conlinj

iTrader: (3)

Never saw one of these before, couldn't have been factory...

Formula 350 Convertible

nick418

nope, its all I didnt bother to look at the pix... No Convertible (3rd gen firebird and Camaro) came with a 350. NADDA! Nothing

conlinj

iTrader: (3)

it may not be bs, he could have bought a formula 350 then sent it to ascd or another company to have it converted. May not be a factory origianl convertible

nick418

True i just looked up his VIN and it told me he has a 350 8th digit = "8". Now he coulda swap it to a 350 and gave the wrong VIN. Or he coulda converted it to a convertible..

conlinj

iTrader: (3)

VIN...

Here are the results for your query on: 1G2FS2189KL2xxxxx
Made in: United States
Manufacturer: General Motors
Make: Pontiac
Carline Code: F-Body
Carline Series: Firebird
Body Type: 2 door coupe (hatchback)
Restraint System: Manual belts
Engine Code: 350 ci V8 B2L/L98 (1987-1992)
9 is the CHECK DIGIT
Model Year: 1989
Assembly Plant: Van Nuys
Production Sequence: 256230

nick418

yep and it says hatchback

no Convertible ever came with a 350

conlinj

iTrader: (3)

i'm leaning towards sending it to ascd it's pretty clean, and if he just changed the motor code carfax wouldn't be able to find the vin...

89_IROC_98U

I just contacted the seller and suggested that s/he add that the car is not a factory-optioned 350 convertible car. We'll see what the response is, if any.

- 89_IROC

nick418

lol good work 89

89_IROC_98U

Heh. I've had to beat up on a couple of people for misrepresenting the 3rds. Call me the 3rd gen ****

Usually I get no response from people like that, so I took it upon myself to contact the high bidder as well and give them the lowdown (including the VIN results). I'm hardcore, man

- 89_IROC

cdartz

Relax guys, I'm sure it's just a car that a dealer had converted by ASC. The current owner probably has no idea it's not a factory convertible, especially considering it would have left the dealership when new as a convertible. This could be the second owner, who bought it from the first, who told him he bought it new and it came that way.

nick418

very caring and loving!

89_IROC_98U

Yeah, I'm also guessing that the owner has no clue simply because the listing doesn't specifically state that the car is a factory convertible. I was simply giving the parties involved a friendly heads-up

- 89_IROC

88 WS6 TransAm GTA

iTrader: (1)

First off, you have NO proof that car isnt a factory convertible. All convertible cars left GM as STANDARD T TOP CARS and will be vin numberd as such. The vin number will NOT tell you if the car is a convertible. They were then sent to ASC for conversion before hitting the dealers. The VIN matches up, its all there. Its a factory 350 car which is more than obvious, and you have NO PROOF that that car was not optioned as a convertible from factory. I HAVE SEEN FACTORY L98 GTA CONVERTIBLES, which were legit cars. Why dont you learn something before you go mouthing off and trash talking a car you know nothing about.

conlinj

iTrader: (3)

What you really need are the rpo's Still a cool car tho, and damn clean

Guest

There are ASC converted 350 convertibles that were drop shipped from GM. I own one.

cdartz

You are dead wrong on this actually. The sixth digit in the VIN will be a 3 if the car is a factory convertible. If it's a 2, which this car is, then it's a dealer convertible. Here is beginning of my vert's VIN for proof: 1G1FP33F

nick418

everyone lets stop fightin, Maybe i was wrong.. But i was told no 350 Came with convertibles. But u know, i learn somthin everday

razor

You would be correct about Camaro's but not on the earlier Firebirds. Time to do some reading.

cdartz

Well I stand corrected then. :shrug:

89_IROC_98U

Chris is correct about cars sold in the U.S. - if the sixth digit is not a 3, you do not own a factory convertible. Period. It was converted by a 3rd party FOR the factory, not BY the factory. 3rd gen Firebird, like Camaro, didn't even have a convertible option until the mid-to-late 80s and it's already been shown time and time again that the VIN doesn't lie about factory convertible cars. I don't know if this is different for any other countries.

To recap, convertible 3rd gens HAVE A 3 AS THE SIXTH DIGIT OF THE VIN. I don't care if someone's convertible "came from the factory" without a 3 - those cars, if they exist, are anomalies that don't count. I neither need nor want to see a VIN that runs contrary to this because it doesn't count - they were not mass-produced this way, they were one-off cars, they were accidents, they don't count.

88 WS6 TransAm GTA, you have never seen a factory L98 GTA convertible because they don't exist. Show me proof that one exists (specifically, a picture of the car, the VIN, and the SPID label with matching VIN) and I'll show you proof of those 50 "limited edition" 86 IROC-Z28 Camaros with L98 and a 5-speed

Also, 88 WS6 TransAm GTA, the VIN will tell you whether or not the car was a factory convertible.

