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I’ve done the whole ground pounding stereo thing back in the 90s in a Honda Accord Wagon. Between that experience and the life of a heavy equipment tech, I’d say the tinnitus level is mild to moderate.
My ‘85 Firebird has a completely uncut harness. I can’t even begin to justify cutting up this car as it is so original. However, that doesn’t mean I’m not looking to improve upon what’s already here. The audio is such a let down, probably the worst feature of these cars.
What I’m talking about is making the best out if what’s here and adding only enough sub to match (likely a powered bazooka tube).
I don’t have access to the equipment I used back in the day, so it’ll be tuned by ear and the modest replacement style JVC deck equipped with its own eq.
Im thinking of adding passive high and low filters at the speakers, possibly fibreglass baffles for the dash speakers. Only speakers from the GM catalog.
GM radios powered 2 front 10 OHM speakers and 2 4 OHM rear speakers; SOME cars also had 10-OHM speakers in the rear.
An aftermarket head unit is almost certainly made to power 4-OHM speakers & 4 OHM speakers would sound better with the aftermarket head unit.
GM did make 4x6 4-OHM ( Fiero ) and 6x9 4-OHM ( various cars ) speakers. I'd check speaker requirements of the radio & the rear speakers that are currently installed to see exactly what you've got back there, and consider using 4-OHM speakers ( GM or otherwise ) all-around to best match the aftermarket radios specs.
GM radios powered 2 front 10 OHM speakers and 2 4 OHM rear speakers; SOME cars also had 10-OHM speakers in the rear.
An aftermarket head unit is almost certainly made to power 4-OHM speakers & 4 OHM speakers would sound better with the aftermarket head unit.
GM did make 4x6 4-OHM ( Fiero ) and 6x9 4-OHM ( various cars ) speakers. I'd check speaker requirements of the radio & the rear speakers that are currently installed to see exactly what you've got back there, and consider using 4-OHM speakers ( GM or otherwise ) all-around to best match the aftermarket radios specs.
Thanks for the input John. I have replaced the front speakers with units from a 2001 Cavalier, they’re a coax design with a plate mounted tweeter (I’ll post up some pictures later). They measure 3.9 ohms on my dmm.
unfortunately google provides very little info on the deck itself,
JVC KS-RX710J
I’m going to start with some first order high pass capacitors, then go with the deepest baffles I can get and some polyfil to see if I can settle down the mid bass. I don’t want to mod the grills but it might be necessary to get the most out of the front stage.
Last edited by theraymondguy; 05-29-2021 at 10:59 PM.
Is it really "cutting up the car" if all you do is slowly and gently remove the interior to run new cable and just swap the speakers and HU?
Not criticizing your goal and ambitions... iIm 100% with you on keeping your car clean and mint. I'm saving up to redo my audio system and I'm not excited about pulling up the interior and mounting the tweeters and other equipment. Just my 2 cents. Good luck on the project and sorry for not being able to offer better advice.
[QUOTE=ThePain;6428141]Is it really "cutting up the car" if all you do is slowly and gently remove the interior to run new cable and just swap the speakers and HU?
Not criticizing your goal and ambitions... iIm 100% with you on keeping your car clean and mint. I'm saving up to redo my audio system and I'm not excited about pulling up the interior and mounting the tweeters and other equipment. Just my 2 cents. Good luck on the project and sorry for not being able to offer better]
I intend to pull the speakers, Ill be adding baffles, passive filters and maybe some polyfil. The headunit is already swapped, i used a harness adapter and the replacement deck was a purpose built factory replacement from jvc.
Ive got the pieces to build a pretty solid system. Phoenix Gold MS225 for the front, MS275 for the sub, line driver, Audio Control EQ etc., i purchased a spare trunk cover to cut up...
I hear what you're saying, it can be done... but ive tinnitus and some definite hearing loss. Whatever I do has to be mellow. I want to enjoy what's left for years to come.
If I can build a system with oem style components (at least drop in fit) on deck power I'll be very satisfied. The car is already slower than my wife's Kia, it should at least sound just as good.
Back in the ‘90s you were honoured if your car was deemed “good enough” for a session in the shop with an RTA. Now everyone has a facsimile in the palm of their hand.
Im using the CD input on the deck, feeding it a pink noise track I borrowed off of dynaudios website.
Almost anything can affect the curve. You have to be honest with yourself and setup the listening experience as close to reality as you can. Try to get the flattest curve you can with your equalizer out of the equation as that’s what you’ll be correcting with later. Flat curves are cold and offer little entertainment value in real life m, but leave you with the widest tuning range.
