91_Formula

iTrader: (1)

Hello all,

I have been reading and searching through the ton of posts so I hope I haven't missed the following some where:

Where is the point of diminishing returns for braking prower on a brake upgrades for a 3rd gen?

Example (using imaginary numbers):

System 1 - 30% better - $
System 2 - 60% better - $$
System 3 - 75% better - $$$
System 4 - 90% better - $$$$$$
System 5 - 95% better - $$$$$$$$$

I am trying to find what would equate to System 3 in the above.
My car is a 91 WS6 Formula that is currently bone stock but will eventually be in the 10's, but I want to start with the brakes. It will be used for drag racing and street driving. I will buy what ever size rims I need to fit the brakes. I would prefer to stay in the 16" - 17" range for the rims (for the fronts). And I am looking for the lightest system I can manage. The most promising I have seen so far is a 12" system from ebmiller with 2 part wilwood rotors and 4 pot calipers.

Thanks

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

IMO the best bang for the buck is stock LS1 (98-02 F-body) brakes up front; and anything with PBRs in the rear (89-92 3rd gen, or 4th gen)

On your scale, it's probably more like a 4.

Anything Wilwood, Brembo, etc. tends to be more $$$ for the same or less results. Sometimes even using the same parts, just with their name on it (to be fair to them, they DO have to liability-insure them, and do research, and provide a warranty, and so on). Those kinds of things are for when there's no junkyard, or near-junkyard, stock swap-up available.

l_dis_travlr

What I found out when restoring/upgrading the brakes on the Formula:
Rotor/caliper upgrades get VERY pricey in a big hurry. And the advice
of a knowledgable parts counterman was that unless the intention is
to do serious Auto-Cross, or Road Race applications, the aftermarket
upgrades are probably not cost effective. Best bang for the buck,
is get discs on the rear, and upgrade all pads. For the rear, there's
several options, which searching around here ought to illuminate.
And the easiest will be to switch the entire axle. Several factory
configs are available, the least attractive being the (Australian)
9-bolt config. Good luck & happy hunting.

kk

91_Formula

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the input I guess I had over looked the easy path being changing the pads. I am fortunate that I have discs in the back already (Stock WS6).

I wasn't very happy with the brakes this past summer, perhaps a pad change is order before I grab a new set of brakes.

If that fails is there a brake setup that is as durable or better, lighter with better braking performance than stock at say the $1000 price point? Maybe that is the question I should have asked the first time...

JamesC

iTrader: (5)

Since you have PBR's in the rear, yes, there are several options for the fronts which should easily cost less than a grand--Spohn's 1LE kit for example (if you like matching calipers). Ed Miller no doubt offers something cheaper. You might consider PMing him.

JamesC

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Out of all the "stock" sysems you could use for an upgrade, probably the worst is the 1LE; not for any kind of technical reason or function or anything like that (they all "work" fine), but rather, the common-ness of replacement parts in the world at large.

Stick with a system that is PLENTIFUL on the road. That way, whenever you need pads or something, you'll actually be able to find them, on the spot. The more "exotic" you go, the tougher that becomes. In the case of the 1LE stuff, there never were more than a couple thousand of those in THE WHOLE WORLD; so parts, when even available, tend to be special order. On the other hand, there's plenty of 98-02 F bodies around, so those are a fast-moving item, stocked everywhere. Check your local parts store's inventory of pads, calipers, rotors, and any other parts, if you want to verify that.... I think you'll see what the problem is.

All of the common "stock" upgrade candidate systems for the front of these cars (1LE, LS1, LT1, C4, C4 HD, C5) bolt on pretty much the same way, require about the same amount and nature of work, and cost about the same except for the calipers themselves (Vette ANYTHING always costs more than ANYTHING ELSE, for example). The LT1 system is the worst, technically, of all those: people with those cars put the LS1 system on them for an upgrade. You can get all wrapped around the axle about "casting quality" and all that if you want; but bottom line, for a good cheap serviceable reliable easy-to-use setup, go with the LS1.

