scottmoyer

cdartz,
No sense in wasting Scott's time. he wasn't part of the team during the 3rd gen years and can offer no information. The best he'll do is get someone that "might" know the answer. I've requested information from him a few times.

Someone that might know more than we do is Keith Maney from Year One. He has been an expert on Speed Channel on the muscle car scene. If he doesn't know, then he might be able to find someone that does.

razor,
I don't have any connections at this point. As I mentioned, in the history of "factory" options, there has always been a VIN designation or RPO for all options. Usually, the convertibles are denoted by the VIN, not an RPO code. The assembly workers needed to know immediately if the car was a coupe or convertible so the VIN was the rule.

cdartz

Even besides the assembly line worker theory, a factory vert being designated by the VIN would almost seem like a requirement because motor vehicle divisions need to have a way to tell what the vehicle is. My verts title says CV. How else would they get that besides the VIN. I'd be curious to know on a VIN 2 dealer vert if the cars title lists CV. I'd bet it doesn't. Anyone with one of these cars want to check for us?

Guest

Hardtop. Sure it is...

The insurance companies dont recognize it either, although I have mine listed that way under the policy.

scramblin

Crap. I guess my car is a fraud. Its got all the stickers and the convertible owners manual from pontiac. Does that make it a factory authorized convertible? Oh yeah, and its got the 5.7 also.

Krazzycowgirl

I noticed that there are no pics of the sides to show the vert. Its all from odd angles & far away.

If it was my car I would have made sure I had a full side shot of the car.

88firebird

I don't know much about the verts, or ACS or that stuff... so my question is strictly out of curiousity... maybe a little ignorance on my part...

What years could you order verts from the dealership? I always thought the Camaros were available for a longer period of time than the Firebirds, and I've seen way more Camaro verts than Firebirds... can someone enlighten me? Thanks....

Krazzycowgirl

What the "Firebird by the numbers" book says is 91 but I dont think that is right.

Guest

The controversy will never end.

Pontiac said 91, that was the official year for the Firebird to return in convertible fashion. The thing is, before 91 you could still get a Firebird converted in the same manner that the Camaro was, order it just like you ordered any other car, and have it shipped to the dealer just like any other car. One of the dealers I used to visit had one on the showroom floor, and two on the lot back in 1989. I drove one of them, right off the floor. Story I got was entirely different than the story that you get from GM and Pontiac today, and the story today seems to make a little more sense. GM wasn't turning a blind eye and at the same time they weren't exactly promoting or pushing the Firebird convertibles, they were just letting it happen as people requested it. In 1986 my dad called his friend at GM and tried, desperately, to get a different engine in the car he was ordering. This guy isnt exactly a line worker either, in fact he still works for GM though he's officially retired. Anyway, no can do. Yet the Firebird convertibles, you could just go into the dealer and request one and they'd do it. GM knew about it, and had no problem with it. Why they waited until 1991 to call it official, who knows. Now they're saying they actually authorized this to happen in earlier years, and if you ask me it makes sense. This friend of my dads, we asked him about my car. Why? Well, he was pretty high up on the ladder working at the Van Nuys plant at the time and knew quite a bit about the operations going on there. He affirmed this wasnt any sort of sly move by dealers to convert these cars on their own for customers, and that the only people that could have a convertible through ASC was GM as they had a licensing agreement with ASC. Totally contradictory to what I was told by ASC when I called them in 1989, but then again I never tried to send my car there to have the roof cut off either. Still to this day I dont know anyone who has, but I'd sure like to see evidence that someone did. That would for sure clear it up one way or the other.

