SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

I have the Baer SPORT Kit now and am either going to dump it or "upgrade" to the TRACK kit. Now, I'm seeing that the TRACK kit is the 13" (C4 Rotor?) version. Is that the only difference? Yes, the SPORT 12" is a turned down 13", but after looking quickly at the caliper bracket and/or the caliper itself - it doesn't look like a 13" rotor will tuck into it (without a modified caliper OR caliper bracket OR caliper carrier and bracket). I may be wrong.

So, back to the original question - will the SPORT kit accept a 13" rotor without any other parts needed or modification?

If not, I think I'm just going to change my front setup - as I have the rear Baer TOURING kit and 12" seems to be more than enough for the rear.

Thanks!!

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I can't imagine a situation where you could change rotor diameter without changing the bracket. If that were true, your pads would be sticking above the edge of the rotor now.

What other kits are you thinking about?

What are you using the car for?

John

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

Quite frankly, I just want something that STOPS, lol. These are OKAY, but the performance aspect of them aren't that great. You really have to "lean into" the pedal to get them to stop. I have a new 4th gen Master, new booster and new proportioning valves and all new lines. It's been "power" bled as well. I'm just not that satisfied with their performance.

I'm not too sure what other kits to go for. I like their appearance (as I have the polished calipers), if they would only perform as good as they look.

Now, if I NEED to change the brackets, which would they be? The carrier? The Spindle to Carrier? The Caliper itself? All of the above?

I'd rather do an "easy" fix, vs. changing to let's say, a Wilwood which is basically the same performance I'm guessing - being 2pot caliper, etc.

Would a different Master help? Eliminate the proportioning valve and re-plumb something else?

This is a street car that MAY see some track use. It will be of show quality.

Thanks for your suggestions and help!

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

From what you say it sounds like you are looking for brakes that require less pedal effort, is that correct?

The C4 and C4HD brakes, which are basically what you have, but your rotor is even smaller, are very high effort due to the small caliper pistons and pedal travel is very short for the same reason.

Pedal effort for your kit would be 18% HIGHER than stock. And travel is about 61% of stock.

What are you feelings on your current pedal travel? It should be very short.

Going to the 13" rotor will make the pedal effort 7% HIGHER than stock with a pedal travel of 56% of stock. Not much difference IMO.

If you are willing to accept a longer pedal travel, but still shorter than stock, I really like the numbers on the Wilwood FSL large bore calipers. Them on the 13" C4HD rotor would make effort be 79% of stock with the pedal travel 76% of stock.

Or even an LS1 kits would have a softer pedal than what you have now. See chart below.

Right click - view image for a larger version

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

Really good info!

It's been awhile since I've driven it (currently doing major body work), but from what I recall, there was a bit of pedal travel and it seemed to take quite awhile before it would actually "slow down". You had to stay on it quite a bit.

Now, with todays cars, or even my '02 Monte Carlo SS, pedal travel seems to be next to nothing before it starts to slow down. Even the 2013's for instance, you simply TOUCH the pedal and you can feel yourself jerking in the seats!

Now, keep in mind, this has nothing to do with ABS, etc. etc. It still has the same dia. brake lines, seems to have the same MC/Booster setup. I just can't figure out why my current setup seems to be so "slow" (for lack of a better term).

If what you're saying is correct, it's due to the smaller bore size on the calipers themselves? Under that premise, are stock "new" cars or even my referenced MC have bigger bore calipers? I was thinking possibly it's a Master Cylinder issue (Wilwood sells different ones, but not sure if they vary from the stock 4th gen I'm running) - or possibly the Proportioning Valve (again, I saw a few aftermarket ones of these as well).

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree and it may very well be the bore size on the calipers. If that is the case, I will look into those FSL's, as I would much rather prefer a "tight" stopping vehicle, vs. the "long drawn out - slowing dowwwwn" feel it has now.

Thanks for any input!

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

87350,

I just saw many of your posts and machine work for different setups, very nice! You really speak highly of the Wilwood FSL as well.

That being said, is this the ideal caliper to use: 120-11135

Also, will my current spindle accommodate them, just using a different spindle to carrier bracket? I'm assuming I'll need a new carrier bracket as well - being that this is a different caliper casting.

Would you be able to provide all these pieces that I would need to make these calipers work? Do you know if they clear a 17" also?

Let me know what you think, as well as your thoughts on the MC, Proportioning Valve, etc.

Thank you!

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

The Baer brakes you currently have should have a very short pedal. I believe you are saying your pedal is not that short. In that case something else may be going on.

Some things to think about.

1. I assume your brake pedal and vaccum booster is stock.

2. A booster swap will certainly change the characteristics of the pedal. A larger bore will yield a shorter pedal that requires more effort. A smaller bore will yield a longer pedal that requires less effort. Did you bench bleed your master before installing?

3. Are you using the OEM prop valve? If so, I would recommend going to an adjustable valve that will allow you to get the most out of your current brakes.

