa versa? I know water won't boil at 195 but it will evaporate quickly. Sludge/moisture never built up in engines that never went over 195 in the past, unless they never got to operating temp. My 1999, 2011 & 2018 Silverado never goes over 200.
Old 04-19-2022, 03:55 PM
  #116  
Supreme Member

 
Kingtal0n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Miami
Posts: 3,272
Received 70 Likes on 61 Posts
Car: 240sx
Engine: whatever works
Transmission: 4l80e this year
Axle/Gears: 3.512
Re: Aftermarket fans

195*F is a sort of minimum for reduced engine wear. Not the max temp, just a minimum.

Modern cars run higher than 200*F for efficiency, economy. The hotter the power plant, the more economical it is.

You are likely seeing a gauge say 200*F but its probably coming out of the engine near 225*F or more. Factory sensor likely doesn't report outlet temps, or maybe it is skewed slightly, they aren't always supplied with voltage and instead tend to operate with resistance for idiot-based gauges.

The water boiling has nothing to do with losing coolant. A sealed system won't lose water molecules or evaporate water no matter how hot it gets, because its sealed.
Old 04-19-2022, 04:03 PM
  #117  
Member
Thread Starter
 
BBCSwap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 317
Received 42 Likes on 34 Posts
Engine: SBC 400 Carb
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 28 spline 323 gears
Re: Aftermarket fans

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n
The water boiling has nothing to do with losing coolant. A sealed system won't lose water molecules or evaporate water no matter how hot it gets, because its sealed.
I think that was in reference to condensation on the inside of the engine not the coolant.
Old 04-19-2022, 04:25 PM
  #118  
Supreme Member

 
Kingtal0n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Miami
Posts: 3,272
Received 70 Likes on 61 Posts
Car: 240sx
Engine: whatever works
Transmission: 4l80e this year
Axle/Gears: 3.512
Re: Aftermarket fans

Originally Posted by BBCSwap
I think that was in reference to condensation on the inside of the engine not the coolant.
Ohhh we wana talk about crankcase evacuation

My favorite topic. Please review the following work I've done in this regard, and it shall serve all any combustion engines applications.

Every engine has blow by so every engine has PCV flow. If pressure rises above atmospheric there is a slew of issues ranging from oil contamination to partial pressure of dissolved gasses to the density of gas flowing through the pcv system carries more oil. Crankcase pressure must be set by the engine owner per specific application to maintain 0.5" to 1" Hg at all times.


Dangerous crankcase gas




Partial pressure of dissolved gas, dynamic equilibrium from chemistry textbook applies to all liquid-air interfaces



Blowby gas influence on ring function




PCV valve blows oil out to the intake manifold in natural aspiration when crankcase pressure rises



A vacuum pump article statement regarding influence of gas density



Proper crankcase suction due to filter restriction is a measurable quantity


Published paper PCV crankcase pressure target 0.5" to 1" Hg for OEM engines



Threads where I cover these items in sometimes excruciating detail
https://www.supraforums.com/threads/.../post-13980010
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/powe...ml#post6462919
https://www.theturboforums.com/threa.../#post-2050290
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1604427919
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1604386206

crankcase pressure situations with dry sump
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1601048750
http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthre...=1#post3147205


Crankcase pressure, oil leaking


Electric vacuum pump , importance of crankcase pressure practical application for oil control
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...l#post11930508
I decided the short the Hobbs switch to check out the vacuum with the air pump turned on. To my surprise it wasn't turning on. Upon inspecting the 15amp fuse it had blown so it was not working when under boost. This might explain why I had oil pushing past the rear main seal. I swapped in a 20amp fuse and it works like it should and pulls ~5" at idle. Because I monitor the pressure with my AeroForce Gauge it allows me to set a warning light. I now have the warning light come on anytime the PCV presssure exceeds 0psi.

notice it applies to all engine crankcase systems. Symptoms take time to develop. A major warning sign in Natural aspiration apps is pcv valve orifice flowing oil, which can only happen if the engine crankcase pressure at WOT is going higher than intake manifold pressure. Leading to people blaming the pcv system and baffle system when it was the air filter preventing WOT pressure drop on the crankcase which causes PCV valve to flow oil.