Ok, put the crack pipe down and back away slowly. Go educate yourself and come back when you have a clue, mmkay? Factory convertibles were converted at which of the following places:

a) some secluded barn in northern Iowa
b) the factory
c) sweatshops in Bangladesh

HINT: a and c are incorrect answers

Factory convertibles were converted at the factory. I know that this is difficult to digest but work with me. That's why they're called factory convertibles as opposed to dealer convertibles (which, incidentally, were the ones sent to places like ASC for conversion.)

What? Firstly, it's numbered. Finally, Scott Settlemire, if your theory is correct then how do you explain the sixth VIN digit? I realize that this is an amazing coincidence, but it just so happens that coupes have a '2' while EVERY FACTORY CONVERTIBLE has a '3'! Isn't that bizarre?

"Why dont you learn something before you go mouthing off and trash talking a car you know nothing about? "

- 89_IROC

89_IROC_98U

You may own one, but 1) IT IS NOT A FACTORY CONVERTIBLE (you said so yourself), and 2) your 6th VIN digit is a '2' - not a '3', which means that your car is not a factory convertible.

- 89_IROC

92 Rag

OK, I'm a little confused...

As far as I can rememeber, and from the 3 convertibles I've owned, all had ASC stickers on the driver's door, meaning that they were all built ( or converted) at ASC.

I was always told that the reason for the long rear spoilers on the converts is because that's where ASC sawed of the roof from the hardtop. There is no way these cars were built on a regular production line at the factory, it would be too difficult to do on a line. Those rags used several wierd pieces to make it all work.

Also, there are files on this site somewhere which show the blueprints for the converts, in the lower corners of each blueprint, are the logos of ASC corp.

Also, I found this on another thread: Posted by Lon

ASC indeed did the convertible conversion initially they did it as an aftermarket conversion. From what I understand GM liked the conversion so well that they contracted for ASC to be their supplier of choice. This required some minor changes since their conversion was engineered to do hundreds vs. the thousands GM contracted for. Short answer; yes the conversion was done by an outside company called ASC. Yes it was authorized by GM and designated by a code in the vin, hence them being called a "factory convertible". "Factory Authorized" would be closer to the truth.

I guess there is no mystery why the dozen or so aftermarket companies that had been doing conversions since '82 dropped by the wayside once one was available as a factory option.

ASC had a facility near each of the two plants manufacturing F-bodies. The City of Industry location converted cars from the Van Nuys plant. I still kick myself for not dropping in and asking for a tour while it was still in existance.

ljnowell

are you quite sure about that?

conlinj

iTrader: (3)

The car's were vin'd as a convertible (with the 3) on the assembly line, then sent to ascd for the conversion. The conversions were not done on the assembly line. Also I believe all cars that were sent to ascd were t-top cars too

ljnowell

Thats what I am talking about, I think that the guy that posted the above flame is a retard. I have always heard that the cars left GM as T-top cars, and were converted at ACS. I think someone else had better lay off the crack pipe.

cdartz

Yeah they weren't done on the assembly line. They were all done at ASC, but a car is not considered a "factory convertible" unless the 6th VIN digit is a 3, at least as far as Camaros are concerned. Someone above says I'm wrong about this concerning Firebirds. I can't really say for those, but it is the case for Camaros. ASC converted plenty of other cars too though, so you might find a 350 powered vert out there somewhere, but it won't have the 3 in the VIN, and it won't be considered a "factory vert".

conlinj

iTrader: (3)

damn know it alls...

conlinj

iTrader: (3)

agreed

88 WS6 TransAm GTA

iTrader: (1)

89_IROC_98U, wow dude you really ARE an idiot. I can admit that I did not know about the "3" in the vin, Ill admit that. I even went out to my car to check it out.

But regardless, convertible started life AT GM AS TTOP CARS. They were then sent to ASC and converted from there. If you dont believe me, I dont give a flying ****, but its a proven fact you stupid bastard.

Crack pipe? I think you might want to ask your parents about that one...

cdartz

Everyone says that, but my factory vert does not have CC1 on the SPID label.

Guest

And?

The car was ordered by the dealer, sent from GM to ASC, and converted right alongside Camaros. You can argue that its not factory, but there's no difference. The same people did it.

The only person on crack is yourself. 'Factory' thirdgen convertibles were ALL converted outside of the GM plants in Norwood and Van Nuys, by ASC. If you think otherwise, you dont know anything about the cars then.

razor

I am not trying to state who is right or wrong on the issue, but here is what I have found out over the last few years. All Firebirds starting in 1991 were designated with the number 3 in the 6th location from left side on VIN. All Firebirds before 1991 were not allocated this way. There was also not an RPO code that signified a convertible conversion. I am referring to ASC conversions when I talk about the next part....these same 1986-1990 Firebirds were converted at either the ASC satellite plants at Livonia(Norwood) or City of Industry(Van Nuys) the exact same place as the Camaros with the number 3 to signify the convetible conversion. The same Firebirds were converted at the same time, in the same assembly lines as the Camaros, bumper to bumper. There are many guys with 350/vert combos on GTA's from 1987-1989. Some of these guys have orignal documentation and are the original owners. They ordered their Firebird 'verts the same way a Camaro 'vert was ordered. Pontiac warrantied all these cars when new...yes I mean the convertible part as well. I have talked to 2 GTA owners personally about this. One owner still has the warranty work order on his convertible top.