For my baseline I’ll be t tops off in my closed garage. I managed to get a quick session in before the neighborhood fired up the lawnmowers.
Baseline. EQ, fade & balance centered. Good grief, the ‘best’ I can get with the eq. Note the range, I’m learning the software as I go. I’ve got to get a red lens for the decks face plate too.
Note how futzing with the eq just made the curve ‘angry’. You’ve got to make the most out of the environment (baffles, sound deadening) and get your speakers in the neighborhood prior to “correcting” the signal. Ideally the curve would be something like below. Note how flat and smooth it is.
Last edited by theraymondguy; 05-30-2021 at 12:35 PM.
Yes, it’s my opinion you could drop some serious coin on speakers for these cars only to be frustrated by the “quality” of sound. The dash is a regular pin ball machine, with a thousand odd shapes for the waves to bounce off of and no way to direct the sound toward the listener. The A pillars are massive port shaped holes lined with deadening material - again - away from the listener. I’m guessing I can spend $75 (CDN) improving the environment and achieve far more than I can with a $200 set of speakers.
or just drop a battery powered speaker in the back seat and enjoy some jams and still keep'r stock!
Not gonna lie, I actually had to do this for awhile when my stock stereo was acting up. The speakers would screech something absolutely horrible randomly and suddenly. Happened for a few weeks then disappeared. Still have no idea to this day what that was all about.
Here in the rust belt, pretty much everything older than the millennium has gone to the crusher.
The ONLY 4 ohm speakers commonly available in the GM lineup are in pre ‘02 Cavalier. They’re 4x6 and 6x9, both coax with a 4 ohm woofer and a 10 ohm tweeter.
below, cavalier 4x6 with speaker baffles lined with polyfil. This is full send mode, trying to calm the 150 - 300 Hz range. I’ve sealed the speakers to the baffles with silicone. I can add a port later if they’re too restricted.
Last edited by theraymondguy; 06-03-2021 at 08:18 PM.
Don’t any aftermarket speakers plug into the factory harness? Took out what I believe were the factory speakers in my car and my new Alpines plugged right in. Maybe the previous owner replaced the speakers?
Also, that head unit is awesome! Looks somewhat period correct too. I’m gonna have to buy one of those. Not having actual eq control is killing me.
Don’t any aftermarket speakers plug into the factory harness? Took out what I believe were the factory speakers in my car and my new Alpines plugged right in. Maybe the previous owner replaced the speakers?
Also, that head unit is awesome! Looks somewhat period correct too. I’m gonna have to buy one of those. Not having actual eq control is killing me.
Ive never scene an aftermarket speaker that’d plug into the oem harness directly, there are adapters available?
Unfortunately it appears my experiment has failed:
- The Firebird dash grills reduce the “area” of the speaker, reducing the sound volume and clarity - the difference between listening with the dash removed vs installed is night and day.
- The oem and JVC decks just don’t have great capacity to produce a decent curve. Even with the EQ and tweaking the IPhone sound there just isn’t enough highs and way too much booming mid bass. I proved this wasn’t a speaker issue by swapping in a set of Clarion 4” (custom plate for divers side) and putting proper crossovers on the 6x9s.
The curve was basically no different, if not worse. I’ll back that statement up later this week when I reinstall my modernish Alpine deck.
I’m guessing the Alpine will restore part of the curve, but it’s still not going to be what I want.
I’m going to post the curve for the alpine for comparison, but I’m ending the effort there.
I’ll be building a custom set of 6.5” kick panels and a sub in the trunk lid - pretty much exactly what I didn’t want to do. My wife was kind enough to point out just how much the audio sucked on our last outing, so challenge accepted . In fairness to her, I did sacrifice one of her favourite cutting boards for that custom 4” plate…
I’ll be using replacement panels for the mods and storing the originals. I’ve got an idea on how to manage power cabling for the amps.
Thanks for your interest in the thread.
Last edited by theraymondguy; 06-09-2021 at 05:15 AM.
Like you, my harness was uncut and I did not want to hack into it. These worked great.
I've been greatly enjoying what you have been doing with the sound system! That JVC deck is very slick. From what I understand, the factory decks are very limited in sound quality. I have not found any good, period correct upgrades. This 1.5 DIN is tough!
Well, something I hadn’t thought of: I’ve no means to play a pink noise track on the Alpine, maybe I can find a CD-R.