As to water, combustion creates water, so the engine oil inside crankcase is constantly exposed to water. By maintaining a crankcase evacuation system with pressure drop signal (partial pressure of water leaving as a gas state influenced by crankcase pressure, see dynamic equilibrium above from textbook), and making sure that oil can reach near the boiling point of water, it will ensure most of the water is evacuated by the PCV system. Water should not be allowed to collect in any portion of a pcv system, such as catch can stagnant reservoir, because water participate innumerable chemical reactions in the presence of heat cycling, carbon conglomerates, and atmospheric contents cycling through a pcv system.
The following users liked this post:
vorteciroc (04-19-2022)
Old 04-19-2022, 06:52 PM
  #119  
Supreme Member

 
vorteciroc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 212 is up in this Bit@#
Posts: 2,763
Received 739 Likes on 565 Posts
Car: Resto-Mod 1987 IROC-Z Clone
Engine: Alky fed L92 Vortec Twin-Turbo 6.8L
Transmission: My own built/ design 4L80M
Axle/Gears: Custom 12 bolt (4.10:1)
Re: Aftermarket fans

From a strictly Performance aspect, I want to see:
-Engine Coolant Temps in the 160*F to 180*F Range
(Measured in the Intake-Manifold, below the Thermostat/ just before coolant goes into the Upper Radiator Hose).
-Engine Oil Temps in the 215*F to 225*F Range
(Measured just above the Oil Filter Pad).

Intake Air Temps and Exhaust Gas Temps must be in-check for the above Temps to be ideal.

Old 04-19-2022, 07:14 PM
  #120  
Supreme Member

 
vorteciroc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 212 is up in this Bit@#
Posts: 2,763
Received 739 Likes on 565 Posts
Car: Resto-Mod 1987 IROC-Z Clone
Engine: Alky fed L92 Vortec Twin-Turbo 6.8L
Transmission: My own built/ design 4L80M
Axle/Gears: Custom 12 bolt (4.10:1)
Re: Aftermarket fans

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n
Arduino is very cheap microcontroller that can control fans using $0.25 temp sensor and $0.12 transistors to drive fan relays.

https://forum.arduino.cc/t/arduino-n...estions/620615

I've since improved the layout and use of parts a bit. I now use a darlington pair of 2N2222 NPN transistors to drive a pair of fan relays.
I always use 2x 40-Amp Fan relays to drive 1x 30-40amp Fan. Never use a single 40amp relay to drive a ~40amp fan, it will eventually melt in my experience.
40amp relays are not designed to run 40amps continuously apparently.

The microcontroller can be fitted with an LCD screen to view temp monitor, and manually activate fans for testing, etc...
It can run pretty much any device on the vehicle. It can activate fuel pump relay (or deactivate for security/theft). It can run little LED lights on your dash for warning. I can activate servos or small motors to run water spray or unlock things from the inside... its a handy thing to learn to use.

Heres a pic of the LCD screen fitted to monitor temps.


I used excel to curve fit the resistance of the temp sensor I got from ebay to a non-linear expression you just plug back into the microcontroller to monitor temps.


I used a hotplate to determine the various resistance of the sensor through a voltage divider, the purpose of this is to verify the accuracy of the sensor using different voltage inputs and different resistor voltage drops through the divider, making the most robust setup possible.



As to fans, the best pair of fans I have ever found for engine swaps (used these for 800rwhp LS and 2jz swaps more than I can count)


I don't know how difficult to fit these fans into a thirdgen but, they cool pretty much any daily driver swap I've encountered, 1000hp is no issue.
Your Lab actually looks a hell of a lot cleaner than any Labs that I have had to share with co-workers!


Thanks for the Info on your experience with the above Nissan Cooling Fan Assembly.
I believe that the Part you are referencing is Nissan Part Number CF2011070.

I have a good friend that has restored a Domestic 1996 Fairlady (300ZX) that had a VG30DE Engine...
I am machining a RB26DE Engine that he had a pair of Turbochargers for.
He also has a SR20DE engine that he would like me to Machine and Assemble... He seems to believe that this smaller 4-Cylinder is a superior Engine Platform.
I believe he would LOVE to have a Nissan Cooling Fan Assembly that performs that well for His car.

Thanks for Posting about it!
Would you have any Specifications on the Dual Fan Assembly?
Please PM me when you have a chance to let me know.
Then I will delete this Post from this Thread for the OP.