This whole thing is a grey area because Pontiac did not assign the VIN or an RPO to the conversion but did warranty the work which shows they accepted responsibility. Two years ago I tried to find a definate answer on this but never had any luck with Pontiac. I did talk to the man who was in charge of production at ASC at the time. He was kind enough to offer my production numbers of Firebird conversions done for Pontiac from 1986-1990. But again I could never get Pontiac to make a concrete statement on them being factory or not being factory. Pontiac would not say either statement was true

There are a few guys that own these cars that have a TON of info on them. I hope someone chimes in to give up a bit more info.

THEGENERAL

yeah id like to hear the actual truth to this myth myself

i always heard they were t-top cars that got converted at ASC also ......

ljnowell

I dont even think that is the question, that is a matter of manufacturing. They were T-top cars converted by ACS. The discrepency comes into play with the way the cars VIN and RPO codes were listed.

THEGENERAL

yeah i think they did a poor job of documenting these cars from the factory ....

ljnowell

Damn right they did. Some of GM's lines were very well documented, these cars, they just threw together whatever was sitting there and sold it it seems like.

89_IROC_98U

Agreed. How about we just stop arguing, then, since there appears to be no definitive answer?

Can't we all just get along? Damn. We all own (or aspire to own) f-body cars, so how about we all play on the same team?

- 89_IROC

ljnowell

Actually thats not what you were flamed for. YOu were flamed for being a jerk to a guy, who was right, when you couldnt have been more wrong.

I dont like to fight though, and I surely dont hold a grudge like some of the other babies on here.

92 Rag

So, why did they use t-top cars??

Was there extra bracing underneath on them?

Did they send the cars to ASC minus the glass roofs and all the weatherstripping?

89_IROC_98U

Frankly, I don't give a rat's *** about being flamed. Additionally, the guy wasn't right, although neither was I.

I didn't realize that this was such a gray area; otherwise I'd have kept my yap shut. Now that it's more apparent that there may be no definitive answer to the issue in question, it seems rather retarded to argue about it unless someone can offer intelligent input. Agreed?

- 89_IROC

89_IROC_98U

CC1 cars were used presumably because it was less work to convert than a non-CC1 car, although I can't substantiate this.

- 89_IROC

ljnowell

Actually, you were wrong.
At least have the courage to admit you were wrong, not complain like a kid.

scottmoyer

88 WS6 TransAm GTA and 89_IROC_98U, you are both very close to being put on probation!!!

No flaming or personal attacks on this board. If you have a problem with another member, take it offline in the PM's. Anybody else want the same, then continue the name calling and acting like children!

Too many people on here talk like they know all the answers when they are far from accurate. Do your homework and research answers before spouting off.

Any more attitudes and this thread will be deleted. End of story.

scottmoyer

Not all "factory" converted, 3 coded VIN, actually built at ASC, convertible came with TTops. The "factory" convertible conversion could have been a coupe also. They also had the rear window and deck. Many people have believed for years that they were sent as TTops cars with no tops and no rear window. Ask the guys from ASC why they had so many rear window take-offs and ttops to get rid of.

I'm not positive of this, but I don't believe Pontiac offered the convertible until very late in the 3rd gen running. Not sure if it was 90 or 91. Could've even been 89, I don't know. When Pontiac offered the convertible as an option, the VIN designated a 3 for it. Prior to that, the cars were probably dealer ordered. Every component of a car has an RPO or a VIN designation or both. If someone wants to prove my Firebird theory wrong, then show me the RPO code for an earlier convertible that does not have a 3 in the VIN. If evidence is shown, I'll acknowledge that I learned something about the Firebirds.

razor

I don't believe there is an RPO code for a convertible. If there was why would you ever have a CC1 RPO on a vert's SPID label? Most of your other questions were answered in what I have already quoted. Like I said before I am not stating which side is correct. The whole issue is more than a liitle bit murky. Scott do you have any connections that could possibly shed some light?

cdartz

Yes I agree. As I posted above my vert does not have CC1 on the SPID label. That's proof enough for me that my car was hard-top when it shipped to ASC. I know someone who knows Scott Settlemire fairly well. I could ask him if Scott would have any info for us, but I know Scott's a busy guy at GM, so I don't know if he'd have time for this. If you guys want I'll check into it.

Guest

There are 86 TA's that were converted by ASC floating around. There's even one for sale right now. Pontiac didnt officially give them the blessing until 91.

okfoz

I cant find the thread off hand... but there was a thread on this site, that was a brochure on how you could get a convertible Firebird before they were "Factory authorized".

THe name of the thread was "So you want a Firebird Convertible" I searched for anything similar and turned up nothing.

John

Guest

Its a sticky on the Convertible board. FYI for the haters, I posted it.

I do believe Willie had some input on the CC1 thing. I had actually talked to ASC in 89 about converting my car, and they asked if it had t-tops and went on to tell me it had to have them. Another take that as you wish, peoples stories change all the time and so does production.