Anomaly

I was just recently going through this question in my head, and In my opinion the best bang for the buck upgrade is going to be the C5 upgrade... I didn't think the cost was much more than an LS1 setup.. the biggest downside being that they wont fit under stock wheels.

Isn't it awesome working on your car when its -20 out? :P

scooter

iTrader: (11)

I have the setup you are referring to and I would say you would probably get more like a 200% upgrade factor. You lose weight (I used aluminum hubs to further reduce weight) you gain leverage and you gain piston area (not sure how much though). The only "problem" is the price, all in all you will probably spend around $1,200 for that setup. With a few custom parts and the aluminum hubs I spent well over $1,700 for everything but it was completely worth it.
I would agree with the statements about part availablity though. If you are looking for an inexpensive upgrade then I would go with a setup that uses "stock" style replacement parts, like LS1 (or whatever) calipers and rotors that can be bought from the store. My car will probably only see a few thousand miles a year (for now) and is not my daily driver so I did not care as much about replacing parts. The Wilwood pads can be had at most online retailers like Summit and Jegs as can the calipers, really the most difficult part to replace will be the rotor which I think I can get from Coleman racing, and I do not forsee replacing a hat in my lifetime. Other parts in my setup are stock style replacements like the studs, bearings and races.

gearhead0384

iTrader: (7)

I would go with the LS1/corvette brake swap. Its really easy to do, the price is cheap if you get someone parting out an LS1 f body or vette. Performance wise I could not be happier.

Kevin

91_Formula

iTrader: (1)

Thanks everyone for the input it is really helping. It looks like I have it narrowed down to two choices which are divided by cost. The first is the LS1 rotors with Vette calipers. The second is running a full wilwood setup with aluminum hats.

When changing over the brakes like this is it possible to change the back spacing for the front of the car to match the rear? So I can run 4 rims with the same back spacing?

iansane

iTrader: (1)

I generally agree with you about choices, if you're looking for something for a driver get the most common stuff available in case of (well, not really in case of, just when) mishaps occur. Although price a standard c5 rotor vs an ls1 fbody rotor. ~$25 vs ~$60 in the vettes favor, which is odd to me.

askulte

Unless you're fading the brakes, all of the upgrades give small improvements on the braking distance. What the bigger brakes will give you is better heat management. You'll have larger rotors which won't get as hot, so you can push them harder before fade. In street driving where you have one panic stop, the stock brakes don't even fade. Same for drag racing, and autox you can get away with performance pads on a stock setup. The larger rotors and better calipers will give you a better feel for the threshold, so you'll be able to brake (slightly) harder before locking up the tires (even stock brakes will lock up tires).

Once you're doing track days, and pushing the car hard in the brake zones,you'll start to fade the brakes (especially if you run race tires). You'll want to change to racing pads that handle the hotter temps much better than performance street pads (but are very dusty, abrasive, squeal, and don't work when cold). Brake ducts that force the air through the center of the rotor will also help a ton if you're still fading, and finally, the larger rotors have that much more mass that can absorb heat (and thickness, so more air is pumped through), so the max temps will be lower.

Don't forget that larger rotors usually mean more rotating weight, so there's a drawback on a drag car that doesn't do 120 to 70 mph braking once every 10 seconds on a road course.

385thumper

I am very interested in this upgrade.I will be hitting the road coarse this summer and I will undoubtedly need better brakes 'cause that is what wins/saves a race.As to what exactly will I need, spindles, rotors and calipers?Basically a parts list is what I need for a ls1 upgrade.

anthony714

iTrader: (5)

thumper if you cant wait about a month im upgrading my ls1 set up from the front and you can buy all my left over pieces. what i would have is the brackets,abuttments,rotors(drilled slotted zinc coated) and stainless lines. i have hawk pads with about 100 miles on them if youd like.still good. all you would need i the ls1 calipers(available any parts store cheap) the sliding pins(gm dealer,cheap) and a hub for the new slip on rotors. hub can be bought from bigbrake or eb.cheap.if you can machine metal all you need to do is cut down your stock rotor to make the hubs. let me know.grabs some hubs and calipers and you can have ls1 front for hundreds less.these are 12 inch rotors. lmk via pm.