Last edited by vorteciroc; 04-19-2022 at 07:22 PM.
Old 04-19-2022, 07:37 PM
  #121  
Supreme Member

 
Kingtal0n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Miami
Posts: 3,272
Received 70 Likes on 61 Posts
Car: 240sx
Engine: whatever works
Transmission: 4l80e this year
Axle/Gears: 3.512
Re: Aftermarket fans

Originally Posted by vorteciroc
From a strictly Performance aspect, I want to see:
-Engine Coolant Temps in the 160*F to 180*F Range
(Measured in the Intake-Manifold, below the Thermostat/ just before coolant goes into the Upper Radiator Hose).
-Engine Oil Temps in the 215*F to 225*F Range
(Measured just above the Oil Filter Pad).
You are very knowledgeable. I appreciate you and I'm happy to have your correspondence.

My opinion is similar, and as we all have our own "comfort zones" here is mine
For modern 'antique' turbo engines (02+) I shoot for 185-190*F baseline coolant temp (fans on 188 to 193*F~, play keep away from 200+ but it will approach 210*F for half mile long WOT pulls at 2x to 3x factory output, say up to 900rwhp), if the engine is newish (2013+) I would shoot for about 10*F higher than that, keep it near 212*F most of the time.
212*F seems like a magic number for coolant temp, ever since the 70's and Smokey Yunick books said it was. I still like to believe it.
The newer the engine, the more efficiency and reduced wear benefits it seems to get from higher coolant temps to match near oil temps.

In general, I don't think its a good idea to keep Oil and Coolant at a wide difference in temp, no matter what kind of engine. Maybe a 30*F difference at most I would accept. I realize alot of track cars may see 245*F oil and 215*F coolant and I think this is just barely adequate, they should really do something about that oil temp, bring it down. But many don't care.

Larger differences, For example 165*F coolant and 220*F oil is asking for trouble, approaching trouble. I've read about issues with this in boat engines that have endless supply of cold lake water and a 165 thermostat which used to be quite common, cylinder wall galling I think, once they get nice and warmed up oil supply, can ruin the cylinder wall.

Materials science wise,
I would imagine that with two sides of a crystalline lattice that will be under a 3D stress tensor differential based on the gradient of temperature of their respective component axis, the resulting internal stress (One side being more 'expanded' than the other) may result with broken covalent bonds internally to the lattice due to excess internal stress in non-anticipated axis direction caused by gradient T. When engineers design parts for a machine as combustion engines or concrete for bridges etc... they examine the 3D stress tensor and anticipate stress in specific directions, then manufacture parts to be especially resistive to stress in those directions. For example connecting rods undoubtedly resist stress in a 'vertical' sense, a greater PSI load may be applied, than in any horizontal direction, even if the rod is as thick in the horizontal direction as an equivalent length piece of the vertical we cut out of one to test with. Some materials such as concrete are only strong under specific types of stress, for example concrete prefer to be in compression. If concrete goes into tension it's atomic covalent bonds can break easily with little stress applied.
Thus in the coolant system I really 'stress' two things,
1. that the oil temp be adequate to provide viscosity, flow and protection for the given application
2. that the coolant temp be less than oil temp but only by 10 or ~25*F at most, for the sake of longevity/reliability (Not especially performance related)





Old 04-19-2022, 09:01 PM
  #122  
Supreme Member

 
vorteciroc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 212 is up in this Bit@#
Posts: 2,763
Received 739 Likes on 565 Posts
Car: Resto-Mod 1987 IROC-Z Clone
Engine: Alky fed L92 Vortec Twin-Turbo 6.8L
Transmission: My own built/ design 4L80M
Axle/Gears: Custom 12 bolt (4.10:1)
Re: Aftermarket fans

Your Post is a paragon of experienced information, and relatively the best I could have asked for!

Curiosity has struck me!

I will definitely chew on you data, and possibly perform some testing of my own...
It is easy enough to repeat some Engine runs within your parameters.
Thank you, I am elated!
Old 04-19-2022, 09:49 PM
  #123  
Supreme Member

 
Kingtal0n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Miami
Posts: 3,272
Received 70 Likes on 61 Posts
Car: 240sx
Engine: whatever works
Transmission: 4l80e this year
Axle/Gears: 3.512
Re: Aftermarket fans

Originally Posted by vorteciroc
Your Post is a paragon of experienced information, and relatively the best I could have asked for!

Curiosity has struck me!