Already with the Alpine in place I can hear a significant improvement in stage and range. The clarion 4” plates certainly play a roll here, I’ve left them in the dash for now with 150Hz passive cross overs on. I will be going back to the Cavalier speakers as place holders as the proper audio build ramps up. I have faith in them over the standard dual cone and would like to see how they perform with a better signal. I truly believe these would be a significant budget upgrade - if you can find a good set, they are 20 years old now.
Which Alpine deck are you using? Something as retro as the JVC?
Oh I wish. They’re wildly expensive these days. It’s an early 2000s CDE 9873 iirc. It has an on board 11 band electronic eq which is what drew me to it.
I was excited to follow in your footsteps and at least try some better, stock speakers. Raided a 98 Cavalier today at the pull-a-part, along with a CD player from a Grand Prix with equalizer to play with.
Was scrolling thru this thread and realized the speakers I found look nothing like what you posted above. Sound ok, but not the coax that you have. Rats! Any pointers on which vehicles to look for to grab the right stuff? Pictures of the fronts. Can feel they are just a single cone. Rears the same.
CD player wouldn't read discs. Not a big deal except I think I need that to work in order to wire in an aux cable or bluetooth. Also, display bulb was out. Bust of a trip!
I'm heading back the the yard tomorrow to return the wrong version of the Cavalier speakers. I've been sitting for more info on the setup you found, seems like they came as an option in the Preferred Audio System. Did your rear units come with four input wires? It seems like they might be driven by a small, factory amp.
On the units I grabbed, the front speakers measured 4 ohm, the rear at 10 Ohm. So, similar setup to a third gen, just reversed from 10 ohm front, 4 ohm rear. I am running a factory head unit from a 90s Grand Prix, so a bit concerned about running 4 ohm speakers both front and rear.
I'm heading back the the yard tomorrow to return the wrong version of the Cavalier speakers. I've been sitting for more info on the setup you found, seems like they came as an option in the Preferred Audio System. Did your rear units come with four input wires? It seems like they might be driven by a small, factory amp.
On the units I grabbed, the front speakers measured 4 ohm, the rear at 10 Ohm. So, similar setup to a third gen, just reversed from 10 ohm front, 4 ohm rear. I am running a factory head unit from a 90s Grand Prix, so a bit concerned about running 4 ohm speakers both front and rear.
I found mine in an '01 Cavalier Sedan. Later Sunfire coupes have a 4x6 component setup which would likely be the best, but you'll have to do some wiring to make it work. I'm a big fan of tweeters down low and 'rising' off the bottom of the dash.
I'm going have to dust off my Spark-O-Matic. (the top one)
My first ever effort for car audio, a sparkomatic with FF, no reverse and a tone ****. I don't think it made it 3 months before swapping it out for a bottom end Kenwood.
Actually that top of the line Sparko kicked a$$ and had the fastest auto search auto reverse tape deck that I've ever seen.
And I have worked on a bunch - I was radio & tv licensed back in the day.
I think that the reason I took it out was that I probably wore out the cassette deck to the point that cassetes were getting stuck.
Not a problem - even a dinosaur like me doesn't use cassettes anymore. I'm stuck on jump drives with mp3 music files.
Last edited by NoEmissions84TA; 06-17-2021 at 05:06 PM.
Got lucky on my scrounging trip yesterday. Returned the OEM Cavalier speakers that were not the coax ones. Went first to the two Pontiac Sunfires in the yard. As chance would have it, the second one - a convertible - had the markings of the component speaker system, with the tweeter bulge on the door panel. After getting the panels off, discovered that the original speakers had been replaced with Sony XPlode units. Nothing fancy, but all in good shape. Both the 4x6s and 6x9s are 4-way, which does not make any sense to me, but at the bargain price of about $30 for the set, I won't complain. Have the rears in and my adapters for the front speakers just arrived (Metra 72-4500). Likely be heading out to the garage later this afternoon to pull the dash pad and swap those in.
All the speakers are 4-ohm, so I will be keeping close eyes on the Grand Prix head unit. If any clipping or cutting out, I might first put a 4-6 ohm power resistor in series to the front speakers. Will see. Letting the speakers rest in the shade while I tackled removing a complete wiring setup for an amp from a 4th gen Camaro. 4x6s in the OEM housing for the Sunfire 6x9s
Actually that top of the line Sparko kicked a$$ and had the fastest auto search auto reverse tape deck that I've ever seen.
And I have worked on a bunch - I was radio & tv licensed back in the day.