88firebird

I knew the Trans Ams weren't "officially" available til 91... about 3 years ago, I was looking at an 89 ragtop with a 2.8 V6, but the guy wanted a lot of cash for it, and I couldn't find much info on it to authenticate it like I wanted to... I was just curious, thats all...

cdartz

I guess it depends on how you look at it. Obviously a VIN "3" car is an official factory convertible and is so notated on the vehicle's title. A VIN "2" convertible I guess you could call an original car, one that has the factory's blessing, but one that is technically not "official" in the legal sense. I would call it an original convertible, but not a factory convertible.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I have seen 1 88 and 2 89 Formula 350s (in person) that were converted from the time they were ordered..The one guy (org owner) ordered his from the dealer as a TTOP car to be a convertible.. It was drop shipped to ASC for the conversion..then they were shipped to the dealer..
I don't know what the vin #s were sorry.. I do remember having 8s in them cause I had people telling me my car had a 305 in it cause I had TTOPs ..I have a 89 Formula350 with TTOPs

One was red and one was a light metalic blue...

I hope this helps

Joez88Camaro

This thread is funny.

I'd figure so many people here would know the facts on these cars and people here that have more posts that have been here longer then me aren't even getting the facts rights.

I figure one human being could have done it in one post.

Oh well

Guest

So I guess that makes you the expert, eh?

Even ASC and GM dont have the same story twice, what makes you so special?

sxchonto

Here are the RPO Codes: and the VIN (From the vehicle):

1G2FS2189KL2xxxxxx

AAA 4-WAY MANUAL SEAT ADJUSTER
AH3 ADJUSTER, 4-WAY MANUAL, DRIVERS SEAT
AR9 SEAT, FRT BKT, EUROPEAN STYLE, PASS A DRIVER RECL
AU3 LOCK CONTROL, SIDE DR, ELEC
A31 WINDOW, POWER OPERATED, SIDE
A90 LOCK CONTROL, RR COMPT LID, REM CONT ELEC RELEASE
BC8 ORNAMENTATION, INTR, DR MAP POCKETS
B2L PERFORMANCE PACKAGE & ENGINE PACKAGE V8 5.7LPFI
B84 ORNAMENTATION, EXTR MLDG, B0DY SIDE
CC1 ROOF HATCH, REMOVABLE PANELS, GLASS
C60 HVAC SYSTEM, AIR CONDITIONER FRT MAN CONTROLS
DC4 MIRROR I/S, R/V, TILT, DUAL READING LAMPS
DE4 SUNSHADE, REMOVEABLE HATCH ROOF
DG7 MIRROR 0/S, LH & RH, REM CONT, ELEC, PAINTED
D3Y GEAR, SPEEDO DRIVEN
D81 SPOILER, RR, AERO WING
D9B SENSOR, VEH SPD
E5Z SPEEDOMETER ADAPTER (DELETE)
E9Z KEY, SPEEDOMETER (DELETE)
FE2 SUSPENSION SYSTEM, RIDE HANDLING
GW6 AXLE REAR, 3.27 RATIO
G80 AXLE POSITRACTION, LIMITED SLIP
IPB TRIM, INTERIOR DESIGN
J65 BRAKE SYSTEM, PWR, FRT & RR DISC
KC4 COOLING SYSTEM, ENG OIL
K34 CRUISE CONTROL, AUT0MATIC, ELECTRONIC
K68 GENERATOR,105 AMP
L98 5.7 LITER V8 TPI ENGINE
MD8 TRANSMISSION, AUTO 4 SPD, THM 700 R4
MXO MERCHANDISED, TRANS, AUTO PROVISIONS, O/D
NA5 EMISSION SYSTEM, FEDERAL, TIER O
N10 EXHAUST SYSTEM DUAL
N36 STEERING WHEEL, 4 SPOKES, SPORT
N64 WHEEL & TIRE,SPARE, SPACE SAVER, ALUMINUM
PE0 WHEEL, 16 X 8, ALUMINUM, LIGHT WEIGHT, STYLED
QLC TIRE ALL, P245/50ZR16/N BL R/PE ST TL HW4
R6A PACKAGE, OPTION, T/A AND GTA: CC1, UX1, & OTHERS
R9R CONTROL SALES ITEM 92
TR9 LAMP, GROUP
UB3 CLUSTER, INST, OIL, COOL TEMP, VOLTS, TRIP ODOM, TACH
UF6 LAMP, INTR, CONSOLE, COURTESY
UQ1 RADIO PROVISIONS, FOR STEREO
UT1 TONE GENERATOR, WARNING
UX1 RADIO, AM/FM STEREO CASSETTE EQUALIZER
U25 LAMP, INTR, RR COMPT, COURTESY
U29 LAMP, INTR I/P, COURTESY
U62 SPEAKER SYSTEM, DUAL COAXIAL
U75 ANTENNA, POWER, RADIO
VAN ASSEMBLY PLANT, VAN NUYS, CA
V73 ANTENNA, FIXED
WS6 PERFORMANCE PACKAGE, SPECIAL
WX1 PAINT, TWO TONE-DELETE
W66 MERCHANDISED PKG, FORMULA
1SB PACKAGE, OPTION 02
1SZ PACKAGE, OPTION ??, VALUE GROUP SAVINGS
12P WHEEL COLOR PLATINUM
62W SPRING, COMPUTER SELECTED, FRONT, LEFTHAND
72W SPRING, COMPUTER SELECTED, FRONT, RIGHTHAND
8NL SPRING, COMPUTER SELECTED, REAR, LEFTHAND
81Q MOLDING COLOR, BRIGHT RED
81U PRIMARY COLOR, EXTERIOR, BRIGHT RED
82B TRIM COMBINATION, CLOTH, MEDIUM DARK GRAY
82I INTERIOR TRIM, MEDIUM DARK GRAY
829 SEAT BELT COLOR, MEDIUM DARK GRAY
9NL SPRING, COMPUTER SELECTED, REAR, RIGHTHAND