4. You mention brake line size. Our cars actually came with 1/4" or 6mm rear brake lines stock. All modern cars use 3/16" or metric equivalent. The smaller line has lower compliance that the larger. I am in the process of converting my rear lines to 3/16". I however doubt this is the cause of your problems.

Here is what I would do first. Get your self a brake fluid pressure gauge and see what kind of pressure you are getting at each caliper. You should be able to develop 1000psi at the front with no issue with the car running (vacuum booster). You should be able to hit at least 400psi on the rears depending on your prop valve. The gauge should be rock solid.

If the pressure starts tapering off, you may have an internal leak in the master cylinder.

If you can't get 1000psi on the fronts, you issue likely lies with the booster, master, or you have air in the lines.

If you get a rock solid 1000psi then the brakes are likely in good working order and your issue lies with component sizing.

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

Brake pedal is stock, booster is a brand new Bendix reman. unit.

The master cylinder was bench bled before installing.
Keep in mind this is an LT1 4th gen master, which I believe is a different bore size than stock 3rd gen. This could be a potential mismatch in components as you had mentioned.

The Proportioning Valve is a brand new OEM unit (4 wheel disc). I was thinking of doing the "spring swap" with it to a tighter coil spring to give more pressure to the rears - which may/may not be fully engaging as of now.

I changed all the brake lines, and now that you mentioned 3/16", I believe that is what I used all around. I couldn't recall the sizes so didn't bring it up - thanks for that!

The gauge idea is great! I will do that and now I at least know what I "should" be getting - in terms of pressure. It will be quite some time before I get around to it, so I believe this topic will get "buried".

In the general sense of this topic, would you recommend switching calipers to the FSL's regardless? Would this increase the "feel" of the brakes - in my earlier reference to, "jerking you in the seat" by the full clamping force exerted on the rotor?

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Yes, that is the caliper that I use. They would require a different adapter bracket. These calipers, being fixed calipers do not have abutment brackets. All you would need is the new adapter brackets. You existing spindles will work fine as long as they modified in the same way as most other brake kits would require. I only use 90-92 for the larger upper mounting boss, but many people also successfully use the earlier spindles.

I can provide any and all parts for the conversion.

Wheel fitment depends on the particular wheel. These fit the OEM IROC 16's as well as most 17's. What wheels are you using?

John

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

Honestly I would not recommend changing any hardware until you do some testing with your current stuff. You may find you really like them with just a minor fix.

With that said, no matter the master cylinder you are using, the Wilwoods will make your pedal effort significantly lower while increasing pedal travel , but still only 76% of stock. Only you can tell if you would like that better. Brakes are really all about feel, and everyone is different.

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for all the recommendations and suggestions John!

I will do a pressure test first and foremost and see where I'm at.

I will definately keep in touch once I have some answers.

Thanks again! Much appreciated!

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Is the motor stock or does it have a cam?
What lines are you using? Rubber or braided stainless?
Also what pads are you using? The BAER pads/OEM GM? Once you get things lined out, maybe a pad swap could help a lil bit also.

I run 13s front and rear with the 2 piece rotors on all 4 corners. Saves 5lbs a rotor.

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

It's a cam'd 383 LT1.
Braided Stainless Lines.
Pads WERE the ones that came with BAER, but were then swapped w/ the local Duralast from Crapzone, lol.
It wasn't really any different than what I was describing - even w/ the BAER pads.

I'll keep the rear setup, but I suppose I could always swap for the 2 piece front/back also. However, I'm going to check the pressures and see if anything else is at fault here first before I go any further.

Oh, and btw, you say you're 13's front to back....what calipers are you using? What is your setup? How does it perform?

Thanks!

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Having a large cam in a motor will make the pedal soft/ spongy if it doesn't make the same amount of vacuum as a stock motor.

Stock 3rdgen booster/master
BAER 2 piece frt rear 13" rotors.
2 piston PBR caliper front and stock 1piston PBR caliper in rear.
5 piece Braided lines
Baer/GM pads

For as old and "outdated" it is, I think it works well, firm pedal, and the travel isn't 2 bad for my cam. I put the Baer 13" frnt and rear rotor kit on back in 99? and upgraded the rotors about 6-7 yrs ago?

13" and new 2 piece 13"


New 13" rotor on left and stock size 11.7ish on right.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

2pc rotors are wonderful but are not the fix for your issue.

I'm sure you everyone here knows that, but I wanted to be clear just in case.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

I guess I should have stated that for those that don't know.
I would think his cam isn't producing enuff vacuum to operate the brakes like a factory setup would.

87350IROC

iTrader: (2)

I would guess it depends how big the cam is.

SweetRide45

iTrader: (2)

At idle, off the top of my head if I can remember (again, haven't driven it in quite some time), it's making about 15 in/hg of vac...should be sufficient to work the booster I think.

Yeah, and I know, the 2 piece rotors won't make THAT big of a diff, if at all.