I will definitely chew on you data, and possibly perform some testing of my own...
It is easy enough to repeat some Engine runs within your parameters.
Thank you, I am elated!
It would prob be easier to dig up the information on the boat forums, thats where most of what I remember reading is from temp cause and effects,
heres one about the aluminum vs iron block expansion stuff
https://www.performanceboats.com/thr...1/post-1516925

looks like its a thermal expansion thing you would consider building into the engine for running cold coolant temps
https://www.performanceboats.com/thr...7/post-2516681
Yup, cool water and hot oil is how we do it. When we build our motors now, we put a bit more piston to wall clearance for the cool water. Other than that, make sure we've got heat in the pan and let it rip.
I don't doubt that it will make more power with colder water. My issue is related to longevity and reliability, not power. Heat energy in parts and interactions between parts sharing heat 'friction' and 'pressure' words that involve energy exchanges, engineers set them up using a model and every model has a specific desirable range for environmental and internal variables such as temperature and flow rate of fluids. Looking at the modern design strategy as years and tech increasing we see higher and higher temperature of coolant temps, which probably means their piston-wall clearance for example is set to work with that range of expected temperature. Whether we can prove it mathematically using a PDE isn't going to change that and even if it's not true for all engines there is still a the model to consider and what it means to test or trial and error something outside of it like adding 30psi of boost to an engine that originally was designed to run with 0psi.

Old 04-19-2022, 10:05 PM
  #124  
Supreme Member

 
1989karr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 2,292
Received 157 Likes on 146 Posts
Car: 89' Firebird
Engine: 3.4L V-6
Transmission: 700-R4
Axle/Gears: Whatever came stock!
Re: Aftermarket fans

Originally Posted by BBCSwap
Kingtal0n I appreciate the info but that is way beyond my capabilities.

1989karr I believe you. But why would they put a 195 thermostat in an engine if they want it to run at 235? Or visa versa? I know water won't boil at 195 but it will evaporate quickly. Sludge/moisture never built up in engines that never went over 195 in the past, unless they never got to operating temp. My 1999, 2011 & 2018 Silverado never goes over 200.
well if I recall, 195 was the temp GM chose as it was the best combo for cooling, and also for evaporating the condensation in the motor, AND also for the high emissions standards…they did what they could back then which was to “burn off” anything they could I guess by raising temps. The tech thred here stated GM designed these cars to run hot on purpose but didnt give a real reason though

As far as the fan temp….i dunno why they chose 235 plus for the fan switch… lol.


my guess is the ecm fan was programmed to turn on first and cool the engine….and if it needed help if it got “that hot” the secondary fan would come on


side speculation…the grand national fan switch comes on at 210??? But the price of even an aftermarket cheap switch is $45 vs $10 for a stock switch


im wondering if the “tech”?for the lower fan seitches costs more??

Old 04-20-2022, 01:26 PM
  #125  
Supreme Member

 
1989karr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 2,292
Received 157 Likes on 146 Posts
Car: 89' Firebird
Engine: 3.4L V-6
Transmission: 700-R4
Axle/Gears: Whatever came stock!
Re: Aftermarket fans

BBC swap,


Have you considered tying the two fans together? Basically eliminate the seconds fan control via switch. That way it comes on whenever the Main fan comes on.
Or, if the second switch activated fan comes on with the ac only, then you can tie the first fan to the second, so it comes on with the ac and then get a cooler running switch as well and eliminate the ecm control.





Old 04-20-2022, 02:05 PM
  #126  
Supreme Member

 
Kingtal0n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Miami
Posts: 3,272
Received 70 Likes on 61 Posts
Car: 240sx
Engine: whatever works
Transmission: 4l80e this year
Axle/Gears: 3.512
Re: Aftermarket fans

Originally Posted by 1989karr
BBC swap,


Have you considered tying the two fans together? Basically eliminate the seconds fan control via switch. That way it comes on whenever the Main fan comes on.
Or, if the second switch activated fan comes on with the ac only, then you can tie the first fan to the second, so it comes on with the ac and then get a cooler running switch as well and eliminate the ecm control.
Thats how mine are done. Power going to the first fan turns on another relay which has its own supply of power for the second fan turning on.
The ECU has a "fan 2" option but I use that for high speed. Because if I don't use that for high speed how do I get both low and high on 2 different fans?
Old 04-20-2022, 02:21 PM
  #127  
Supreme Member

 
1989karr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 2,292
Received 157 Likes on 146 Posts
Car: 89' Firebird
Engine: 3.4L V-6
Transmission: 700-R4
Axle/Gears: Whatever came stock!
Re: Aftermarket fans

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n
Thats how mine are done. Power going to the first fan turns on another relay which has its own supply of power for the second fan turning on.
The ECU has a "fan 2" option but I use that for high speed. Because if I don't use that for high speed how do I get both low and high on 2 different fans?