conlinj

iTrader: (3)

wow talk about bringing a post back... ;-) Well congrats on the purchase of a very clean car :-)

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I wanna see I wanna see MOM!!!!!!!!!!

wheres the pics??????????

sxchonto

I'll be getting pics shortly. I have some work travel and then I will get the pics posted. It was hilarious for me to stumble over the whole thread about the car that I bought. It was an awesome purchase, and despite the factory vs. dealer production, it still has some great features.
1. It is a convertible, not too many of those around
2. 350, with the N10 cats
3. Low miles
4. Everything works, power antenna, both headlights, and rear hatch pulldown.
5. WS6

Thanks for the kind words.

Guest

Bought yours for the same reason I did. You're gonna enjoy it, thats for sure. Might want to look into some subframe connectors though.

I still need to give mine a good tuneup and see if I can make a better pass than 14.9. I'm sure it will, not too bad for a fully loaded stock thirdgen convertible.

sxchonto

MadMax-

What year is your car? Any pics? I have not taken mine to the track (that is why I own a Firehawk), it will mainly be a cruiser.

Out of curiosity, after the heated debate concerning 350 powered convertibles, who else has one? Post some pics, lets see what else is out there.

sxchonto

Madmax-

What type of Subframe Connectors do you have? How much did you pay for the connectors and then how much did it cost to have them installed. I recently added a Kenny Brown 3 point Strut Tower Brace, just that addition helped out tremendously. Have you done anything else to your car? I still want to see some pics.

Guest

As of now, mine is still stock. I have too many other projects to mess with it much. It only has 65k miles and is in pretty good shape besides the seats and front bumper. Its an 89 GTA with the 350 and all the other goodies.

As for subframes, I am probably going to head the Alston route and add some tubing to tie those into the stock subframes at the rockers. I have some rocker rail style subframes on another car, they were around $350 to install but I had some previously unknown rocker damage thanks to a wonderful body shop. Would have been $150 otherwise. Price varies, depending on where you live and if anyone wants to deal with it.

I have a whole bunch of pictures. Here's one.