I think that the reason I took it out was that I probably wore out the cassette deck to the point that cassetes were getting stuck.
Not a problem anymore - even a dinosaur like me doesn't use cassettes anymore. I'm stuck on jump drives with mp3 music files.
Lol, I had my teenage daughter upload my CD's onto my itunes. I may not be ready for new technology.
Got lucky on my scrounging trip yesterday. Returned the OEM Cavalier speakers that were not the coax ones. Went first to the two Pontiac Sunfires in the yard. As chance would have it, the second one - a convertible - had the markings of the component speaker system, with the tweeter bulge on the door panel. After getting the panels off, discovered that the original speakers had been replaced with Sony XPlode units. Nothing fancy, but all in good shape. Both the 4x6s and 6x9s are 4-way, which does not make any sense to me, but at the bargain price of about $30 for the set, I won't complain. Have the rears in and my adapters for the front speakers just arrived (Metra 72-4500). Likely be heading out to the garage later this afternoon to pull the dash pad and swap those in.
All the speakers are 4-ohm, so I will be keeping close eyes on the Grand Prix head unit. If any clipping or cutting out, I might first put a 4-6 ohm power resistor in series to the front speakers. Will see. Letting the speakers rest in the shade while I tackled removing a complete wiring setup for an amp from a 4th gen Camaro. 4x6s in the OEM housing for the Sunfire 6x9s
The issue with the 6x9's is that they'll pull the 'stage' to the rear - sound like the singer is behind you. A bad situation made worse in that the dash location already sounds mono. If it's not too late, I'd definitely try the 4x6's with the factory 6x9s in place.
The issue with the 6x9's is that they'll pull the 'stage' to the rear - sound like the singer is behind you. A bad situation made worse in that the dash location already sounds mono. If it's not too late, I'd definitely try the 4x6's with the factory 6x9s in place.
I believe every bit of what you are saying! I'm no audiophile, but even I have a hard time believing someone would buy (new) 4-way 6x9s. I can picture the mental conversation... "If 2-way is good, then 3-way is better. And 4-way will kick a$$! DONE!"
I still have the factory original rear speakers, but one of them was getting some rattling going on. Had replaced them last year with a pair of old Polk speakers that were from My parts car. One cone was damaged and I repaired it with with some contact cement. That repair started to fail, so it was a good time to start looking for replacements. My plan is to keep the rears in for now and be on the hunt again for alternatives. I have never dabbled in amps, might try a small one to drive a good set of rear speakers. Yesterday, I pulled a full wiring set up for an amp from a 4th gen, so have that ready if I opt to go that route.
The fronts actually fit without cutting. I checked measurements online against photos i took when I had the full dash out of this car. The grills are a little wobbly, just be resting a bit on the speakers. Might try a small strip of foam tape to lift them up a hair.
I believe every bit of what you are saying! I'm no audiophile, but even I have a hard time believing someone would buy (new) 4-way 6x9s. I can picture the mental conversation... "If 2-way is good, then 3-way is better. And 4-way will kick a$$! DONE!"
I still have the factory original rear speakers, but one of them was getting some rattling going on. Had replaced them last year with a pair of old Polk speakers that were from My parts car. One cone was damaged and I repaired it with with some contact cement. That repair started to fail, so it was a good time to start looking for replacements. My plan is to keep the rears in for now and be on the hunt again for alternatives. I have never dabbled in amps, might try a small one to drive a good set of rear speakers. Yesterday, I pulled a full wiring set up for an amp from a 4th gen, so have that ready if I opt to go that route.
The fronts actually fit without cutting. I checked measurements online against photos i took when I had the full dash out of this car. The grills are a little wobbly, just be resting a bit on the speakers. Might try a small strip of foam tape to lift them up a hair.
that 4x6 fits mint. Arguably every speaker should be sealed to the grill with foam tape.
ideally every speaker would have its own amp. That’s just not realistic, a 4x50 watt “real amp (.001 thd 50w @ 4ohm) ” would really light up your factoryish setup, preferably one with a built in crossover. I’d cut the 4x6 off below 120Hz, the 6x9s off above 250Hz. Audio control has some amazing line level amps but at significant cost. The factory decks are the first limiting factor, maybe you can come across a decent deck (Alpine Pioneer/Premier) for a reasonable price?
I’m learning quickly that there is no real performance to be had with the stock location and layout.
05-28-2021, 02:46 PM
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/car-audio/765806-10-ohm-front-speakers.html