Looks like you got a LS motor? That's totally different operation from the TPI fan operations lol TPI motors I think are all one controlled as one speed as far as I know, so either on or off. One relay per fan.
TPI relays have constant power, but when the fan needs activation the ECM or the fan switch physically grounds the circuit


The LS fans attached to the LS - ECM from what I understand uses 3 fan relays. I THINK 1 relay powers two fans at low speed, but when needing high speed, relay 2 and relay 3 each control one fan individually. sending each fan more current thus creating the higher speed.

Theres a company called LS1 fans. They make harnesses for trucks mostly, but they might have something for your car?


.
Old 04-21-2022, 04:40 PM
  #128  
Supreme Member

 
Kingtal0n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Miami
Posts: 3,272
Received 70 Likes on 61 Posts
Car: 240sx
Engine: whatever works
Transmission: 4l80e this year
Axle/Gears: 3.512
Re: Aftermarket fans

Originally Posted by 1989karr
Looks like you got a LS motor? That's totally different operation from the TPI fan operations lol TPI motors I think are all one controlled as one speed as far as I know, so either on or off. One relay per fan.
TPI relays have constant power, but when the fan needs activation the ECM or the fan switch physically grounds the circuit


The LS fans attached to the LS - ECM from what I understand uses 3 fan relays. I THINK 1 relay powers two fans at low speed, but when needing high speed, relay 2 and relay 3 each control one fan individually. sending each fan more current thus creating the higher speed.

Theres a company called LS1 fans. They make harnesses for trucks mostly, but they might have something for your car?


.
It doesn't matter what type of engine. I make my own fan controllers. Look at my first post- I Use a microprocessor to control aux fans as needed. Arduino -> darlington pair -> any number of fan relays. I'm just super lazy and the OEM ecu can flip on a fan1 and fan2 so I used it in conjunction with my fan controller to control as many fans as I want. The oem ECU doesn't control transmission fans so that was something I needed desperately and the arduino can control any number of fans ... so yeah.
Keep in mind I'm using Altima fans. The "high" and "low" function is built into them, as 12v supply inputs. Nothing LS related with these fans I use- but it doesn't matter...

My point was that you can take 1 signal from anywhere and split it into as many activations as you want, 2 fans, 5 fans, 10 fans. etc.... Like you suggested, its a very good idea you have. I support your type of thinking. It was really good advice to cut down on the number of needed signals from different sources, as 1 signal can be split up.

and also second point, 2. Use multiple relays to turn on electric fans. I never use a single 40-amp relay to activate a single 20-40amp fan. It will inevitably melt or stop working.
I always use 2x 40-amp relays to run a single electric fan. Alternatively I would trust a single 60-amp relay from an OEM manufacturer... but those are harder to find... There is a member here "vorteciroc" that knows where to get them. I need to ask him....

carry on good advice, thanks
Old 04-21-2022, 06:39 PM
  #129  
Supreme Member

 
1989karr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 2,292
Received 157 Likes on 146 Posts
Car: 89' Firebird
Engine: 3.4L V-6
Transmission: 700-R4
Axle/Gears: Whatever came stock!
Re: Aftermarket fans

Originally Posted by Kingtal0n
It doesn't matter what type of engine. I make my own fan controllers. Look at my first post- I Use a microprocessor to control aux fans as needed. Arduino -> darlington pair -> any number of fan relays. I'm just super lazy and the OEM ecu can flip on a fan1 and fan2 so I used it in conjunction with my fan controller to control as many fans as I want. The oem ECU doesn't control transmission fans so that was something I needed desperately and the arduino can control any number of fans ... so yeah.
Keep in mind I'm using Altima fans. The "high" and "low" function is built into them, as 12v supply inputs. Nothing LS related with these fans I use- but it doesn't matter...