I think there are about 5 or 6 350 ASC vert owners floating around here. Its pretty funny, if you search the old archives you might just come across a post or more by me arguing that these cars even existed...

sxchonto

MadMax-

I think it would be interesting to see how many of the 89 350 verts were TA's. vs. GTA's vs. Formula's and then breakdown the colors etc. Does anyone else have an 89 Pontiac 350 vert? If so, send in your RPO's and VIN's, along with a pic, lets see what we can find. Thanks for the info on the subframes MadMax, I would recommend the strut brace asap.

Bill Speed

I could have sworn I'd posted on this as well. I have plenty of babble-like posts around this here forum, in particular, regarding my own 'factory' ASC convertible. I just don't really buy the fact convertibles done from dealer vs. GM are any different. They didn't spend time with an owner and then go for conversion. Mine is a 350 TPI auto with the manual droptop and ASC badging. There are also GTAs I've seen. As I was looking at parts options, '86 on up official Camaros seem to be a possibility. There is a nice spec sheet someone linked to elsewhere that gives a good breakdown on models built/ year. The manual was used later in fourth gens and don't forget the rare 3rd gen Firehawk verts as well.

That was likely in the Vert section as well.
The fun thing is people who do comment on your ride ask in particular about the years, (in my case, commenting on the vintage vs. the known last 3rd gens, I suppose) and I wish I could go back now knowing what I've learned. I'm sure I led some others to think it was a custom job as I assumed when I picked mine up. It was a theft recovery in a past life with a new PA VIN assigned, made it more up to speculation, but seems to check out just fine
Piece of GM 1989 history!
BILL

Bill Speed

Here's apic from that recent auction, I'd say it most like mine I think... w/o seeing it in person. I felt mine was oddly special due to the power features endowed... I clammor for power windows
Bill

Bill Speed

I'm a bit miffed by your use of 'ASCD'. What do you think the company is?
From my research, and as FYI for newcomers, the company I had known as American Sunroof Corporation turns out to own (subsidiary) 'sister' company Automotive Specialty Corp., a bit confusing using the same letters I know.

Most people wouldn't associate Sony and Aiwa Electronics but they are related I'm told.

If in fact convertibles were built on the GM assembly line, as stated above via VIN designation, let's see some artifacts of this...pics, blueprints, as has been provided for ASC data
I think the general lack of info causes one to disbelieve the facts.
Anyway, the real goal is to get to the most useful, factual and entertaining info that makes sites like this a great appendum to owning our cars.
As a multiple GM owner, I was also happy to see places like Cadillacforums.com for example as well.

Keep up the good work
BILL

Bill Speed

Yep, 1991 and 92 with the 'Batman'/Banshee styled nose and ground effects only. Wasn't money and parts a large factor in the official status as well...taking a case by case choice instead?
How about asking Jim Wangers over at the Pontiac Enthusiest magazine? If I got any of that wrong, sorry
Most GM people should know ASC was doing conversion before the mid 1980s as well. These are fine conversions and I've seen a few awfully funny looking verts over the years
B

conlinj

iTrader: (3)

I said ASCD i meant ASC just hit an extra letter, and I never said convertibles were built on the assembly line I said they were vin'd with the 3 on the assembly line and shipped to asc

2manyprojects

I've got one too. 89 GTA vert 5.7, 700R4 Flame Red ,saddle leather , tan top . My RPO sticker is missing but the billing invoice I got from PHS shows it as a T top car . when I bought it the previous title showed it as a convertible but when I put it in my name DMV changed it to 2DR SDN they are both VA titles. I'll post a pic when I get a chance to take one

sxchonto

It looks like some folks have responded with their info on their 89 350 powered verts. I think it would be awesome to have Pontiac Enthusiast do an article about those 50 cars, so we can all learn what the story was then, and what is the story now. I think it would be a fun learning experience. BillSpeed, you have the only white 89 Formula Vert 350 that I have seen. In fact, I have only seen these verts in Black, white or red. Does any one have one that is a different color (stock color)?

88TPI

Does anyone know if there is a difference between rpo L98 and B2L ?

okfoz

L98 = 5.7L engine
B2L = Option package, it included on firebirds: L98 5.7 Liter engine, KC4 Engine oil cooler, WS6 = performance suspension, J65 4 wheel disc & G80 Ltd slip axel

John

88TPI

Thanks John . HUGE Help .

okfoz

Funny thing... I found this thread, and I own the car in question... And I decided to move the thread from History to convertibles

slimwhitman

It is funny how little the forum members knew at the time about the ASC conversions.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Yeah, I was thinkn' the same thing..

okfoz

Truth be told, there was little data out there, or at least it was hidden. Back when I got into third gens, 350 Cars were NA with T-tops... Then it was something else that was not true... Ultimately we have actually gotten a decent grip on things, however every now and then something pops up that just shakes the "facts." The best example is the 1992 Yellow Formula 1LE with T-tops and A/C... It is not supposed to exist, however it did exist at compnine.com when it was around and there has been at least one article written on it.

I think with our continued research into these cars it will only get better.

John

hardon85

I just found this thread and it was pretty interesting to read it's cool that a car that sparked such a debate is still owned by a member.

I think this debate has pretty well died but one thing I wanted to add was it all depends on what your definition of what factory is. ASC was not GM and from what I can tell ASC does no manufacturer authorized conversions today but I could be wrong. I guess I really wouldn't consider any convertible factory but that's just me since ASC has no affiliation with GM other than they did some work on their cars. I guess what I'm saying is it wasn't GM's factory that made convertibles so I have a hard time calling any of them factory. Now this is just my opinion and I don't want to start another argument but that's how I look at it.

But in the end does it really matter? I would much rather have an ASC convertible no matter what the vin is over any of the other convertible conversions mainly because it is the best looking conversion in my opinion. And John have you ever told anyone about the car and have them say "Awe that's to bad it's a 2 vin'd car instead of a 3"? I'm guessing no. I think it's all about drop top cruising no matter what the vin says and John have you enjoyed your car any less because it's a 2 vin'd car?

platynumx

not trying to flame/argue/be sarcastic but....why do you have a hard time calling them factory? GM (for whatever reason) didn't have the capacity/crew/engineers to do a conversion.They outsourced it ..like the SLP cars. Using that logic is like saying no GM(hell any car company) car ever had factory tires.GM doesnt have a rubber plant to the best of my knowledge. lol again i mean no disrespect.

hardon85

No I take no disrespect from that at all. Like I said that's just how I look at it. I guess it's never been defined what is factory and what is not. Your tire point is a fair one and I'm sure there are many more examples like that, I remember talking to a dealer years back (who is very sharp and a personal friend) and I was telling him how I would only drive GM products because I didn't like how ford or Chrysler did things and he gave me numerous examples of all the different parts that were made by the same company for all manufacturers, which I was shocked about and as this conversation took place 10 years ago I can't even remember any the parts right now.

I guess I think the term "GM or Chevy or Pontiac authorized" is a much better term than "Factory" and the reason I say this is yes they were all produced at factories (even all the other conversion makers) but I work at a factory and if they would let me pull my car in there and cut the top off of it then technically this would be a factory conversion even though the factory it was done in had nothing to do with cars. I know I wouldn't consider this a factory conversion and I don't think anyone else would either.

Also I think the reason GM didn't have the capacity or probably the desire to produce the convertible themselves was they never intended it to be and if nobody else had ever done it I have a hard time believing that GM would've ever, otherwise why did they make the car so flexible? From what I understand the 4th gen convertible was produced at the same plant that the rest of the car was. Remember these cars were initially being designed in the late 70s when GM had put out what they claimed was the last GM convertible in 1975 or 1976.

okfoz

From what I can gather, GM and ASC engineered the vehicles together. Articles at the time, show a ASC & GM engineering joint effort... When the cars were made at Norwood and Van Nuys, the factories were outdated and small, the problem was that there was not a place to where the cars could be converted on site.