My point was that you can take 1 signal from anywhere and split it into as many activations as you want, 2 fans, 5 fans, 10 fans. etc.... Like you suggested, its a very good idea you have. I support your type of thinking. It was really good advice to cut down on the number of needed signals from different sources, as 1 signal can be split up.

and also second point, 2. Use multiple relays to turn on electric fans. I never use a single 40-amp relay to activate a single 20-40amp fan. It will inevitably melt or stop working.
I always use 2x 40-amp relays to run a single electric fan. Alternatively I would trust a single 60-amp relay from an OEM manufacturer... but those are harder to find... There is a member here "vorteciroc" that knows where to get them. I need to ask him....

carry on good advice, thanks

Oh, i thougt you were asking how to make them work with 2 speeds lol
Old 04-21-2022, 07:28 PM
  #130  
Supreme Member

 
Kingtal0n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Miami
Posts: 3,272
Received 70 Likes on 61 Posts
Car: 240sx
Engine: whatever works
Transmission: 4l80e this year
Axle/Gears: 3.512
Re: Aftermarket fans

Ah that was a rhetorical question, sorry. Each fan has a low and high input 12v circuit, so a total of 4x inputs needed if you wanted control over each Altima fan low and high.
The LS ecu only has a fan1 and fan2, total of 2 outputs,

so how do you make 2 outputs work with 4 inputs?
It would be silly to implement an aux controller just for that. So I simply used fan1 for low both and fan2 for high on both.
The LS ecu thinks its turning on fan1 but using your piggyback signal technical I turn both on low.

Just saying its a great idea you suggested. No need to have a bunch of output signals from devices, you can use 1 output to drive x inputs. People worried about how fan2 and fan3 fan4 etc... is going to turn on sequentially when they can just piggy back a signal that already flips on at the right temp
The following users liked this post:
1989karr (04-21-2022)
Old 04-22-2022, 07:41 AM
  #131  
Member
Thread Starter
 
BBCSwap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 317
Received 42 Likes on 34 Posts
Engine: SBC 400 Carb
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 28 spline 323 gears
Re: Aftermarket fans

I have a new coolant switch on the way, on at 210. Will see how this one works. For now I have the switch I got from the GM dealer in. I let it run, when it got to about 240 the primary fan came on & I unplugged that fan relay. The fan shut off. About 5 degrees hotter and the secondary fan came on. You could see the gauge starting to come down. Then I plugged in the relay for the primary fan the temp came down fast. I thought about having both fans come on together but since one fan brings down the temp I will leave that alone. By the time I got the car out of the barn the temp started going up 230ish. I have a 300 ft. long driveway. I never even got to 20 mph and the temp was coming down by the time I got to the road. My driveway is 1/8 mile to the stop sign. Well before I got to the stop sign the temp was down to 195 and I never got over 20 mph. And this was with both fans off. It all seems to be working the way it's supposed to. The a/c blows cold but it's only 50 here. Sat it's supposed to get to 75 so I will test it out more. When I turn on the a/c the primary fan comes on not the secondary. But at least a fan comes on. When I shut the a/c off in a minute or two the fan shuts off. When I get the new temp switch I will update. Thank you guys very much for your help.
Old 04-22-2022, 12:16 PM
  #132  
Supreme Member

 
1989karr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 2,292
Received 157 Likes on 146 Posts
Car: 89' Firebird
Engine: 3.4L V-6
Transmission: 700-R4
Axle/Gears: Whatever came stock!
Re: Aftermarket fans

Originally Posted by BBCSwap
I have a new coolant switch on the way, on at 210. Will see how this one works. For now I have the switch I got from the GM dealer in. I let it run, when it got to about 240 the primary fan came on & I unplugged that fan relay. The fan shut off. About 5 degrees hotter and the secondary fan came on. You could see the gauge starting to come down. Then I plugged in the relay for the primary fan the temp came down fast. I thought about having both fans come on together but since one fan brings down the temp I will leave that alone. By the time I got the car out of the barn the temp started going up 230ish. I have a 300 ft. long driveway. I never even got to 20 mph and the temp was coming down by the time I got to the road. My driveway is 1/8 mile to the stop sign. Well before I got to the stop sign the temp was down to 195 and I never got over 20 mph. And this was with both fans off. It all seems to be working the way it's supposed to. The a/c blows cold but it's only 50 here. Sat it's supposed to get to 75 so I will test it out more. When I turn on the a/c the primary fan comes on not the secondary. But at least a fan comes on. When I shut the a/c off in a minute or two the fan shuts off. When I get the new temp switch I will update. Thank you guys very much for your help.