hardon85,
I have a question for you, What would be the difference if a car was manufactured, and converted off site, vs manufactured and converted onsite. The reason I ask is from 1983-1992 ASC did many conversions onsite, I think the Cavalier, Sunbird was converted at the factory, whereas the Camaro/Firebird was converted at an ASC facility

Moreover from 1993-??? ASC actually was the supplier for the conversion for the F-body. Thus one of the reasons why production was moved to Canada, because Van Nuys nor Norwood had the facilities to actually do the conversion onsite. When the design of the cars became outdated due to crash tests in 2003, the line was dropped, there was a contractual agreement with the UAW that mandated that the F-body be produced something like 15 years in Sainte-Thérèse, thus why the Camaro returned in March 2009

Moreover GM did produce a convertible after 1976, the Solstice & Sky are some current examples.

Some other ASC interactions with GM:
Cavalier & Sunbird/Sunfire Convertible 82? - ?
Riviera & Eldorado Convertible 83 - 85
Raeatta Convertible 91-92
Corvette Convertible 86-96

ASC also made the WS6 package from 1998-2002, and they made the "Collector Edition" 2002 Trans Am. Clearly ASC was being used an arm of GM to convert cars.

Because there was no "Official" Firebird Convertible, the closest one could ever get for those years that it was not officially offered was to get one converted by ASC, as they made every Factory convertible from 1987 - 2002 onsite or offsite.

hardon85

Honestly it makes absolutely no difference to me what so ever, my whole point on this in people calling a vin 3 car factory and a vin 2 car non factory is kind of silly when they are basically the same car made by the same group of people and if you want to split hairs on it in my opinion neither one of them is factory. If you ask me the 3rd gen convertible is the best looking convertible ever made (ASC only), if the top is down they always look finished so to speak, I've heard on cars with an electric top putting the tonnau (however it's spelled) cover on can be quite difficult and I used to see several convertibles driving around town without that cover off and it always looked kind of strange I guess or unfinished. But to me since the car does look so good I could care less if it was made by GM at their factory, ASC's factory, Chip Foose or my neighbor in his garage I think the car is awesome looking and as soon as I can find one I want I will own one.

Also I want to clarify what I was talking about with the 1976 being the last year for the convertible. I also did say that GM CLAIMED that was the last convertible ever, I realize there was more after. To make a long story short according to Wikipedia (which I know can be inaccurate) the 1976 Eldorado was the only American made convertible and GM promoted it as being the last American convertible (Which would have been close to the time the 3rd gen was being developed) and when GM reintroduced convertibles in 1983 many who had bought these had tried to sue GM for false advertising or whatever. So my point to bringing that up was I don't think GM ever planned on making the 3rd gen a convertible.

Sorry I guess it seems like the argument is kind of starting all over again but like I've said it's just my opinion and it certainly doesn't mean that anyone else has to have the same opinion as me. And I also mean absolutely no disrespect to any convertible owners or the convertible cars themselves I think they are beautiful. Thank you.

okfoz

I took it as no disrespect. Jsut trying to better understand your opinion.

Honestly look here: http://www.jaxed.com/cgi-bin/mash.cg...mit=++++go++++

Several 350 powered ASC Firebird, GTA & Trans Am Convertibles up for sale....

It changes daily, but as of today there are 3 on there.

88mm5ul5

Interesting thread I have a 88 red Iroc convertible, vin has a the 3, I'll check too see if it has the cc1 on the rpo sticker, too see it it was ttop car at once before it was "factory approved"( not dealer or customer approved )before being sent out to asc, would be interesting to here of a hard top car with a vin 3. My car has Tpi(F305) auto, g80 with drums,pwr windows, manual top. I was understood you couldn't order disc in the rear on a vert, not sure if that's true.my car is parked at my grandmothers house so it'll take me a couple days to check it, and hope it helps with any extra added info