It SOUNDs like its basically working as designed and the LS fans are really keeping it cool.



The primary on SEEMS normal as well... youd need to change that in the PROM if you want to change it.. My fans go to a 210 - 220 fan switch before the ECM so they come on sooner...
As long as it cools and as long as the ac is cold all is good! Throw a gauge in the ac and see what the temp is. I currently get to 40-38 in the middle vents
Old 04-28-2022, 07:55 AM
  #133  
Member
Thread Starter
 
BBCSwap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 317
Received 42 Likes on 34 Posts
Engine: SBC 400 Carb
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 28 spline 323 gears
Re: Aftermarket fans

I haven't received the coolant switch yet. I'm hoping today/tomorrow. I will let you know how it works.
I'm satisfied with the way the fans are working. I held a thermometer up to the air vent with a/c on. It got to 44 degrees. Maybe would have went colder if I held it there longer. I'm happy.

When I got the car it had lowering springs in it. I put new replacement springs on the front with new struts, brake hoses & caliper kits. Used OE springs on the back. Tires balanced. Alignment this afternoon.

I have the trans fluid/filter & rear end oil. Will change soon & see what I have for a rear end/posi.
Old 04-28-2022, 12:25 PM
  #134  
Supreme Member

 
1989karr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 2,292
Received 157 Likes on 146 Posts
Car: 89' Firebird
Engine: 3.4L V-6
Transmission: 700-R4
Axle/Gears: Whatever came stock!
Re: Aftermarket fans

Originally Posted by BBCSwap
I haven't received the coolant switch yet. I'm hoping today/tomorrow. I will let you know how it works.
I'm satisfied with the way the fans are working. I held a thermometer up to the air vent with a/c on. It got to 44 degrees. Maybe would have went colder if I held it there longer. I'm happy.

When I got the car it had lowering springs in it. I put new replacement springs on the front with new struts, brake hoses & caliper kits. Used OE springs on the back. Tires balanced. Alignment this afternoon.

I have the trans fluid/filter & rear end oil. Will change soon & see what I have for a rear end/posi.

44 isn;t bad.

The LS fans IMO really help make the AC cold,


The rest could be adding extra or removing some refrigerant and gettign the balance just right...i go by feel ,not gauges lol



Any pics of the car?

Old 04-29-2022, 04:34 PM
  #135  
Member
Thread Starter
 
BBCSwap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 317
Received 42 Likes on 34 Posts
Engine: SBC 400 Carb
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 28 spline 323 gears
Re: Aftermarket fans

The front end sits almost 2" higher with the new springs. The back about 1.5". I don't like low riders.

I changed the gear oil in the rear end. I have an open differential. Explains the one wheel peel. The carrier has some gouges from the pinion gear. It looks like the pinion came lose and came in contact with the carrier. It appears to be fixed. Just the scares left behind.

I will be changing to posi at some point. Maybe this winter.
I changed the transmission fluid twice. It needed a rinsing. The PO must have used a half a tube of RTV on the gasket.
Old 04-29-2022, 05:16 PM
  #136  
Member
Thread Starter
 
BBCSwap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 317
Received 42 Likes on 34 Posts
Engine: SBC 400 Carb
Transmission: 700R4
Axle/Gears: 28 spline 323 gears
Re: Aftermarket fans

I got it aligned Thru. What a difference. It looks like the top of struts are moved inward about as far as it will go. Both sides the same. It's in spec and handles well.

Old 04-29-2022, 06:22 PM
  #137  
Supreme Member

 
1989karr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 2,292
Received 157 Likes on 146 Posts
Car: 89' Firebird
Engine: 3.4L V-6
Transmission: 700-R4
Axle/Gears: Whatever came stock!
Re: Aftermarket fans

Wow, it looks great!! Worth the effort!!!!
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
94ElBanditoDeCa
Cooling
2
04-12-2017 01:32 PM
jpearsall187
Cooling
8
12-28-2009 10:30 AM
Rayzor32
Cooling
3
07-05-2008 02:57 PM
Fbird88
Electronics
6
04-23-2002 07:41 PM
evilho7810
Electronics
1
01-17-2001 09:58 PM



Quick Reply: Aftermarket fans



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:07 AM.